USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense"

[senojekips]

Well,.... there you are,.. if what you say is true, that proves that the Israelis were lying when they said they were unaware of any US vessels in the area,... and knowing that, they are not only duty bound to properly identify the vessel they are about to attack, they also know that it is most likely a US vessel.

I think that you'd better stop now, and think about what you are going to say, before you dig yourself any deeper into trouble. Whatever you say whichever way you twist it, it proves that the Israelis were lying,... and just why were they lying,.....

[SIZE=+1]Israeli Pilot Speaks Up[/SIZE] http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested. Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel. The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

 

[greg2k]

Well,.... there you are,.. if what you say is true, that proves that the Israelis were lying when they said they were unaware of any US vessels in the area,... and knowing that, they are not only duty bound to properly identify the vessel they are about to attack, they also know that it is most likely a US vessel.

I think that you'd better stop now, and think about what you are going to say, before you dig yourself any deeper into trouble. Whatever you say whichever way you twist it, it proves that the Israelis were lying,... and just why were they lying,.....
Israeli Pilot Speaks Up http://www.washington-report.org/bac...93/9306019.htm

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.
http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

If you paid attention there is no name of the israeli pilot here.So what was his name again? I will give you a million dollars for the name.

 

[senojekips]

If you paid attention there is no name of the israeli pilot here.So what was his name again? I will give you a million dollars for the name.

I'll bet you would, Mossad would love to get hold of him. I never said I knew his name.
Obviously Senator McCloskey and those involved do not want you to know either, but that does not show that the information is not true. Witnesses are often protected in this way.

You should read the reports that were not hushed up.

At dawn 8 June, Israeli aircraft began reconnoitering the ship, some flying so close that the pilots could clearly be seen, and as low as masthead height, obviously photographing it. This extensive observation lasted seven hours and involved eight separate observations, at about 0600, 0900, 1000, 1030, 1100, and 1130, 1200 and 1215 p.m. U.S. intercept stations twice overheard Israeli pilots reporting that the ship was American. The visibility conditions were perfect; the ship's American flag was flying free and clear in a good breeze.
At 1400 a well coordinated attack by jet aircraft and torpedo boats began. Jets hammered the virtually unarmed ship with cannon and rockets, and napalmed it. Its forward machine guns were wiped out in the first firing pass, and whatever transmitting antennas survived that pass were disabled by the second. Nine minutes into the attack, crewmen jury rigged a transmitter to an antenna. But the radiomen discovered that four out of five of the ship's radio frequencies, including the international distress frequency, were being jammed. Ironically, the only time Liberty could transmit was while the jets were firing their missiles. A frantic cry for help was sent to the Sixth Fleet, only 400 miles away and off Crete; despite the Israeli jamming, the Liberty's plea for assistance was received. The patchwork transmitting arrangement ceased functioning soon afterward.

Source: http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

But, you don't have to believe me, Try this from Haaretz.

And then one of them said, 'Can you see the flag?' They said 'Yes, it's U.S, it's U.S.' They said it several times, so there wasn't any doubt in anybody's mind that they knew it."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909552.html

 

[greg2k]

I'll bet you would, Mossad would love to get hold of him. I never said I knew his name.
Obviously Senator McCloskey and those involved do not want you to know either, but that does not show that the information is not true. Witnesses are often protected in this way.

You should read the reports that were not hushed up. Source: http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm

But, you don't have to believe me, Try this from Haaretz. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909552.html

Actually Mossad is not interested in finding his name,because his name is well known in Israel.See the post #93

 

[senojekips]

Actually Mossad is not interested in finding his name,because his name is well known in Israel.See the post #93

I'm not interested in his name, just what he said. Is this another very poor attempt at telling lies?

Israeli Brig. Gen. (res.) Yiftah Spector (since retired), who participated in the Liberty attack, agreed to discuss it publicly for the first time. Spector was the first pilot to get to the ship; he identified it as a military vessel that was not Israeli but could not make a specific identification. "My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag. Just to make sure I photographed it," Spector told The Jerusalem Post (Oct. 10, 2003).

and what the pilot that I quoted said, was totally different, so I'd say you are talking about a totally different person.

According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

So,... I think that perhaps it is time for you to start paying attention.;-)

 

[EladBell]

hey lets talk about the Genocide in Africa for once
i thought we went through this havent we?

 

[senojekips]

hey lets talk about the Genocide in Africa for once
i thought we went through this havent we?

One thing at a time,.... some people never learn, that once you bury a very smelly body the first time, you should leave it lie, and never go near it again, to go back and try to cover it up again just makes the cops suspicious.

 

[George]

And since when did the USS Liberty become Egyptian? Or shrink to one third of its size.

You missed the point of my comment. The quote was "An Egyptian vessel has every Right to be in Int waters." I was saying in Int waters it'd be a ligit target, not ligit if in Neutral waters. the original comment seemed to imply that an Egyptian ship should be safe in Int. waters & it wouldn't be, as an enemy vessel. Kinda like the nonsence about the Belgrano.

 

[greg2k]

I think that perhaps it is time for you to start paying attention.;-)

Let's think logicly for a minute.USS Liberty survivors are those who were not satisfied with US Naval Court results and want Congress reinvestigate this case,right?They have Mr Paul McCloskey,who talked to unknown israeli pilot,who recognized the ship as american and refused to attack it,right?Let's see here,according to Wikipedia Paul Norton "Pete" McCloskey Jr. (born September 29, 1927) is a former Republican politician from the U.S. state of California who served in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1967 to 1983. Looks like he is still alive.If unknown israeli pilot was talking to McCloskey 15 years after the attack it will gives us the year of their conversation as 1982.We can see,that in 1982 Mc Closkey was still in Congress. Now,if survivors wanted Congressional investigation, McCloskey would provide a perfect situation to present the case of USS Liberty to the Congress.Why he didn't introduce the israeli pilot to the Congress,why he did not ask to investigate the case in Congress and etc?......That's a Mystery.What McCloskey was doing all these years after conversatioin with pilot in 1982?........That's a Mystery too. What I would suggest to survivors if i could..... to tell McCloskey to disclose the name of a pilot to the Congress as soon as possible,because he is not young already (82-83 years old) and one day can die,like all of us, and would take the name of the unknown pilot with him to the cemetery.

 

[senojekips]

Let's think logicly for a minute.USS Liberty survivors are those who were not satisfied with US Naval Court results and want Congress reinvestigate this case,right?

Yes correct, because they were involved in the incident and could see that there was a coverup going on.

They have Mr Paul McCloskey,who talked to unknown israeli pilot,who recognized the ship as american and refused to attack it,right?Let's see here,according to Wikipedia waPaul Norton "Pete" McCloskey Jr. (born September 29, 1927) is a former Republican politician from the U.S. state of California who served in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1967 to 1983. Looks like he is still alive.If unknown israeli pilot was talking to McCloskey 15 years after the attack it will give us the year of their conversation as 1982.We can see,that in 1982 Mc Closkey was still in Congress. Now the is,if survivors wanter Congressional investigation, McCloskey would provide a perfect situation to present the case of USS Liberty to the Congress.Why he didn't introduce the israeli pilot to the Congress,why he did not ask to investigate the case in Congress and etc?......Mystery.What McCloskey is doing all these years after

Who said that he did not want to do these things? But knowing the extent to which the navy and their poloitical masters had gone to to suppress the evidence previously, he realised that it would be of little use. (See the Bold paragraph below)

It is known that there was high level support for the Liberty crew's story, yet so many questions were not asked and evidence was suppressed in the investigation
Admiral Kidd, USN

They also point out that the claim the ship was mistaken for an old Egyptian freighter is absurd. As an intelligence ship it was loaded with antennas and carried a large satellite dish on an elevated structure near the stern. It was four times as large as an old Egyptian freighter, and its identification numbers were painted on the bow in white letters 10 feet high.
If the numbers couldn't be seen by the Israeli pilots, they could not have been missed by the torpedo boats that fired on the lifeboats deployed by the Liberty

http://www.rense.com/general47/kidd.htm

Adlai Stevenson:

][/SIZE]Almost immediately, the government of Israel contacted the White House and offered to settle the outstanding $40-million damage claims for $6-million -- an amount equal to one dollar for each Jewish victim of the Holocaust. Vice President Walter Mondale quickly agreed to that offer just before Christmas while Congress and President Carter were on vacation. The Department of State followed immediately with a press release, reported on the front page of the New York Times, which announced, "The book is now closed on the USS Liberty." Indeed, from that point on, it was impossible to generate any congressional interest in the Liberty at all. Senator Stevenson's staff told me later that they felt the settlement was directly related to Senator Stevenson's announced plan to hold an inquiry, and was engineered to block forever any inquiry plans.

Source: http://www.ussliberty.org/adlai.htm

This is obviously a political cover up.

What I would suggest to survivors if i can..... to tell McCloskey to disclose the name of a pilot to the Congress as soon as possible,because he is not young already (82-83 years old) and one day can die,like all of us, and take the name of the unknown pilot with him to the cemetery.

I think that the last person the survivors would be taking advice from is an Israeli, Do the Jewish people ask advice on how to investigate the Holocaust from supporters of German War Criminals? And what exactly do you think this would achieve? The facts are already available for all to read, and anyone but those who want to hide the true story can easily see the truth.

At the investigation ther were 14 crew witnesses called, do you realise how hard it is to get 14 different people all to tell the same story. In Police investigations it is known that it is almost impossible for only two people to tell the same story unless they are telling the truth.

It has been very clearly shown both in this thread and elsewhere, that the Israelis were lying about almost every detail of the attack.

 

[greg2k]

If you refer to me as israeli,i am not.I am american jewish zionist.And you are right,zionist should not give any advice or saggestions to these antisemitic panks from USS Liberty ship ,who had a nerve to accuse Israel of war crimes.Let them rote
in their own world of lies and dreams and imaginations.Israel closed this case and long time ago.

 

[senojekips]

If you refer to me as israeli,i am not.I am american jewish zionist.And you are right,zionist should not give any advice or saggestions to these antisemitic panks from USS Liberty ship ,who had a nerve to accuse Israel of war crimes.Let them rote
in their own world of lies and dreams and imaginations.Israel closed this case and long time ago.

Ahhh,... even worse.

I have a close relative who is mentioned on this forum who is frequently quoted as Australia's leading Zionist, I have a good understanding now of why you are so blind to the truth. It was your poor use of the English language that made me believe that perhaps you were an Israeli. My apologies to the real Israelis.

I'll bet Israel closed it's case a long time ago,... they never wanted it to be found out in the first place,.... but like all great lies, you can't keep them hidden for long.

I would venture to say that you are certainly not US born and bred you may live in America, but you are definitely not an "American",... not with your attitude towards US service personnel. I am not even American, but I would never refer to US Service Personnel as Panks??? (punks?) You are a disgrace to the country where you live.

these antisemitic panks from USS Liberty ship ,who had a nerve to accuse Israel of war crimes. Let them rote in their own world of lies and dreams and imaginations.

Like I said,... at least all of their stories are in agreement, totally unlike those of the Israelis. It's very easy to determine who the liars are.

That is the inconvenience of truth, once it is out, it can't be put back in the box.:wink:

 

[MontyB]

If you refer to me as israeli,i am not.I am american jewish zionist.And you are right,zionist should not give any advice or saggestions to these antisemitic panks from USS Liberty ship ,who had a nerve to accuse Israel of war crimes.Let them rote
in their own world of lies and dreams and imaginations.Israel closed this case and long time ago.

Hang on sec, even though I really don't see the point in this argument as we all know what happened but for some reason we have 16 pages none of which tell us why it happened, you have opened a can of worms in you somewhat vigorous defense of this action in that it is a crime to attack an unidentified ship in international waters.

Just for shits and giggles look at the outcry when the Russians shot down a Korean airliner that was within its air space so why do you think Israel (or anyone else for that matter) should get away with attacking an unidentified ship in international waters?

 

[greg2k]

so why do you think Israel (or anyone else for that matter) should get away with attacking an unidentified ship in international waters?

And did Israel get away? Was not Israel the first side who admitted the attack?Was not Israel apologized for the attack? Did not Israel pay reparations to US Government and families of the victims?What else the survivor wants?They want recognition as a heroes?I dont see anything heroic in their action,they were on the service and accident happend.People die in accidents all over the world,and military personnel are dying in accidents,sometimes from the hands of their compatriots.It is said.Can we call them heroes?
But the fact is many sailors of USS LiBERTY were rewarded by medals.So USA did not leave them in vain.
But there is very important moment in all this story.Some survivors (not all)
were not satisfied with the results of investigation and still present there claims to US Government,US NAVY,NSA,CIA and others,for forgering and hiding important information.Fine,if they want to continue they can continue,this is their business.But if I see that they dont have any valid facts behind their claims should I support them? Should I support the victims of accidents and call them heroes just becaise they happened to be in military uniform? Should I believe everything what they are saying and claiming simply they happened to be in military uniform? The answer is no,I must not.There are many liers,chiters,robbers and simply killers everywhere,including people who happened to be wearing military uniform.
Without facts I must believe them i suppoort them.And this is not my own position,this is the position of the US Government,which includes an independent judiciary sytem,based on the Constitution of USA.
There is another aspect to this story.USS Liberty survivors accused the State of Israel in war Crimes during the incident.This accusation itself represents a very serious claim.First of all if the case was officially closed by two Governments it is already a violation of a Judiciary system to reopen it,without all parties agreed(including State of Israel) .Secondly,new evedence must be presented to the Court,to officially reopen it.Thirdly,all claimants( in this case survivors of USS Liberty) can be punishable by the US
Judiciary system or the Judiciary system of the State of Israel,if they provide forgery and fabrication,instead of the facts.
So,survivors have a freedom in their action,They can go to any US Court,any foreign Court(Imcluding International Human Right Court) and present their Case against US Government,against any organization in the USA,againts any individual or group of people in ther USA or against the State of Israel.

 

[senojekips]

And did Israel get away?

Not yet,... they tried as hard as they could to make it look like an accident, but they didn't count on there being any survivors, which sort of mucked up their alibi.

Was not Israel the first side who admitted the attack? Was not Israel apologized for the attack? Did not Israel pay reparations to US Government and families of the victims?

Who else could admit to it, the israelis were caught red handed.
If the attack on Pearl harbour would have been a failure, I doubt that an apology would have been enough.
Reparations were estimated at $40million, Israel paid $6million which did not even cover the cost of repairs to the vessel.

What else the survivor wants? They want recognition as a heroes?I dont see anything heroic in their action,they were on the service and accident happend.People die in accidents all over the world,and military personnel are dying in accidents,sometimes from the hands of their compatriots.It is said.Can we call them heroes?

They want the truth, because it is obvious that the truth is being hidden,... why?
This was not an accident though as we can see by the Israeli lies that have been uncovered. They don't want to be heroes, they just want Israel to pay for its treachery.

But the fact is many sailors of USS LiBERTY were rewarded by medals.So USA did not leave them in vain.

If I murdered your family, would you be satisfied with a medal?

But there is very important moment in all this story.Some survivors (not all) were not satisfied with the results of investigation and still present there claims to US Government,US NAVY,NSA,CIA and others,for forgering and hiding important information.Fine,if they want to continue they can continue,this is their business.

Please name those who were satisfied with the investigation. I cannot find mention of one crew member who was happy with the findings.

.USS Liberty survivors accused the State of Israel in war Crimes during the incident.

Here's why,...

Gotcher was an Air Force intelligence officer in Vietnam in 1967 and is one of three intelligence officers who were in different parts of the world at the time. Independent of each other they signed sworn affidavits that they saw intelligence messages saying the USS Liberty was under attack by Israeli aircraft in the Mediterranean.

Lloyd Painter, Officer of the Deck on the USS Liberty and retired secret service agent of 24 years testified that his statement mentioned in the report, that the Israeli torpedo boat crews machine gunned the USS Liberty inflatable life boats was removed from the final report that was submitted in 1967.

Captain Ward Boston, a JAG (Naval Legal) Officer involved with the initial inquiry and retired FBI agent examined the original copy of the Court of Inquiry record released under the Freedom of Information Act and declared it a fraud. It is not the record I certified and submitted in 1967, says Captain Boston.

 

[MontyB]

And did Israel get away? Was not Israel the first side who admitted the attack?Was not Israel apologized for the attack? .

Yes they did get away with it as no one was made accountable for it.

See here is the bit you keep ignoring and this is the crew of the Liberty itself, Governments will sell anyone down the road for political expediency and I suspect that the Liberty's crew feel that this is what has happened to them, it was the peak of the cold war had the USA responded then they ran the risk of losing an "ally" to the Russian sphere of influence so the loss of a few crew members was considered a small price to pay.

Like it or not when you are on the wrong end of an unwarranted action of that magnitude no amount of apologies are going to suffice.

Tell me what do you think would have happened had the Liberty been attacked by the Egyptian Air Force and Navy in international waters?

I am prepared to bet that all hell would have broken loose.

 

[greg2k]

I never asked you about your age,how old are you? I am 56,I was born in Russia,in Moscow.And what is your profession,I look at the picture here,very nice picture,is it yours?Do you work in mine?I heard there is a lot of Gold in Australia.Well....anyway let me tell you something from my life.After graduating from college ( i have 2 year Associate degree as electrical technician) I worked on different construction projects in Moscow.In the early 1970s one day my Boss calle me up in his office and told me:"You know Grigory(this is my russian name) You know he said,we got requests from the Department of War to send good technicians to Africa.I asked him :Comrade Ivan why I should go to Africa and for what reason? He said:"Because the Party want to send the best people to Africato help them to build communism.So to make the story short they sent me to Africa,to Angola.There was a civil war in Angola at the time.Socialist Government of Angola was fighting with rebels,supported by capitalist regime of South Africa.I was helping the Government to bring electrical lights to poor villages in Angola.So one day I was working with electrical bulbs and postman did deliver a big envelop to me.I looked at the envelop and on the cover it was Written in Big Russian letters "Top Secret".I looked at the adsress from were the envelop came,it was from Moscow,Department of War.So ok I opened envelop and in there it was a little letter and a photo.I started with the letter.That what it said.Dear Grigory.Department of War is very pleased of your work in Angola,helping Socialist Government of Angola with their uneasy tasks.Let us assure you that in other part of the World in Vietnam we also very succesfully fighting with american capitalists,amd helping our communist brothers VietKong.Sending you photo of pants.After you see the photo immediately destroy it.because it is very top secret document.I looked at the photo and on the Photo there were green soldiers pants,with red stripes on the sides and full of brown KAKA.There was a lable on the pants in english language and the number: Gotcher #35498274.I was looking at the picture maybe 2-3 minutes and after that destroyed it accoording to the instructions from Moscow.In Angola I was 4 months and after that was recalled back to Russia to work on very important government project.Luckely I was not even wounded in Angola.I am telling you this story about my Life,because,when you told me about Gotcher I recalled my work in Angola and secret mail with photo I once saw there.I am swear I saw this photo of green pants,full of brown Kaka with Gotcher name on them and number.To prove to you that I saw them i can put my name here Gregory Pritzker (this is my name) I understand now why America lost the war in Vietnam,I saw the Gotcher pants.

 

[senojekips]

I am 62, and retired. By profession, I am many things, I have been a Professional Shooter, Refrigeration Mechanic, Marine Engineer (Class 2, Steam and Diesel) and finally Marine Operations manager for a HK Shipping company.
The photo is of me at Wally's Hope Gold Mine, which I owned and operated for 9 years as a hobby.

Grigory I have employed Russian Mechanical and Electrical Engineers both at sea and in Vladivosto/Nakhodka, for a number of years, and have a small insight into the Russian psyche, however your logic completely escapes me on this occasion, having only a very very tenuous link to the subject.

 

[greg2k]

Thank you very much for info.I hope my little story brought smile to your face,if not... sorry.That what i think about Gotcher and his affidavite and all other affidavites of survuvors and their supporters.You see i have my own affidadavite,not worse than his.If you,as you said, escaped my logic you can ask me what you did not understand.So after this funny moment (I think all people in serious business need one from time to time) we can go back to business.Let me tell you this thing..... all these websites on internet and quotes from them i saw 4 or 5 years ago when i started my own inverstigation about USS Liberty,I personally wrote a letter to Mr Ennes and asked him several questions,he readressed me to another person i could speak to,So i understood,he did not want to talk to me,probably millions of people were writing to him with questions,so I left him alone.I made a website www.usslibertyship.8m.com were I tried chronologically to restore the events,based on the book of A.J.Cristol "Liberty Incident" and compared what happened at different time during incident.I would be glad if you take a look at website and if you have any questions we can discuss them here.
I am telling you these,because info and quotes that you brought in the forum were nor new to me, i passed them long time ago,and thats why i knew about Gotcher and captain Boston and McCloskey and others and what all of them said.To any person with common mind it is clear that all these people have no facts.I also realized that you never read the Naval Court of Inquiry Text.You can read it,it is available on the website www.ussliberty.org. I spent a lot of time in this forum,and I cannot go around same things time and time again.I am interested in something new,new facts,that can really bring new element into discussion.So far I saw nothing new.So captain Boston is saying text of naval Court of inquiry was not the same as original text? Fine,so you understand that in this case he commited a crime by keeping all this info from american people for so many years.right?So now the question is were is the original text that Boston did sign?Did he keep the copy of original text of the Naval Court what he sign? No answer.
Captain Ward Boston,a legal adviser to a military Board of inquiry investigating the attack on the Liberty died in 2008 at the age of 84.
So what to do next?Maybe you know the answer,about where we can find the original text that Boston signed?

 

[senojekips]

Like Lt Ennes, I also could not answer all of the questions that you pose in your website, Nor have I ever read the entire transcript of the inquest.

But I have read much of the information regarding the statements of the crew which all seem to say that for some reason there has been a diplomatic cover up and the matter was swept under the rug with indecent haste. As time has gone by, more and more information has come to light as people who saw or were aware of what happened through their access to Confidential information at the time, have been relieved of their obligations under the Acts regarding the secrecy of that information, and to this end they have signed affidavits stating that the evidence was suppressed and records changed.

At least three of the persons concerned have no personal involvement, but only saw the information as a result of their jobs in the Intelligence sector.

So many lies have been uncovered, nearly all of which indicate that there was absolutely no possibility that the attack could not have been a case of mistaken identity.

If it was only one or two persons who made these claims I could understand it, but nearly every survivor has made statements declaring that their evidence was either suppressed or changed after it has been submitted, this includes many people involved in the Intelligence Service and a Captain in the Judge Advocate General's Department. These persons would be well aware of the seriousness of making a false statement, especially where the outcome of the hearing has no bearing on them personally.