USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense"

[senojekips]

There are more than enough inconsistencies in the Israeli story to keep every conspiracy theorist in credible material for a long long time.

Also enough evidence to satisfy most people with an enquiring mind, that everything is not as rosy as it is painted.

I have little doubt that it was deliberate, but as to why,.... Well, you'll have to find an Israeli who is willing to tell the truth of the matter. Good Luck.

My personal theory is that the Israelis hoped, that being virtually an unarmed vessel, they could sink it very quickly and blame the Egyptians, thereby dragging the US into actively fighting the war on their side.

 

[greg2k]

So good luck to the survivors of USS Liberty,if they still can bring anything new,they can do what they want.
In May 1968, Israel paid US$3,323,500 as full payment on behalf of the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969 Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980 Israel agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the US claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.[3]
On December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes

 

[senojekips]

So good luck to the survivors of USS Liberty,if they still can bring anything new,they can do what they want.

It's not hard to see what your agenda is here, is it? Hardly what I would expect to hear from a genuine US citizen. A typical Israeli viewpoint, where they only respect the USA so long as they are of use to them, this arrogant disregard for the US was also seen in the recent affair where the Israelis were asked to stop illegal settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Another good reason why the US should cut Israel loose.

 

[greg2k]

It's not hard to see what your agenda is here, is it? Hardly what I would expect to hear from a genuine US citizen.

I dont understand what you mean.I simply said good luck to the survivors if they can bring anything new.Are you a supporter of survivors claims? Do you have any new evidence to the case? If yes,bring it here ,and we will discuss it.

 

[senojekips]

I dont understand what you mean.I simply said good luck to the survivors if they can bring anything new.Are you a supporter of survivors claims? Do you have any new evidence to the case? If yes,bring it here ,and we will discuss it.

I have already stated my views, and for me the argument is solved. We already know what probably happened.

Your views in my mind are at least highly disrespectful of the dead, and at worst treasonous Israeli propaganda, and I'm neither a US citizen nor an admirer of many US policies.

 

[greg2k]

I have already stated my views, and for me the argument is solved. We already know what probably happened.

Your views in my mind are at least highly disrespectful of the dead, and at worst treasonous Israeli propaganda, and I'm neither a US citizen nor an admirer of many US policies.

So in this case we can say there is no new evidence to the case.And yes I am US citizen and you accusing me of what?Treazon?You telling me you know my agenda? Does this forum has a special agenda that all of us must follow and support?And if you dont like my views so it means you have your views and your agenda right?And you are saying you are not admirer of many US policies and still I dont accuss you in anything wrong.Please dont lower the duscussion of issues and bring it on the personal level.

 

[senojekips]

Please dont lower the duscussion of issues and bring it on the personal level.

And why not? It's all some idiots can understand.

Read Post 101, end of story.

 

[greg2k]

There are more than enough inconsistencies in the Israeli story to keep every conspiracy theorist in credible material for a long long time.

Also enough evidence to satisfy most people with an enquiring mind, that everything is not as rosy as it is painted.

I have little doubt that it was deliberate, but as to why,.... Well, you'll have to find an Israeli who is willing to tell the truth of the matter. Good Luck.

My personal theory is that the Israelis hoped, that being virtually an unarmed vessel, they could sink it very quickly and blame the Egyptians, thereby dragging the US into actively fighting the war on their side.

Lets say the attack was deliberate to sink the ship.The question is what prevented israelis to finish the job?They did not have weapons?No they have enough air power to attack Syria on the next day.Maybe they did not have enough time? If we start to count hous from 6 AM to lets say 4 pm we will have 10 hours in their possesion to sink the ship.Maybe israelis did not have enough torpedos?No they have 3 motor boats with 6 torpedoes on each and they used only 5,right? So they still had 13 left unused.So what did not let Israel to put the USS Liberty to the bottom of the sea? Israelis could not sink WWII in 2 hours?Maybe you know why?And why Japan in attack on Pearl Harbor with old weaponry in 90 minuts managed to deliver such a tremendous damage to US armored fleet and Israel with new weaponry could not sink a single unarmored ship in 2 hours? I think you know,so tell me why?You are telling about inconsistencies in Israeli story.......let me tell you about one inconsistency......Jim Enness in his book 'Attack on Liberty' was telling about unidentified planes attacking USS Liberty, and look here what another survivor is saying: http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,43090.story 'Then the jets started shooting at the officers and enlisted men stretched out on the deck for a lunch-hour sun bath. Theodore Arfsten, a quartermaster, remembered watching a Jewish officer cry when he saw the blue Star of David on the planes' fuselages. At first, crew members below decks had no idea whose planes were shooting at their ship 'So now I want to ask you a question. Who is lying?Jim Enness or Theodore Arfsten together with jewish officer on the ship ,who saw Star of David on attacking airplanes?Do you know who was the jewish officer on USS Liberty who was crying? And why Lt Jim Ennes who intentionaly said that israeli attacking planes where without any markings, on the cover of his book 'Assalt on Liberty' put Star of David on the jetswings? Do you know why?Can you tell me the jets which attacked USS Liberty June 8 at 2 PM were marked or unmarked?

 

[MontyB]

Ok a couple of things...
1) Please space out your sentences more it is really hard to read half a dozen paragraphs as one long sentence.

2) I would suggest that the second the order to attack the vessel was given their aim was to sink it, I don't imagine for a second the orders read "take off and drop just enough ordinance to kill a few people but not enough to sink the ship".

You also overlooked one other possible scenario, the Israelis just weren't good enough to sink the vessel before it could alert the outside world.

As for the rest I am not sure I understand your point about crying jewish officers etc.

 

[greg2k]

I would suggest that the second the order to attack the vessel was given their aim was to sink it, I don't imagine for a second the orders read "take off and drop just enough ordinance to kill a few people but not enough to sink the ship".

You also overlooked one other possible scenario, the Israelis just weren't good enough to sink the vessel before it could alert the outside world.

As for the rest I am not sure I understand your point about crying jewish officers etc.

The order usually is permission to attack,which basically means in the time of war -'attack to kill'.Israelis sent 5 torpedoes to sink the ship it is clear.With one torpedo hit,the ship miracuously was still afloat.Captain McGonagle realized that the ship was not sinking, but was worring about possible another torpedo attack.He knew that one more torpedo hit would be the end to the ship.So why israelis did not sent another torpedo toward the ship? Do you know?It should be a reason why they did not do this. USS Liberty was sending messages to 6 th fleet open text,israelis by all means were reading them.From Liberty messages we know that they did not know the identity of attacking planes and motor boats.The very first message that israeli helicopters were involed was received at 4.12 PM --------------------------------
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]1412Z 08 June 1967 transmitted message text from[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Naval Communications Station, Morocco to[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Naval Forces Europe[/FONT]

C O N F I D E N T I A L
1. USS LIBERTY UNABLE TO IDENTIFY ATTACKING BOATS
RIOUSEEEEEEEEEE BOATS AFTER ATTACK HELICOPTER CIRCLED THE SHIP
BELIEVED TO BE ISRAELIE.
BT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------From the time of this message we can figure out that israelis had full 2 hours to sink the ship,but according to the text of Naval Court of Inquiry after the torpedo hit the ship there was no shouting.So why there was no shooting after torpedo hit at 2.34 PM till 4.12 PM the time of the message?It should be a reason why.------------------------------------ P.S. Text of the message is exactly as recorded.

 

[MontyB]

I suspect they stopped the attack once it became apparent that the Liberty had established communications with the rest of the fleet and that sinking the ship once it was impossible for them to deny that the knew the identity of the ship would have been an act of war.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make though, it seems you are trying to insinuate that either the Liberty started it by firing on the Israeli's or that the Israeli's were just playing with the Liberty either way I would suggest that neither account is accurate.

That the Israeli's attacked the Liberty is not denied by any side the only thing people do not understand or accept in its entirety is the official reasons for the attack.

 

[greg2k]

I suspect they stopped the attack once it became apparent that the Liberty had established communications with the rest of the fleet and that sinking the ship once it was impossible for them to deny that the knew the identity of the ship would have been an act of war.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make though, it seems you are trying to insinuate that either the Liberty started it by firing on the Israeli's or that the Israeli's were just playing with the Liberty either way I would suggest that neither account is accurate.

That the Israeli's attacked the Liberty is not denied by any side the only thing people do not understand or accept in its entirety is the official reasons for the attack.

And now the reason why israelis stoped the attack.We will go back to the timetable of events and who said what.-------------------------------
Commander William L. McGonagle
--------------------------------
When the boats reached an approximate range
of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was
signaling to us. Also, at this range, it appeared that they
were flying an Israeli flag. This was later verified. It
was not possible to read the signals from the center torpedo
boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke
and flames. 1430-31 1230-31 0830-31
MTBs commence attack run after permission to do so from Naval HQ is granted. The MTB
Division 914 War Log records “detected firing flashes” at 1435, identification of the ship as the
El Quiser at 1437, and attack commencing at 1440.
Dispatched IAF helicopters are informed they are heading towards an attacked “warship.” [NSA
audio tapes.]
1434 1234 0834
One torpedo passed astern logged by Liberty. [US Naval Court of Inquiry/Exhibit 27:
The Liberty Incident Time Line Page 25 of 56
Chronology of Events; USS Liberty Deck Log, 8 June 1967.]
IAF HQ is informed that the ship is “an Egyptian supply boat” by IAF Regional Control Central
based on the information passed by the navy. [IAF audio tapes.] Dispatched IAF helicopters are
informed the vessel is “now identified as Egyptian. You can return home now.” [NSA audio
tapes.]
1435 TORPEDO HIT STARBOARD SIDE AMIDSHIPS. TWENTY SIX MEN
DIED AS A RESULT OF THE TORPEDO HIT AND MTB STRAFING FIRE. (ship log)

1440 MTB'S STANDING AWAY FROM THE SHIP. ONE MTB HAS HULL NUMBER 206-17 (ship log)
LT.Lucas
---------
I can recall no further firing from
either side after that time. The Commanding Officer
hollered "cease fire", and it was approximately at this time
the patrol craft were bearing approximately 160 relative.
One of them was trying to signal us. The smoke from the
motor whaleboat almost completely obscured the patrol craft
from us. There was a second class signalman, DAVID, on the
starboard wing. None of us were able to determine what the
signaling was - the smoke was too intense. Shortly after
that, another patrol craft approached us from the starboard
side and did manage to get clear of the smoke. The
signalman took the message, "do you need help? ". The
Commanding Officer told signalman DAVID to give a negative
reply. We still did not know the identity of the patrol
craft itself other than the fact than we had gotten the hull
number earlier.

It was also a matter of identification.
We, ourselves, were asking the question, "Who made the
attacks?", "And why?".
Q. Do you recall that the patrol boats strafed the ship
after the torpedo attack, and if so, how many times?

A. Sir, I cannot honestly answer that.
Q. To the best of your recollection, after the motor
torpedo boats signaled, were there any further attacks from
them?

A. No, there were not. After this first signaling, I
don't believe so. After they signaled "do you need help?",
and we answered in the negative, I am positive there were no
more attacks after that time.
Q. With regard to the signal from the torpedo boats, when
did you first observe the signaling, with respect to the
torpedo attack?

A. The first signaling that I observed was the unsuccessful
attempts to determine what they were signaling us, and of
course, we did not have a chance to answer back to them.
This was after the torpedo attacks. The only other signaling
that I recall seeing is when we did successfully receive
their message and sent a negative answer to it.


Lt.Painter
------------
...after that we had our first torpedo attack. It came
over, well the 1MC was out, it came over the sound powered
phones, "prepare for torpedo attack starboard side." So, we
prepared for a torpedo attack starboard side, which we
received in midships. I can't say exactly what time it was,
maybe 1435. Well, the ship at this time as soon as the
torpedo hit midships, we began to develop a starboard list
very quickly. So quickly that I felt as though we were
probably going to lose it. At this time, the DC central
passed the word to prepare to abandon ship. We then filed
out to our life rafts which were no longer with us because
they had been strafed and most of them were burned, so we
knocked most of them over the side. At this time the
torpedo boats, three of them, that had torpedoed us, were
laying off, waiting for us to sink, I believe. Anyway, they
didn't come near us at this time.


1451 1251 0851
The MTBs report that ship might be Russian: “Based on writing on back [stern] of vessel.” [MTB
Division 914 War Log.]

1456 1256 0856
IAF HQ is informed that the dispatched IAF helicopters will be asked to determine the language
of the sailors picked up. [IAF audio tapes.]

1458 1258 0858
The IAF helicopters are instructed to determine the nationality of the first man picked up and to
report immediately. [NSA audio tapes.]

1503 ONE MTB RETURNED TO SHIP AND SIGNALLED "DO YOU NEED
HELP" IN ENGLISH C.O. SIGNALLED "NEGATIVE" (ship log)
see next posting

 

[greg2k]

Commander William L. McGonagle
--------------------------------
Immediately after the ship
was struck by the torpedo, the torpedo boats stopped dead in
the water and milled around astern of the ship at a range of
approximately 500 to 8?0 yards. One of the boats signaled
by flashing light, in English, "do you require assistance"?
We had no means to communicate with the boat by light but
hoisted code lima india. The signal intended to convey the
fact that the ship was maneuvering with difficulty and that
they should keep clear.
1503 1303 0903
Israeli MTBs offered assistance by flashing light to Liberty. Assistance is declined. [USS Liberty
Deck Log, 8 June 1967; US Naval Court of Inquiry/Exhibit 27: Chronology of Events.] The Navy
HQ War Log reports MTB Division 914 “closely approaching in order to identify the vessel” at
1505.
The MTBs record two helicopters are coming. [MTB Division 914 War Log.]
The IAF helicopters report coming up on three small vessels and one large vessel. They are
informed the three small vessels are “ours.” [NSA audio tapes.]

1504 1304 0904
IAF Command records nationality of the ship is not established. [IAF audio tapes.] One of the
dispatched IAF helicopters has established communications with the MTBs. [NSA audio tapes.]



see next posting





1505 1305 0905
Sixth Fleet transmitted over the Hi-Com HF voice net "SENDING AIRCRAFT TO COVER
YOU. SURFACE UNITS ON THE WAY." [Naval Historical Center: DTG 081305Z June 1967,
COMSIXTHFLT to Liberty.]
IAF Command records helicopters are approaching the ship. [IAF audio tapes.]



1506 1306 0906
The IAF helicopters are instructed to determine the language of any men picked up. If they speak
Arabic, take them to El Arish. If English, to Lod airport. [NSA audio tapes.]

1512 1312 0912
IAF Command records that the identification of the ship is American. The helicopters are
requested to double-check.[IAF and NSA audio tapes; CIA Report SC No. 01415/67, 13 June
1967.] The IDF Navy HQ War Log reports this events as 1513.

1514 1314 0914
IAF HQ is informed “it’s an American flag.” The helicopters are instructed to “return home.”[IAF
and NSA audio tapes.]

 

[greg2k]

So now we can see how the possible identity of the ship was changing from 2.30 PM to 3.12 PM
14.30 PM Torpedo attack on ship identified as military ship
14.34 PM Ship identified as El Quiser supply boat
14.51 PM The ship maybe russian
15.12 PM The ship identified as american--------------------------------------------------- This explaines why israelis stoped the attack after they sent torpedoes.First they were sure they attack military ship.Then they thought maybe the ship is transport boat El Quseir and they were waiting to peek up survivors.Them they started to think maybe they hit russian ship and by thinking this there feeling was awfull at least to say.Finally the helicopter pilot saw american flag and it became clear that the ship was american.Lets compare what Lt J Ennes was saying: 15.15 'When Liberty miraculously remained afloat with a 40-foot hole in her belly, the torpedomen methodically machine-gunned exposed fire fighters and medical personnel for much of the next 40 minutes while watching the ship sink lower in the water. Finally, at 1515, after word came from the bridge to prepare to abandon ship, Liberty crewmen launched three rubber rafts and tied them astern. The torpedomen machine-gunned the empty rafts, plucked one out of the water, and set a course for their base at Ashdod'. We can see how Ennes lying and changing the report of the Naval Inquiry court. And that what happened next:
Commander William L. McGonagle
--------------------------------

About 1515,
two helicopters approached the ship and circled around and
around the ship at a distance of about 100 yards. The
ensignia the Star of David was clearly visible. Hull number
on one of the helicopters was 04 or D4. The other had a
hull number of 08 or D8. It was not known whether these
helicopters intended to strafe the ship or not. However,
they did not approach the ship in a hostile manner, but kept
pointed parallel to the ship as they continued around and
never made a direct approach as such. They were not taken
under fire by Liberty, nor did they fire at us. The torpedo
boats left the general area of the ship at about 1515.
About 1537, after they had departed the ship and gone to a
range of about five miles, they again headed toward the ship
at high speed. Their intentions were unknown. At about this
same time two unidentified jet aircraft were also noted
approaching the ship from our starboard side, in similar
fashion to that which preceded the initial attack. All
hands were again alerted to the possibility of repeated
attacks. No attacks occurred however, and the jets
disappeared from the scene.
...Several life rafts, however, were released and
placed into the water by various crew members whom I was
unable to communicate with prior to their placing the boats
in the water. They exercised their initiative on the scene,
and no fault can be found with their estimate, not having
the information that I had. When the messenger was sent to
tell them to leave the lifeboats alone, that the ship was in
no danger of sinking at that time, but that the lifeboats
might be needed at a later time, no additional lifeboats
were placed in the water. Misinterpretation of the
situation by personnel in combat following the order to
prepare for torpedo attack to starboard also resulted in the
ship's radar being purposely destroyed. Again, I find no
fault with this action under the circumstances.

LT.Painter
------------
After we had gotten underway, an Israeli helicopter
came out and asked us if we wanted aid; well, they didn't
ask us, they just came along side and acted like they wanted
to help, but we waved them off.


1520 1320 0920
MTB Division 914 Commander advises Navy HQ at Stella Maris that ship is identified as
American and fires are under control. [IDF History Department/MTB Division War Log.]

Now we understand that israelis stoped the attack after they sent torpedoes at appx. 14.35 PM not because they were afraid that USS Liberty is disclosing the identity of attacker to the 6 th fleet,but because they were doubting about identity of the ship they were attacking.Obviously they did not know the identity of the ship till 15.12 pm

 

[captiva303]

right so the u.s navy personal are supposed to forget the fact that the people who are now offering them help were just trying to finish them off repeatedly...
if i were one of them i may have even of thought this might be a ploy to finish us off again...

 

[MontyB]

I have to admit I do not understand the point he is trying to make here, we know what happened we just don't know why it happened.

As I have said i do not accept the conspiracy theories involving the US and Israeli governments as I consider them far fetched to say the least but at the same time I do not believe Israeli contention that they could not identify the ship during the 10 hours they were attacking it, I can accept one or two mistakes in communication but there where just too many "whoops my bad" type incidents for me to believe that story.

 

[captiva303]

agreed... and all those mistakes made cannot amount to a long string of coincidences because that amounts to incompetence on the part of the Israelis which they are most certainly not incompetent...

 

[senojekips]

I do not believe Israeli contention that they could not identify the ship during the 10 hours they were attacking it, I can accept one or two mistakes in communication but there where just too many "whoops my bad" type incidents for me to believe that story.

As usual Monty, you've missed the most obvious answer. Maybe they were being attacked in Braille?

It was noted by the spooks at NSA, that the 2/45th Flying Guide Dogs were in the area at the time and no one has given a credible alibi for them.

 

[greg2k]

I am simply showing in the forum that Lt J Ennes and other survivor claims don't match with the findings and testimonies of the Naval Court of Inquiry and NSA tapes releases.My point is they are creating their stories without any factual support.For example survivors claim the duration of attack on USS Liberty was two hours,when the facts are telling us that actual attack by the aircrafts was approx.12 minutes and attack by the MTB's approx.5-10 minutes,what gives us total combine duration of attack 17-22 minutes maximum.

 

[MontyB]

You know I have one view on these claims and that is that the survivors were there and the Naval Court of Inquiry and NSA were not.

The fact remains that whether the attack lasted 1 minute or 1 week it still happened and there is enough evidence to verify the ferocity and intent of the attack so all we really need to know is why it took place.