Thoughts on the Russo-Ukranian War?

[lljadw]

But the Poles did resist the Russian invasion.

SOME Poles resisted the Russian invasion . Losses were very low on both sides .

Some facts about the Soviet invasion
1 On September 17 1939 the Soviets invaded a part of Poland which was mainly inhabited by non Poles and which the Soviets claimed since 1920 .
2 The reason for this occupation was to avoid a German occupation which was considered as a mortal danger by the Kremlin (east Poland was the region of origin of Ukrainian nationalism and the OUN fought there against the Polish occupiers ).
3 During this invasion,there was a pogrom by Ukrainian nationalists and by communists against the ruling Polish intelligentsia . I have heard horrific stories .
4 Very quickly the Soviets organized a referendum ( of which the result was known in advance ) to ''legalize '' the annexation of the region .
5 The Soviets started also immediately with the epuration :the local Polish intelligentsia ( including civilians ) was arrested and put in prison .The reasons were that they were the cornerstones of the capitalist society and that they were hostile to the new regime.
It is wrong to think that the Katyn victims all were professional soldiers .
6 When Stalin ordered in April 1940 to kill a small minority ( 22000 of 350000) of the Polish political prisoners ( not POWs ) Poland and the USSR were not at war .Thus one can not talk about a war crime .
7 Such things happened also in 1945 when the Poles and the Soviets eliminated the German intelligentsia in East Prussia and Silesia when they conquered these regions .
.
8 For the Russians Katyn was legal as the victims were now Soviet citizens and east Poland was now a part of the USSR .
For the Poles,it was a crime .
The opinion of other countries is irrelevant .

 

[MontyB]

SOME Poles resisted the Russian invasion . Losses were very low on both sides .

Some facts about the Soviet invasion
1 On September 17 1939 the Soviets invaded a part of Poland which was mainly inhabited by non Poles and which the Soviets claimed since 1920 .
2 The reason for this occupation was to avoid a German occupation which was considered as a mortal danger by the Kremlin (east Poland was the region of origin of Ukrainian nationalism and the OUN fought there against the Polish occupiers ).
3 During this invasion,there was a pogrom by Ukrainian nationalists and by communists against the ruling Polish intelligentsia . I have heard horrific stories .
4 Very quickly the Soviets organized a referendum ( of which the result was known in advance ) to ''legalize '' the annexation of the region .
5 The Soviets started also immediately with the epuration :the local Polish intelligentsia ( including civilians ) was arrested and put in prison .The reasons were that they were the cornerstones of the capitalist society and that they were hostile to the new regime.
It is wrong to think that the Katyn victims all were professional soldiers .
6 When Stalin ordered in April 1940 to kill a small minority ( 22000 of 350000) of the Polish political prisoners ( not POWs ) Poland and the USSR were not at war .Thus one can not talk about a war crime .
7 Such things happened also in 1945 when the Poles and the Soviets eliminated the German intelligentsia in East Prussia and Silesia when they conquered these regions .
.
8 For the Russians Katyn was legal as the victims were now Soviet citizens and east Poland was now a part of the USSR .
For the Poles,it was a crime .
The opinion of other countries is irrelevant .

That is a pretty dangerous interpretation of semantics, I am not sure you would agree with me if I argued that there were no laws in Nazi Germany that forbade the killing of German citizens by the government therefore the Holocaust was legal?

Dictators and despots like to play word games to justify heinous acts, Putin thinks his referendums carry some weight as well.

 

[BritinBritain]

That is a pretty dangerous interpretation of semantics, I am not sure you would agree with me if I argued that there were no laws in Nazi Germany that forbade the killing of German citizens by the government therefore the Holocaust was legal?

Dictators and despots like to play word games to justify heinous acts, Putin thinks his referendums carry some weight as well.

It appears Putin fell downstairs wherever he's hiding and soiled himself, could he be on his last legs as some are saying he is suffering from cancer.

Maxims https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...sedgntp&cvid=737fc9e2ad104696b67851c1c238ffa6

A bow and arrow in the right hands is bloody dangerous. I can only repeat those who used the water-cooled Vickers MG told me, ''Albeit very heavy, it was a superb gun and extremely reliable.

 

[lljadw]

That is a pretty dangerous interpretation of semantics, I am not sure you would agree with me if I argued that there were no laws in Nazi Germany that forbade the killing of German citizens by the government therefore the Holocaust was legal?

Dictators and despots like to play word games to justify heinous acts, Putin thinks his referendums carry some weight as well.

The victims of the Holocaust were for more than 90 % non Germans . 33% of the prewar Jewish Austrian and Jewish Germans were murdered ( 210000 0f 700000)
The killing of non German Jews was not legal following the laws of the countries of these victims .
About the killing of German citizens ,there were laws who forbade some of these killings, other killings were not forbidden as the euthanasia victims ( some 100000 ).
Every day in Europe, US, NZ, Australia mental and physical ill people are killed in hospitals ,in most of these countries these killings are legal ,but these killings happened also in the past when they were forbidden,and were not punished .
In most cases it is not the law which is deciding if something is legal or not ,but the government or the public opinion . The Germans knew of and accepted the killings of the Jews,they knew of but did not accept the killings of the euthanasia patients .
If Germany had won,Eichmann and Dr Brandt (euthanasie murderer) would not be executed .
The Katyn victims were political prisoners ,not POWs and they were shot on the order of Stalin and the orders of Stalin were the law in the USSR .
Some more information about the Katyn victims :
8000 were officers taken POW between 17 September and 5 October
6000 were police officers arrested because of their functions
8000 belonged to the Polish intelligentsia ( doctors,lawyers, land owners..)

During the same period Ukrainian nationalists killed an other 2500 people who belonged to these three groups and the Polish army killed as answer a lot of Ukrainians .
The Soviet invasion could have been avoided if in 1920 Poland had accepted the Curzon Line and had not tried to resurrect the medieval Polish state .
I will finish with the following :
it is senseless to resurrect 82 years after the facts the Katyn massacre because the victims are dead and will not come back and no one ,except the Marxists in Western Europe,will say that Stalin was right .
Besides :during these 82 years almost every year there were massacres which were worse than Katyn ( in the number of victims ) and no one talks about them : the Killing Fields in Cambodja is only ONE example .
AFTER Katyn ,the massacres in Eastern Europe continued :Ukrainians killed tens of thousands of Poles,Russians and Jews, Poles a lot ( but less ) of Ukrainians, Jews and Russians and Russians a lot of Poles,Ukrainians and Jews .
And let's not talk about Srebrenica ,......
One can not equate the present Russian crimes in Ukraine with the crimes of Stalin.Putin is not Stalin .
The Katyn killings belonged to the same group as the killings in the Gulag (1,6 million in 30 years,of whom 800000 common criminals and the execution of this group was accepted by the Soviet population ).

 

[MontyB]

The victims of the Holocaust were for more than 90 % non Germans . 33% of the prewar Jewish Austrian and Jewish Germans were murdered ( 210000 0f 700000)
The killing of non German Jews was not legal following the laws of the countries of these victims .
About the killing of German citizens ,there were laws who forbade some of these killings, other killings were not forbidden as the euthanasia victims ( some 100000 ).
Every day in Europe, US, NZ, Australia mental and physical ill people are killed in hospitals ,in most of these countries these killings are legal ,but these killings happened also in the past when they were forbidden,and were not punished .
In most cases it is not the law which is deciding if something is legal or not ,but the government or the public opinion . The Germans knew of and accepted the killings of the Jews,they knew of but did not accept the killings of the euthanasia patients .
If Germany had won,Eichmann and Dr Brandt (euthanasie murderer) would not be executed .
The Katyn victims were political prisoners ,not POWs and they were shot on the order of Stalin and the orders of Stalin were the law in the USSR .
Some more information about the Katyn victims :
8000 were officers taken POW between 17 September and 5 October
6000 were police officers arrested because of their functions
8000 belonged to the Polish intelligentsia ( doctors,lawyers, land owners..)

During the same period Ukrainian nationalists killed an other 2500 people who belonged to these three groups and the Polish army killed as answer a lot of Ukrainians .
The Soviet invasion could have been avoided if in 1920 Poland had accepted the Curzon Line and had not tried to resurrect the medieval Polish state .
I will finish with the following :
it is senseless to resurrect 82 years after the facts the Katyn massacre because the victims are dead and will not come back and no one ,except the Marxists in Western Europe,will say that Stalin was right .
Besides :during these 82 years almost every year there were massacres which were worse than Katyn ( in the number of victims ) and no one talks about them : the Killing Fields in Cambodja is only ONE example .
AFTER Katyn ,the massacres in Eastern Europe continued :Ukrainians killed tens of thousands of Poles,Russians and Jews, Poles a lot ( but less ) of Ukrainians, Jews and Russians and Russians a lot of Poles,Ukrainians and Jews .
And let's not talk about Srebrenica ,......
One can not equate the present Russian crimes in Ukraine with the crimes of Stalin.Putin is not Stalin .
The Katyn killings belonged to the same group as the killings in the Gulag (1,6 million in 30 years,of whom 800000 common criminals and the execution of this group was accepted by the Soviet population ).

But an extension of the same argument says that once the recognised government of the conquered area ceased to administer that area then by default it and it's inhabitants became citizens of the conquering country and German/Japanese law became the default as such the murder of millions was really just another government policy.
I am sure you can see the absurdity of this argument?

Also to the best of my knowledge New Zealand doesn't kill it's mentally ill in hospitals daily, back in the 1920s much like the rest of the world we had a eugenics program that resulted in people spending their life in institutions but no one was killed by the state (a very sick time in the world but it was 100 years ago), we do have a right to die option (which I voted for) but it only applies to terminally ill patients and even they have to jump through hoops to be approved.

 

[MontyB]

It appears Putin fell downstairs wherever he's hiding and soiled himself, could he be on his last legs as some are saying he is suffering from cancer.

It is hard to say how much if any of this is true as the whole story apparently came from telegram and hasn't been corroborated by anyone else, it would however be great if it was true.

A bow and arrow in the right hands is bloody dangerous. I can only repeat those who used the water-cooled Vickers MG told me, ''Albeit very heavy, it was a superb gun and extremely reliable.

There is also a replica Panther tank doing the rounds in Ukraine.

Panther in Ukraine

 

[lljadw]

But an extension of the same argument says that once the recognised government of the conquered area ceased to administer that area then by default it and it's inhabitants became citizens of the conquering country and German/Japanese law became the default as such the murder of millions was really just another government policy.
I am sure you can see the absurdity of this argument?

1 If the government of a conquered area ceases to administer that area,and the occupier is doing it, this does not mean that the inhabitants of this area become citizens of the conquered country .It can happen, but in a lot of cases the inhabitants of the occupied area do not become citizens of the conquering country .
Belgium was two times occupied by the Germans, but the Belgians did not become Germans .
The Chinese did not become Japanese.
After 1945 the Germans did not become British,French, American, Russian .
2 As a lot of people in the West,you are confounding law and moral, legality and morality .The Jews in the occupied countries were persecuted and sent to Poland where they were killed . This was ,following the German law, legal but no one ( except Neo -Nazis ) will argue that it was morally just and correct .Although,...although ...there were periods in the past where the Holocaust would not only be defended ,but enthusiastically be approved . And I fear that these periods will come back in the near future .
Every year in Europe tens of thousands of people are killed without their consent .Before WW1 Churchill advocated to put mentally ill in camps and to sterilize them .
Bernard Shaw said that one should kill them with gas. Hitler did what the others wanted to do but were unable to execute completely their plans .
Till after the end of the Civil War,slavery was legal in the US ,but that does not mean that it was considered as morally right .
What should we do against massacres,persecution,torture, etc in other countries ?
My opinion is that we should do nothing as long as these things are not threatening us .
Slavery still exists in Muslim countries, As this is not our business ,we should no nothing .The days of Livingstone and Stanley are gone .
No one ,including FDR, did something when the Kristalnacht happened ,the majority of the world remained indifferent when NK attacked the South, when 9/11 happened,the majority of the world remains indifferent about the war in Ukraine because it is not endangering them .
There is no universal morality whatever the liberals are claiming and we have not the right to impose by force our morals on the rest of the world .
To do it is imperialism,racism and colonialism .

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Quite interesting and so far pretty correct about what the winter environment does

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3PpsM3NOI

 

[lljadw]

But an extension of the same argument says that once the recognised government of the conquered area ceased to administer that area then by default it and it's inhabitants became citizens of the conquering country and German/Japanese law became the default as such the murder of millions was really just another government policy.
I am sure you can see the absurdity of this argument?

Also to the best of my knowledge New Zealand doesn't kill it's mentally ill in hospitals daily, back in the 1920s much like the rest of the world we had a eugenics program that resulted in people spending their life in institutions but no one was killed by the state (a very sick time in the world but it was 100 years ago), we do have a right to die option (which I voted for) but it only applies to terminally ill patients and even they have to jump through hoops to be approved.

I have found the following figures about euthanasia killings in NZL (and as they are official figures, they must be multiplied by at least 3 )
During 11 months ( November 2021-September 2022 )the official ( ha ! ) number of ''assisted deaths ''( haha!!) in NZL was 214.
In the Netherlands it was in 2019 4 % of all deaths : 6,361 but estimations go to 14 % : =some 20000 .

 

[BritinBritain]

It is hard to say how much if any of this is true as the whole story apparently came from telegram and hasn't been corroborated by anyone else, it would however be great if it was true.
]

I've often wondered how information such as this gets out of the Kremlin and into western press. I would have thought anything such as this would have been protected by (to quote Churchill) ''A bodyguard of lies.''

Quite interesting and so far pretty correct about what the winter environment does

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI3PpsM3NOI

I really feel sorry for those poor buggers on operations in subzero temperatures, it was bad enough in UK winters.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

I've often wondered how information such as this gets out of the Kremlin and into western press. I would have thought anything such as this would have been protected by (to quote Churchill) ''A bodyguard of lies.''



I really feel sorry for those poor buggers on operations in subzero temperatures, it was bad enough in UK winters.

It works as long as you wear the clothes for it. It's worse when it is between -5C-+5C. Being wet is way worse than being out in -20C or lower.

I read something interesting today, I can't confirm it, but it seems the Ukrainian forces have crossed the river Dnepr somewhere around Kherson.

 

[BritinBritain]

It works as long as you wear the clothes for it. It's worse when it is between -5C-+5C. Being wet is way worse than being out in -20C or lower. .

The trouble was, in the RAF we didn't get proper cold weather kit, most money for the RAF was spent on aeroplanes not kit for scruffy little erks.

I read something interesting today, I can't confirm it, but it seems the Ukrainian forces have crossed the river Dnepr somewhere around Kherson.

I reckon the Russians were extremely surprised at Ukranian resistance. Utmost respect

 

[lljadw]

In June !! Newsweek already claimed that Putin was severely ill and cited for this unnamed CIA agents .He had cancer, Parkinson ,etc
Nothing of this has been proved and it is not very important,unless one thinks ( as the media,they think exceptionally ) that with the death of Putin the war in Ukraine will be over and that there will be a new regime in Russia led by another US puppet as Yeltsin .
Both are very unlikely .
And, even if the war in Ukraine is over, this will be only temporarily ,as Russia will not disappear,neither will its hostility to an independent Ukrainian state .

 

[MontyB]

I have found the following figures about euthanasia killings in NZL (and as they are official figures, they must be multiplied by at least 3 )
During 11 months ( November 2021-September 2022 )the official ( ha ! ) number of ''assisted deaths ''( haha!!) in NZL was 214.
In the Netherlands it was in 2019 4 % of all deaths : 6,361 but estimations go to 14 % : =some 20000 .

I wouldn't doubt those figures and I don't think multiplying it by three is necessary as assisted suicide is legal here, I would also point out there is a vast difference between assisted suicide and an active eugenics program which we don't have.

It works as long as you wear the clothes for it. It's worse when it is between -5C-+5C. Being wet is way worse than being out in -20C or lower.

I read something interesting today, I can't confirm it, but it seems the Ukrainian forces have crossed the river Dnepr somewhere around Kherson.

There have long been rumors that Ukrainian SF have set up camp on Kinborn spit, this apparently happened the day Russia abandoned Kherson.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

The trouble was, in the RAF we didn't get proper cold weather kit, most money for the RAF was spent on aeroplanes not kit for scruffy little erks.



I reckon the Russians were extremely surprised at Ukranian resistance. Utmost respect

It was harder before the snow arrived. The cold fall rain and the humidity made much harder than when the white stuff appeared. The winter and cold temps drain energy from our bodies so it is important to eat and drink more when the body doesn't need to fight off the cold temps. But not getting winter clothes, especially boots, gloves and headwear will change any soldiers ability to fight

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

I wouldn't doubt those figures and I don't think multiplying it by three is necessary as assisted suicide is legal here, I would also point out there is a vast difference between assisted suicide and an active eugenics program which we don't have.



There have long been rumors that Ukrainian SF have set up camp on Kinborn spit, this apparently happened the day Russia abandoned Kherson.

Yes, but it seems they have crossed the river close to Kherson. If that is true, it will be interesting to see if the Ukrainians can continue an attack across the river and if their supply lines can support the Ukrainians over the river and beyond it

 

[lljadw]

I wouldn't doubt those figures and I don't think multiplying it by three is necessary as assisted suicide is legal here, I would also point out there is a vast difference between assisted suicide and an active eugenics program which we don't have.


.

1 No one should believe governmental figures, for obvious reasons ,
2 History has learnt us that eugenics and euthanasia are tied :the eugenics in Imperial Germany and Weimar resulted in the Nazi euthanasia measures .
3 Even without eugenics,euthanasia is the box of Pandora :it starts with someone assisting someone to commit suicide and it always results in the government ordering a civil servant to kill some one .The safeguards and control are an illusion : I know personally the case of someone who ''received '' passive euthanasia without his consent and without informing his family , because it would cost society too much to keep him alive .And that happened more than 20 years ago .
If you give the government the power to decide when and why you should die,the future is very dark.
Assisted suicide will result in enforced euthanasia .

 

[George]

Financing the war. https://www.fleetmon.com/maritime-n...n-oligarch-owned-superyacht-worth-200-mn-be-/

 

[lljadw]

Financing the war. https://www.fleetmon.com/maritime-n...n-oligarch-owned-superyacht-worth-200-mn-be-/

No one can say what is the worth of the yacht,besides it is irrelevant :the only thing that is important is not the estimate by some unknown self declared experts of $ 200 million, but the amount of money some one will be willing to give to buy the yacht .
It is a big illusion to think that countless billionaires will queue to buy the yacht and that they are willing to give $ 200 million .
200000 or 2 million are more likely than 200 million .

 

[MontyB]

No one can say what is the worth of the yacht,besides it is irrelevant :the only thing that is important is not the estimate by some unknown self declared experts of $ 200 million, but the amount of money some one will be willing to give to buy the yacht .
It is a big illusion to think that countless billionaires will queue to buy the yacht and that they are willing to give $ 200 million .
200000 or 2 million are more likely than 200 million .

I tend to agree, the maintenance and berthing fees on those things are huge and they will only appeal to a small market.
Real estate may be a different story though as that has a fairly fixed market value.