Obliterating Islamic State (ISIS)
Besides,most of the world population is not enthusiastic about basic freedoms (which is an American invention) .And even in the US people would give up basic freedoms to have law and order and to have basic material needs satisfied .
For the majority of the world population basic freedoms are a luxury they can not afford .
For the majority of the world population basic freedoms are a luxury they can not afford .
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Now who is putting words in who's mouth?
I criticise the Shah because he was a western installed puppet that was so hated by his people that they booted him out I am less critical of the "Ayatollahs" because they are who the Iranians chose to replace the Shah with.
Basically I do not have a problem with them replacing our dictator with their dictator as it is their country they can do what ever the hell they like in it and when they are sick of them they can rise up and toss them out as well, it is their choice.
As for the rest you don't have much of a leg to stand on, deposing democratically elected popular governments because they were too "left" for America to tolerate is not something you should be proud of and is a shining beacon of the hypocrisy that is American foreign policy.
As for New Zealands involvement fortunately we have been smart enough until recently to stay in the background spying on our neighbours for you.
I lack balance?
You are the one who rants on about his "great" nation while it bombs and subverts its way around the world and then cries victim and looks confused when someone returns the favour. If I have told you once I have certainly told these forums a thousand times "cause and effect, nothing every occurs in a vacuum" or if you are a Newtonian I give you his third law "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".
Wake up.
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brinktk
Active member
In other words, because you say so...
I'd love for you to come and try to take some of my "basic" freedoms...I'd love for you to try to impose your vision of how I should live...it would be the very last thing you ever did.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Oddly enough I 'sort' of agree with him, in recent years there has been a move towards security as a priority over everything else you only have to look at the lukewarm reaction to Snowden's revelations as an example.
I think had he been around in the late 1990s you would have seen a far different reaction to the information he released.
So I tend to think that "basic freedoms" have been steadily eroded since 2001 throughout the western world.
Says the man who is convinced that the whole world wants to follow the exemple of the US and who tries to impose by force his ideals on those who refuse to adopt the exemple of the US .
Says the man who hides the fact that the majority of the American voters are not interested in politics and remain at home every 4 years at the first tuesday after the first monday of november .
Your basic freedoms are a luxury most people can't afford and most people are not interested in or are hostile to .
Now he will pontificate indignantly about all those millions who emigrated to the US,forgetting (better :refusing to admit) that most of them did not came to the US to have basic freedoms,but to have a better material live .
And,interested readers will observe that he has not yet produced his list of basic freedoms (probably because he is not able to do it) .
Freedom is not free. Recall that Belgium was freed by the allies at a cost in blood from Nazi tyranny.
That's a red herring : before the war most Europeans lived in a dictatorial regime and most Belgians were partisan of a more authoritarian regime .
A lot of Americans (and especially the Liberals) are that convinced of the superiority of their own political system that they can't grasp that other people (the majority of the world population) prefer their own political system .
Why should it be the business of the US if the Syrians, the Libyans, the North Koreans preferred their own dictator ? As long as these dictators are no threat for the US,the only sensible policy is to leave them alone and to do business with them .
But a lot of people in the US are still imbued by the words of Lincoln who said (wrongly of course) that the US could not survive half free ans half slave and they are convinced (wrongly) that the world can not survive half slave and half free :the world trend has always been that the world was swarming with dictators and that democracies were exceptions .
A lot of Americans (and especially the Liberals) are that convinced of the superiority of their own political system that they can't grasp that other people (the majority of the world population) prefer their own political system .
Why should it be the business of the US if the Syrians, the Libyans, the North Koreans preferred their own dictator ? As long as these dictators are no threat for the US,the only sensible policy is to leave them alone and to do business with them .
But a lot of people in the US are still imbued by the words of Lincoln who said (wrongly of course) that the US could not survive half free ans half slave and they are convinced (wrongly) that the world can not survive half slave and half free :the world trend has always been that the world was swarming with dictators and that democracies were exceptions .
41 thousand Belgium civilian were killed by the Germans in WW2 ~ ½ of them were non-Jewish. And you’re not grateful for the liberation and democracy that resulted? Your country has never suffered to this extreme in its history, ungrateful
Does that make it right? Do you really think the people of N Korea are happy with millions dying of starvation and 10’s of thousands being executed?
You even find a way to twist Presidents Lincolns words. How low will you go.
brinktk
Active member
You're real good at knocking down all them straw men aren't you?
You have seriously misdiagnosed what you think I believe and where I stand...of course, if you actually read what I have written on here you would have seen that I have NEVER been the one who believed the US should impose our will on anyone EVER unless it follows the principles of legal, moral, and ethical. Which is a criteria that hasn't been fulfilled for some time in our force projection.
I have never ONCE advocated for our involvement in the ME and have frequently insisted that nothing good would come from it. Seems you think we SHOULD be in the ME fighting endless wars for generations. But of course you think so, it isn't you or your families blood that will be shed, it is mine! You want us to do your fighting for you and then have the gall to complain how we do it. GFY! You want us to bear the responsibility for a WWIII you insist is or needs to happen but have zero interest in fighting for it. Again...GFY!
However, you've labeled me in your mind so no matter what I say you have already made up your mind as to what you think I say...
Feel free to interpret this...GFY!
brinktk
Active member
I agree with the fact basic freedoms HAVE been eroded and I am appalled at this. I do not believe we should curb them at all, in fact I am more inclined to send them in the other direction. I don't trust the government to wield that type of power responsibly and I also prefer to take care of security for myself. I don't need their help in protecting what's mine.
Of course, I also believe it is everyone's responsibility to be able to provide for themselves "materially" and not the governments. I know that I can provide for me and my family regardless of the circumstances and I have taken proactive measures to ensure this occurs even if I someday cannot provide the skills and tools necessary to ensure those "material" goods are taken care of.
My wife and I could stop getting paid today and we would be just fine because we haven't allowed ourselves to be victims of circumstance or at the mercy of another entity. Again, I don't need help from any government to provide for me other than for them to simply leave me alone and make sure my kids don't have to go off to some foreign land and get their ass shot off because of their ineptitude.
Your principles of legal,moral and ethical do not apply in the ME (and I doubt that they apply outside the US),because there are NO such universal principles:as Kipling said : East is East and West is West and both shall never meet each other .
But you belong to these people who believe in things as :"We hold these truths to be self-evident,that all men are created equal,that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights ,that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness ."
Although history has learned us that these words have caused a lot of misery in the world, you will stick to them, because you have been taught that these words are the foundations of the American mission in the world .
People who believe that their country has a mission are dangerous .
I never has advocated a big US intervention in the ME,the less we are interfering there ,the better .But the reality is that the policy of Obama, Cameron,Merkel and Hollande has created a catastrophe . For Europe. For the US .What happened in Paris and San Bernardino is only the beginning .ISIS must be destroyed.At all costs. As soon as possible . And if boots on the ground are impossible, we must use machines in the air who drop bombs,and,if this is not possible, a small nuclear weapon . If the West has not the balls to do this, in 2050 ISIS will rule Europe and in 2076,US will no longer exist .
This year 1 MILLION immigrants (= potential terrorists) have come in Germany . Unless there is a miracle, Germany is lost .
Why are you appalled ?
If it is needed to curb them to survive (and it is needed) you should not be appalled .
They have chosen their dictator and are indifferent to what happens to their neighbours .
Thus, I also do not care about what happens to them .I don't care if they are happy or not : as the Germans they are responsible for their situation and must suffer the consequences .
Besides,the elimination of the dictator of NK would be very bad for the world .
And about Lincoln : He was wrong . US was born as half slave and half free,and in 1860 there was no reason at all why it could not last half slave and half free .
They have chosen their dictator, say what? Guess again their dictator has been appointed for them. They had no say what so ever in the process. It has been under the Stalinist thumb of the Kim dynasty since WW2. Even the slightest show of defiance to the regime is punished with death or the gulag-torture. It would be wonderful to eliminate this wildcard -murderous regime.
What is wrong with you to mock one of histories greatest figures president Lincoln. You claim to enslave the people of color was correct? Perhaps you should be sent to N Korea and be made a gulag slave.
Your reading capacities are worsening every day : where did I say that slavery was correct ? I said that Lincoln was wrong when he said that the US could not last half slave,half free : the US were born half slave,half free .
Why would it be wonderful to eliminate the dictatorial regime of North Korea ? Of course you don't know the very bad results of the reunification of Germany for West Germany ,and a reunification of the both Koreas would even be worse for South Korea .It would cost thousands of billions .
And about the regime in NK,here also you are wrong :because you have the parochial,unwordly attitude of a lot of Americans that a dictatorial regime is always oppressing its whole population : this is wrong : the North Koreans are on the average reasonable satisfied with the regime (as were the Germans and the Soviets),because the regime has brought them law and order and material advance :they are better of than in 1950,1960,1970,etc : if their situation was worse,the regime would fall .
Why do you think that the Soviets supported the regime to the end ? Not because they were communists,but because in 1989 they were better of than in the past.
As a lot of Americans,you refuse to admit the truth,which is that a lot (maybe most) people prefer a dictator to democracy .It was so in the past, it is so today and it will always be so .
As Bertold Brecht said: erst kommt das Fressen und dan die Moral : first bread and than ethics .
mmarsh
Active member
Hezbollah and ISIS are both terrorists, but not the same type of terrorist.
I'd go with the Iranian option myself. First of all Iran is Shiite not Sunni (and
the most violent groups are Sunni), secondly while Iran does support groups like Hezbollah its (and Hezbollahs) ultimate goals are political not religious.
This is important because it denotes a certain amount of reason, politics can always be negotiated, unlike the real Jihadist movements which will not negotiate with anybody on anything.
Hezbollah is anti-Israeli occupation, but it has no wider ambitions than that. They are also a lot more tolerant, (I'm not saying they are boy scouts) they are not the ones to cut your head off because you aren't one of them.
I believe you are right they are both terrorist organizations. ISIS is the most despicable of any ME organization at this time. However I believe they eventually will run their course or be defeated. At least as far as their effort towards building a permanent Caliphate.
Hezbollah leaves a bad taste in my mouth from their killing the (250 or 300) odd Marines in Lebanon some years back.
I am not so certain that the Ayatollahs in Iran are all that rational? Even though things have normalized a bit in Iran from a few years back. The country is effectively a theocracy.