Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.

[senojekips]

I'm trying to find the legal status of a "Blockade", and it could take some time as I will have to dig my books out of a box in the shed once it gets light. From what I remember a blockade has to be Internationally sanctioned, to acquire the status of a "blockade", as defined under International Maritime Law. In the mean time here's the latest I can find,...

Posted by Craig Murray,
Human rights activist, writer, former British Ambassador, and an Honorary Research
Fellow at the University of Lancaster School of Law.

A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare. Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.
There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

As far as I am aware, maritime economic zones only apply to fishing or "harvesting" vessels which includes dredges and oil rigs etcetera, basically any vessel that derives profit out of the sea or underlying land within that zone. As near as I can find, http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a916914453&db=all at this time it appears that Israel has only got jurisdiction over a 12 mile maritime Zone with the possibility of further expansion, which to be legally enforceable must be ratified by the international authorities and adjoining states where that occurs.

Added at 13320hrs

Hah,... Sorry MontyB, after searching around and not finding the offending box, I asked "The Little Woman" if she knew anything of it. It appears that our son wanted my nice dust proof, vermin proof steel trunks to take his clothing to their new home, as it was going to be in storage for a few months.

Wait for it,..... the contents were thrown out, as I would supposedly never need them again. Their purchase price would have been $1500-2000, I'm only thankful that the company paid for nearly all of them.

We hoarders lead a bastard of a life, everyone else either wants to steal our stuff, or failing that, throw it out. All I have left is a copy of Butterworth's Law and Legal definitions, as it was in my CD rack above the computer at the time. :crybaby:

Anyway here's what it says about blockades:

Originally Posted by Butterworth's Legal Definitions
Blockade
The besieging of an enemy and prevention of access by land, sea, or air to or from the enemy’s territory. A blockade is breached if there is actual or attempted passage through the area or from the area under blockade, unless the vessel in question is in need of repair or assistance. To be valid a blockade must be effective: (INT) Declaration of Paris Respecting Maritime Law of 1856 art 4. Blockades can be enforced by both belligerents and United Nations security council resolution however they will differ in nature depending on who is enforcing them. The traditional penalty for a blockade is the confiscation of the ship or aircraft as well as its cargo. A peaceful blockade by sea or land is an act of aggression in contradiction of the principles of international law, unless approved by the United Nations.

Conflict of laws: A blockade employed in times of peace against the ports of a State, to coerce that State into settling a dispute to the satisfaction of the blockading State. The United Nations Security Council has assumed the competence to initiate a blockade (of any kind) to ‘maintain or restore international peace and security’: (INT) Charter of the United Nations 1945 art 42.

The way I read it, this would indicate that Turkey and Israel not being in a state of declared war and the alleged blockade not having been sanctioned by the UN, that at this stage there is no legal blockade.

 

[MontyB]

I found this quote kind of interesting...

The secretive Flotilla 13 marine commando unit was brought out of the shadows to try to explain the operation's failings.
"We did not expect such resistance from the group's activists as we were talking about a humanitarian aid group," one unnamed naval lieutenant told Israel's Army Radio.

If they are know they are only dealing with a humanitarian aid group why was the raid necessary at all?

Surely the best method of action here would have been for them to be stopped short of the destination, rerouted to an Israeli port for inspection and then if all clear allowed to continue under escort to its destination that way everyone gets what they want.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_israel_flotilla_tactics

 

[senojekips]

There is nothing to say that that is not what they had in mind,.... except of course, their past history. A history of never doing what any normal nation would consider logical, and also their tragic record of leaving a trail of dead and dying victims wherever they are involved in dealing with others, particularly women and children.

Surely one of the most accident prone countries in the world. Not to mention of course the fact that they then dive for cover and blame the dead.

I'm waiting to see the arms cache, or maybe a nuclear device that they find on board,... they will surely do something to try and divert the blame from themselves. :wink:

 

[MontyB]

I liked Jon Stewart's (Is there something wrong when comedians do better news shows that news outlets) take on it...

http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=5865854&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[senojekips]

I guess he's woken up to the fact that if you can't get a laugh out of it you will end up slashing your own wrists out of pure frustration.

Personally I would like to knock both sides collective heads together, but seeing I can't do that, I guess I'll just have to hope against hope that the Palestinians get their homeland back before the Israelis can starve them all to death, and then just walk in and take what's left.

 

[Panzercracker]

On the subject of respecting jewish culture and history whats to respect? The major difference between Jews and Germans is that Germans had an episode of racism while Jews cultivate it for over 2000 years.

They started their state by wiping out the indigenous population thousands of years ago and today in XXI century their methods still aint changing, i'm not suprised with the convoy affair at all.

 

[Big_Z]

The Jews have got a little too big for their briches. I used to respect the freedom they had in conduction of operations. Putting blocks of buildings to the ground. If they think for a second that there aren't people in this world who will put them in there place they are mistaken. Slow down........... We will throw you to the dogs. Stand down Jews, you do not run this orginization. If you can't figure out what we consider functional we will get rid of you.

 

[A Can of Man]

Big_Z, it's not Jews per se. It's the Zionists that are the problem. There is a difference.

 

[senojekips]

The Jews have got a little too big for their briches. I used to respect the freedom they had in conduction of operations. Putting blocks of buildings to the ground. If they think for a second that there aren't people in this world who will put them in there place they are mistaken. Slow down........... We will throw you to the dogs. Stand down Jews, you do not run this orginization. If you can't figure out what we consider functional we will get rid of you.

The only thing that probably stops this from having been done many years ago has been the fact that Israel has been backed militarily and economically by the USA. It has made them too "**** sure" of themselves, like the spoilt brat kid who has a big brother to protect him.

Big_Z, it's not Jews per se. It's the Zionists that are the problem. There is a difference.

+1 You hit the nail on the head. Many Jews despise what is happening in Israel.

 

[MontyB]

Well this was interesting, as I mentioned earlier attitudes are changing.

US reporter Helen Thomas quits over Israel comments

"Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine" - Clip courtesy rabbilive.com
Veteran US White House reporter Helen Thomas has retired after making controversial remarks about Israel.

In an interview on 27 May, she said that Israelis should get "the hell out of Palestine" and suggested they went to Germany, Poland or the US.

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said her comments were "offensive and reprehensible". She has since apologised.

Thomas, 89, was the longest-serving reporter in the White House.

She has spent most of her career working for United Press International wire service, but had been working as a columnist for Hearst newspapers since 2000.

"Helen Thomas announced Monday that she is retiring, effective immediately," Hearst news reported.

"Her decision came after her controversial comments about Israel and the Palestinians were captured on videotape and widely disseminated on the internet."

Thomas's remarks were made in a video interview with the website RabbiLive.com, when she was asked whether she had any "comments on Israel".

"Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine," she said.

"Remember these people are occupied and it's their land, not Germany and not Poland.

"They can go home, Poland, Germany, and America and everywhere else," she added.

Her comments sparked criticism from the Obama administration and led to her being dropped as graduation speaker for a local high school.


Barack Obama wishes Helen Thomas happy birthday last August
In an email to parents explaining the change, Alan Goodwin, principal of Walt Whitman High School in Maryland, said that "graduation celebrations are not the venue for divisiveness".

On her website, Thomas said she regretted her comments.

"They do not reflect my heartfelt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognise the need for mutual respect and tolerance. May that day come soon."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10259646.stm

 

[Del Boy]

I found this quote kind of interesting...



If they are know they are only dealing with a humanitarian aid group why was the raid necessary at all?

Surely the best method of action here would have been for them to be stopped short of the destination, rerouted to an Israeli port for inspection and then if all clear allowed to continue under escort to its destination that way everyone gets what they want.

Exactly. Which was precisely what the ships were asked to do, but refused.

Israel is happy to assist with the landing of aid supplies and the distribution of same after inspection.

All nice and friendly, done properly. Of course, the unfortunate attitude of the aid convoy was one of no interest in aid delivery, but of political provocation to attempt to destroy Israel's blockade defences.

So let us not be hypocritical on that issue, we all understand that, but we seem to find great difficulty in understanding that Israel has no wish to co-operate in its own annihilation.:shoothea:

 

[MontyB]

Do you actually believe what you are saying?

I have no doubt that this was an attempt to break the blockade primarily because thats what the group said they were going to do but even the Americans (Israels greatest apologist) have said that it is unsustainable and imposing undue hardship on the civilian population of Gaza.

However Israels over zealous (and I am being polite) actions have done little more than destroy whatever good will or at least acquiescence the world had towards Israel is all but gone, it has turned the only Muslim ally it had against it and not even Americans are applauding it hell even the ones that hand around here justifying themselves have disappeared.

If anything Israel has just co-operated in its own annihilation because now every tin pot dictatorship can emulate its actions, it is now much more acceptable to support Palestinian causes in the open and all because Israel believes it can get away with whatever it likes.

 

[Panzercracker]

Israel is happy to assist with the landing of aid supplies and the distribution of same after inspection.

-Removed-

Israel imposed poverty, starvation and shortages of everything imaginable on the people of Gaza, it steals their water, their food and their aid.

All nice and friendly, done properly. Of course, the unfortunate attitude of the aid convoy was one of no interest in aid delivery, but of political provocation to attempt to destroy Israel's blockade defences.

So let us not be hypocritical on that issue, we all understand that, but we seem to find great difficulty in understanding that Israel has no wish to co-operate in its own annihilation.:shoothea:

The only one who's hypocritical is you being an apologetic of inhumane barbaric blockade, the medicine for the children threatened Israel how?

 

[Del Boy]

Don't try to feed me your usual hate-filled political propaganda rubbish. Gaza is not starving. The Israelis pass in masses of aid daily.

Hamas has control of the destiny of Gaza currently, they stop firing- war stops - easy as that. Recognize the right of Israel to live - result peace.

The aid convoys are not manned by 'peace' activists - in fact they are nothing but political activists.

You don't have the call on who burns in hell Panzercracker, so get off the pot.

 

[senojekips]

Don't try to feed me your usual hate-filled political propaganda rubbish. Gaza is not starving. The Israelis pass in masses of aid daily.

I don't find your stupid statements to be other than I would expect from an apologist for the Israeli liars, especially seeing that every Aid agency in Gaza including The Red Cross, Medecins Sans Frontieres, Red Crescent and independent medical teams disagrees with you. I guess that in your delusional state, they are all lying and only you know the truth?

Reading Sara Roy’s report, 'Gaza: Treading on Shards’ (17th February), I noticed that what Israel has been doing in Gaza is chillingly similar to what the Nazis did in Warsaw and in its other ghettos.

Source: http://www.countercurrents.org/abarbanel240210.htm

You don't have the call on who burns in hell Panzercracker, so get off the pot.

No one burns in Hell, it is no more than crackpot religious scaremongering,... unlike those who suffer the burns of Israeli White Phosphorus in Gaza.

Hamas has control of the destiny of Gaza currently, they stop firing- war stops - easy as that. Recognize the right of Israel to live - result peace.

Israel has no "Right" to anything, it is a merely a Zionist dream, based on religious mumbo jumbo that has not progressed since the dark ages. If Hamas were to stop agitating, Israel would just have got there own way, for another round of expropriation of land and a new group of people to dehumanise, fortunately, in the real world that is not how it happens. The world sees more of the truth about these murdering pigs every time something like this happens. Every time, the protests are louder and more widespread.

 

[MontyB]

Hamas has control of the destiny of Gaza currently, they stop firing- war stops - easy as that. Recognize the right of Israel to live - result peace.

Umm they did that 4 years ago...

Hamas: We’ll recognize Israel within '67 borders
Faction's spokesman at Palestinian parliament voices pragmatic, surprising declarations during Ramallah conference; 'we, Hamas, are committed to calm up to this moment,' he says
Ali Waked
Published: 05.11.06, 00:19 / Israel News
The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html

 

[oRTouCH]

Here is a website which includes +18 photos, making an Anti-Israel propaganda. This link is sent to me after the Israeli commandos killed Turkish nationals in Mavi Marmara:

http://www.israilboykot.com/rezillikleri.php (The images in there are really brutal. So please do not click on this site if you are not to see inside.)

Note: I am not against Israel or their policy about Hamas. I do believe that some kind of terrorist groups are supported by Iran against Israel. But I really feel desperate about the civilians in Palestine as you see them in that pictures.

*If this share is against forum rules, please warn me or delete this post.

 

[LeEnfield]

Israel will let through what they consider non military aid. Building materials are banned in case they use it for a strong point, plumbing materials are also banned as they can be turned into pipe bombs, many electrical goods are banned as micro chips can be removed from them and used to detonate bombs. When the Palestine's built a port the Israelis destroyed it, when they built an international airport the same thing happened. Much of the damaged that Israel inflicted on Gaza the other year still has not been repaired as all materials to do so have been banned. So much of the stuff on these ships will never get where it is scheduled to go, which now leaves the question of what happens to the stuff they seize, do they send it back to where it came from or do they keep it.

 

[Del Boy]

As well as Israel, Egypt offered to accept the supplies from the aid convoys for inspection and acceptance. Offer refused. Both countries determine to prevent the smuggling into Gaza of advanced weaponry from Iran, the puppet-masters of Hamas and Hezbolah.

Please read and digest:-

The good life on the West Bank


Thursday, 3rd December 2009

In the Wall Street Journal, Tom Gross provides an eye-opening antidote to the usual boilerplate fantasies about Palestinian deprivation:

Wandering around downtown Nablus the shops and restaurants I saw were full. There were plenty of expensive cars on the streets. Indeed I counted considerably more BMWs and Mercedes than I've seen, for example, in downtown Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
... The shops and restaurants were also full when I visited Hebron recently, and I was surprised to see villas comparable in size to those on the Cote d'Azur or Bel Air had sprung up on the hills around the city. Life is even better in Ramallah, where it is difficult to get a table in a good restaurant. New apartment buildings, banks, brokerage firms, luxury car dealerships and health clubs are to be seen. In Qalqilya, another West Bank city that was previously a hotbed of terrorists and bomb-makers, the first ever strawberry crop is being harvested in time to cash in on the lucrative Christmas markets in Europe. Local Palestinian farmers have been trained by Israeli agriculture experts and Israel supplied them with irrigation equipment and pesticides.
A new Palestinian city, Ruwabi, is to be built soon north of Ramallah. Last month, the Jewish National Fund, an Israeli charity, helped plant 3,000 tree seedlings for a forested area the Palestinian planners say they would like to develop on the edge of the new city. Israeli experts are also helping the Palestinians plan public parks and other civic amenities.
...In June, the Washington Post’s Jackson Diehl related how Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had told him why he had turned down Ehud Olmert's offer last year to create a Palestinian state on 97% of the West Bank (with 3% of pre-1967 Israeli land being added to make up the shortfall). ‘In the West Bank we have a good reality,’ Abbas told Diehl. ‘The people are living a normal life,’ he added in a rare moment of candor to a Western journalist.
Nablus stock exchange head Ahmad Aweidah went further in explaining to me why there is no rush to declare statehood, saying ordinary Palestinians need the IDF to help protect them from Hamas, as their own security forces aren't ready to do so by themselves yet.
The truth is that an independent Palestine is now quietly being built, with Israeli assistance.
​

When might we read this in the British press or hear it on the BBC?


** PEACE - not BLOOD! Get it? The solution I support, not death and destruction, which Seno and his ilk beg for.

 

[senojekips]

---snip--- So much of the stuff on these ships will never get where it is scheduled to go, which now leaves the question of what happens to the stuff they seize, do they send it back to where it came from or do they keep it.

Make a guess,.....