Thoughts on the Russo-Ukranian War?

I3BrigPvSk said:
The last time I saw reactive armor on a western vehicle was during the first Gulf War when the M60 tanks used by the US Marine Corps had reactive armor, so no. I haven't seen any western made vehicles with reactive armor in Ukraine. Reactive armor is a Soviet/Russian thing to reduce the effect of HEAT rounds, it has a lesser effect on SABOT rounds which use kinetic energy to penetrate armor.

Modern western armor vehicles use composite armor, the first one to use is the Leo2 and the Challenger 1, the composite armor is also called Chobham armor because the British was the guys who invented it.
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I probably should have been clearer, not long after the Leopards started arriving in Ukraine I am sure I saw a picture of an L2A4 (I think) decked out in Kontakt-1 reactive armour but I haven't seen anything of it since.

I am just wondering why that was never pursued further.
 
George said:
How embarrassing it must be to have to have Iran build something as simple as a drone factory. How far they've slid.
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I am not sure they have slid at all, Russia has always been largely over-hyped.

Who doesn't remember the stories of the T-95 that pretty much had everything from torpedo tubes to take out NATO submarines and Jet engines so it could keep up with the F-16.

Russia has always been a nation of serfs ruled by kleptomaniacs and I don't honestly think it has changed one bit since Ivan the Terrible.
 
MontyB said:
I probably should have been clearer, not long after the Leopards started arriving in Ukraine I am sure I saw a picture of an L2A4 (I think) decked out in Kontakt-1 reactive armour but I haven't seen anything of it since.

I am just wondering why that was never pursued further.
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Modern western tanks can have additional armor. The M1A2 Tusk comes to mind, I google Leo2s with additional armor and found a picture of a Greek Leo2 with ot. I add two pics with a Leo2 and a M1A2 with additional armor
 

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MontyB said:
Russia has always been a nation of serfs ruled by kleptomaniacs and I don't honestly think it has changed one bit since Ivan the Terrible.
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This has NOTHING to do with the military situation in Ukraine .
Besides : one can say the same about Ukraine and a lot of Western states .
And was Britain not a nation of serfs ruled by kleptomaniacs in the time of Robin Hood ?
The Russian Czars were not more or less kleptomaniacs than a lot of Western kings and presidents .
 
lljadw said:
This has NOTHING to do with the military situation in Ukraine .
Besides : one can say the same about Ukraine and a lot of Western states .
And was Britain not a nation of serfs ruled by kleptomaniacs in the time of Robin Hood ?
The Russian Czars were not more or less kleptomaniacs than a lot of Western kings and presidents .
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The difference is that the west moved on, Russia hasn't, using your argument Russia is comparable with 16th Century Western Europe.

Western kings and queens are nothing more than figurehead and tourist attractions, Western presidents are despite their beliefs are still subject to the law.

The simple reality is that Russia is little more than a Serfdom with a 21st century fence at the border.

As for Ukraine, can't really say as I haven't been there yet, I know when I was in the UK they made up a large portion of armed gangs and in general were believed to be big in organized crime but I do believe Ukraine itself is trying to Westernise, whether it will succeed or not I do not know but in terms of the current war it is irrelevant as they were invaded.

To quote Winston Churchill “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.”
 
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MontyB said:
The difference is that the west moved on, Russia hasn't, using your argument Russia is comparable with 16th Century Western Europe.

Western kings and queens are nothing more than figurehead and tourist attractions, Western presidents are despite their beliefs are still subject to the law.

The simple reality is that Russia is little more than a Serfdom with a 21st century fence at the border.

As for Ukraine, can't really say as I haven't been there yet, I know when I was in the UK they made up a large portion of armed gangs and in general were believed to be big in organized crime but I do believe Ukraine itself is trying to Westernise, whether it will succeed or not I do not know but in terms of the current war it is irrelevant as they were invaded.

To quote Winston Churchill “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.”
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The Russians have the right to chose the political system they want, but we have not the right ( as was doing Kipling ) to impose our political system on Russia .
If they want to be serfs, that's their business .The more we will attack and despise the Russian political system , the more the Russians will defend it .
And, an other political system does not make better or worse soldiers .
 
lljadw said:
The Russians have the right to chose the political system they want, but we have not the right ( as was doing Kipling ) to impose our political system on Russia .
If they want to be serfs, that's their business .The more we will attack and despise the Russian political system , the more the Russians will defend it .
And, an other political system does not make better or worse soldiers .
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Of course they have the right to be as backward as they want to be in Russia, I don't care if they want to drag themselves back to stone age that is their right.

The problem is that they don't have the right to inflict themselves and their backward arsed views on others as they are trying to do in Ukraine.
 
The Russians don't have a choice in basically what is a dictatorship, if anyone argues or does not agree, suddenly disappears or falls out of a window.
 
MontyB said:
Of course they have the right to be as backward as they want to be in Russia, I don't care if they want to drag themselves back to stone age that is their right.

The problem is that they don't have the right to inflict themselves and their backward arsed views on others as they are trying to do in Ukraine.
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They will answer that they are only following the example of the West that in Iraq, Vietnam.Afghanistan,...was inflicting itself and its views on others .
They will also answer that the West does not have the right to deny them the right to invade other countries, because
A rights do not exist in international politics
B Ukraine is not a member of the EU ,thus the EU has no business in what is happening in Ukraine and it is also not a member of NATO,thus what happens in Ukraine is not the business of NATO.
C If the US claimed the right to attack,for dubious reasons, Iraq and Afghanistan and to transform these countries in liberal democracies,why should the Russians not have
the same right ?
 
George said:
They do have experience at designing/building various types of aircraft, vs Iran that has only built mock ups of what look like airplanes.
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Don't get me wrong Russia has made some great contributions to the world in science, engineering and arts from Mendeleev to Tchaikovsky but as any gardener will tell you, enough compost and something useful will grow.
 
The Ukrainian counter offensive goes slower than expected. They should have attacked during the night instead when the Ukrainian night fighting capability is better than the Russian. The Ukrainians need air support and also maybe hitting the Russian supplies more.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
The Ukrainian counter offensive goes slower than expected. They should have attacked during the night instead when the Ukrainian night fighting capability is better than the Russian. The Ukrainians need air support and also maybe hitting the Russian supplies more.
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What in the flying f**K is going on in Russia, it is starting to sound like a soap opera...


https://www.france24.com/en/europe/...ead-of-mutiny-he-says-his-forces-enter-russia

Zelensky and the team must be laughing their arses off in Kyiv about now.
 
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I3BrigPvSk said:
It is quite amazing how the Russian leadership (Putin) allow this to continue
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Be interesting to see what happens if it gets serious and Russia has to pull troops from the front.

To be honest I am not sure the Russian leadership has the capability of stopping this type of in fighting as it has been the mainstay of Russian politics for centuries.
 
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MontyB said:
Be interesting to see what happens if it gets serious and Russia has to pull troops from the front.

To be honest I am not sure the Russian leadership has the capability of stopping this type of in fighting as it has been the mainstay of Russian politics for centuries.
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Do you remember when Putin more or less embarrassed the head of the Russian foreign intelligence service SVR about Ukraine? Putin might enjoy to see this infighting, it is some sort a Russian tradition
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
Do you remember when Putin more or less embarrassed the head of the Russian foreign intelligence service SVR about Ukraine? Putin might enjoy to see this infighting, it is some sort a Russian tradition
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I don't know that Putin will enjoy this one as no matter who wins Russia comes out weaker, I have suspected something wasn't right for ages especially when the Russian Legion began playing around in Belgorod.
It seemed like it was staged for Prigozhen.
 
MontyB said:
I don't know that Putin will enjoy this one as no matter who wins Russia comes out weaker, I have suspected something wasn't right for ages especially when the Russian Legion began playing around in Belgorod.
It seemed like it was staged for Prigozhen.
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Things are happening in Russia, it is not surprising. I wonder how strong the support for the Wagner Group is within the Russian security apparatus. There is an uncertainty about the HQ in Rostov, but it seems the Wagner Group has captured it
 
If the whole Wagner Group gets "exiled" to Belarus, then goes "rogue" and invades The Ukraine, this whole thing is a show...Of course if he jumps out a window, maybe not.
 
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