Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.

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grey shadow said:
What happened to us?

How did we turn from a “villa in the jungle,” as Ehud Barak once characterized Israel, to just another animal in the jungle? How did it come to be that we informed the world that “we’ve gone mad,” and then were surprised to be treated as madmen? How did Israel shift from being the spiritual center of Ehad Ha’am and Ben Gurion’s light unto the nations to the “neighborhood bully?” How did it all happen without us noticing it?
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Simple, you were never a "normal" country you were never a spiritual centre, Israel from day one was built on the premise of stealing land from others, your people came to a region with an express intent of taking homes from Arabs, then of course the region starte hating you and the world became weary.

You think any country will admit a large number of Jews after you pulled off Israel? The world will never forget and while all seem normal now when Jews are in need and they will eventually they'll have nowhere to go.

I'm not going to adress the rest of the post because what you wrote is communist newspeak designed to dodge the important issues, Jews came and took homes killing and abusing their way to sovereignty, thats what happened.
 
So you think that my post is communist propaganda?

Hm .....! are we talking about Jüdischer Bolschewismus.
If so, It seems to me that I've heard the phrase before.
Killing and abusing their way to sovereignty is basically the way most countries have emerged.

But thanks for your input.
 
History just does not change, except when the story is not told to become part of history, or over year the teller of history on either side changes the story and is told so long it is excepted as truth.

All counties have performed mass murder of civilians, did not our great country of the united states carpet bomb, fire bomb and drop 2 atom bombs on the civilians of japan. Were the civilians any less then a POW.

The fact is all countries have and will continue unquestionable actions to POW and civilians, as long as history has been history man has NOT changed.

Man justifies the bruatity as justified or not based on which side of the line they are standing at that moment.

History demonstrates for each of the unquestionable actions one side will always justify it, and the other side use will use the unquestionable act to justify their next unquestionable act and just continue until someone backs down.

History states the winner of individual battles or war (there is no military action with loss of life which is not war physically or mentally) by the fact that they won makes all actions exceptable unquestionable acts, for the the group which did not win the battle or war submitted.

Submittling is not lossing, it is only time to fester the hate and make plans strike back by any means (military, emotionally, economic, terror, loss of mineral water food etc.)however long it takes. The ones who have submitted do not believe they lost a war, only delayed of victory.

As for the POW's killing we can only hope for the best but for loss of civilian life there has been some reduction by newer technology of more accurate killing of the other side.

Each side will go to extremes to justify their cause picking and choosing and taken their side from any part of history they can grab onto. Example calling Israel a bunch of Nazi's. Why not what the white man did to the american indian, or Russia did to it's civilians over the last 150 plus years.

So humans are humans and individual acts of men in the heat of battle do things, and leaders do stupid things and both sides just want to survive to fight again and will continue until they can no longer justify killing.

Until then no one wins.

Note animal, insect, fish, bird ect. wars are survical of their kind no thought of just or right. So why expect the human is different.
 
newcommer 1 said:
History just does not change, except when the story is not told to become part of history, or over year the teller of history on either side changes the story and is told so long it is excepted as truth. ---snip---
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All of that may be OK in a junior philosophy class at some institution of learning, but it is hardly of any consequence when we are trying to debate the guilt or otherwise, of a defined entity based on the evidence that is available.
 
senojekips & 84RFK; Unfortunately I can only agree with you.

I came to think of this old joke:

The atheist: I don't believe this shi*!
The Taoist: shi* happens!
The Buddhist: if shi* happens, it isn't really shi*!
The Catholic: if shi* happens, you deserve it!
The Muslim: if shi* happens, it is the will of Allah!
The Jew: why does this shi* always happen to us???

It is funny and at the same time sad.
There are unfortunately some Jews who see themselves as eternal victims.
 
:thumb: 42RM ​

Well, one can certainly reflect on that! ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]An Israeli landed at Heathrow Airport, at the control the officer asked: occupation? And the Israeli answers: no just for visit! :wink:


[/FONT][/FONT]
 
grey shadow said:
Killing and abusing their way to sovereignty is basically the way most countries have emerged. .
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Bullsh*t or is it a new Israeli Jews excuse for what they're doing? Germany, Poland, France, and dozens more, these people settled there and built, sure they had their wars but there's not one instance in Europe apart from partitions of Poland when a bunch of people come and claim someone else's country as theirs for a prolonged period.

No it is not historically common to steal people's land to build a country though it happens, for me you, your children and all your kin are basically thieves.

A good Israeli Jew is a very rare thing since Israel is a state built on a property of others, any Jew who chose to live in Israel or lives in Israel and does not openly condemn his country for its action is a modern nazi and a thief, if there ever was a nation of scum its Israel.

We got ourselves partitioned for 123 years here in Poland and Europe produced all kinds of f*cked up reasoning to justify and legitimize it, while i'd take a Jew over a Muslim most of the time i despise Israel for how it was built and what drives it today.
 
headwards said:
Jesus christ panzercracker europe owes all its wealth to taking over and oppressing other countries.
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Rubbish, some countries do some countries dont.

But hey lets say Europe did build its wealth by sucking the bone marrow from newborn babies does it make what Israel does any less repulsive?

I dont care whether someone else did it, in XX century directly after the mother of all wars Jews did exactly what Hitler wanted to do to them, except to others.

They built a state on the premise that their holy book which they wrote makes it theirs and murdered non-Jews out of the lands they wanted, now a bunch of sad pricks gather together and come up with all kinds of para-legal or philosophical crap to justifiy a simple fact.

Jews commited a crime by building a nation in Israel and they perpetuate said crime by existing a state there, period.

I keep remiding myself how Austria, Prussia and Russia took over Poland and the world produced an enormous amount of bullsh*t to justify it because it was easier than not to, the same happens here, Palestinians get p*ssed on because it the easiest solution.
 
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I was commenting that your argument that Europe was somehow more moral than Israel is completely flawed.
Also I do really believe the jews deserved to be cut a break after ww2 and I think that was the general attitude back then.
Theres a shitload of judgement going on about Israel in these threads which seem to completely ignore that harsh reality that they themselves are in. I dont think anybody enjoys shooting kids or whatever they are meant to have done but everyone has the right to fight for the survival of their race.
Historically I dont think anyone will look back and judge the jews too harshly, it could have been- and is in many other places around the world- so much worse
 
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Panzercracker said:
...Germany, Poland, France, and dozens more, these people settled there and built, sure they had their wars but there's not one instance in Europe apart from partitions of Poland when a bunch of people come and claim someone else's country as theirs for a prolonged period.

No it is not historically common to steal people's land to build a country though it happens

We got ourselves partitioned for 123 years here in Poland and Europe produced all kinds of f*cked up reasoning to justify and legitimize it, .
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Sorry, but you're wrong there, we just have to go back a little more than 123 years.
The level of brutality and violence may not have been the same, but the basic principle has been pretty common all over europe the last millenium.
That is if you don't count in the Roman empire.

It appears to me that nobody asked Grey Shadow wether or not HE actually wanted to be a superior race, and he's doing his best to denounce that title.
 
Panzercracker said:
Jews commited a crime by building a nation in Israel and they perpetuate said crime by existing a state there, period..
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Wrong again, we (UN/the western allies/the international community) comitted a crime by letting them do it, and by giving them no restraints when they started to expand.
Pretty much the same thing that happened to Poland back then...

Noch ist Polen nicht verloren.
 
84Rfk;
No, Oceania wasnt worth much to Europe, apart from as bases for sealing and whaling I suppose. Though Aussie did eventually turn out to have some valuables buried out in the desert and New Zealand is probably the most likely to survive a nuclear apocalypse =p
The Americas and Africa are the most to thank economically for Europes rise to power- at the expense of the locals.
 
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headwards said:
Also I do really believe the jews deserved to be cut a break after ww2 and I think that was the general attitude back then.
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I dont, i dont believe Jews should be cut any breaks, Poland lost 20% of its population and every major city, Russia lost far far more, Hungary deserves a mention too.

There were plenty of nations who lost more than Jews and got what? A token penny here, a quiet "sorry" there, sometimes not even that and suddenly the Jews got their suffering evaluated as being superior because they got gassed while Russians only got burned in barns?

F*ck it the Jews did not deserve a penny from anyone but Germany, the way i see it Germans ought to have their entire GDP divided between Jews, Poles and Russians for 40 years and thats that, paying for non-existent sins with someone else's land to people who suffered just like everyone did is bloody wrong.

To clarify while i consider myself a solid enemy of Israeli Jews and Israel i do not believe the state needs to go away, yes they came in and occupied the land but sh*t happened, what ticks me off right now is that they continue the same old policies against Iran, Palestine and everyone whom they deem a threat which is about everyone around them, the world in general and US in specific should jackboot Israel into submission.
 
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headwards said:
I was commenting that your argument that Europe was somehow more moral than Israel is completely flawed.
Also I do really believe the jews deserved to be cut a break after ww2 and I think that was the general attitude back then.
Theres a shitload of judgement going on about Israel in these threads which seem to completely ignore that harsh reality that they themselves are in. I dont think anybody enjoys shooting kids or whatever they are meant to have done but everyone has the right to fight for the survival of their race.
Historically I dont think anyone will look back and judge the jews too harshly, it could have been- and is in many other places around the world- so much worse
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My question would be why do they deserve a break?

We didn't give Gypsies or any of the other minorities that were persecuted countries of their own, I think what a lot of people over look in this argument is that 11-13 million people died in Hitlers camps.

Also don't forget that these people all had nationalities prior to WW2 so everyone had a homeland to go to so there really was no precedent for the formation of Israel.
 
It should be remembered that there were, and still are a lot of very wealthy Jews bank rolling American politicians and there fore have a large say on what the American policy IS going to be on this matter
 
Your argument is a good one MontyB, however the gypsies or alcoholics could hardly form a viable country. Also were any other races really sold out by thier own countrymen and subjected to as extreme eradication as the Jews?
No doubt having friends in high places helped but perhaps people were also recognising that the old stigmas were not going to go away and thought a quick and easy fix would be to give them their own space. I mean it makes sense to me.
 
headwards said:
Your argument is a good one MontyB, however the gypsies or alcoholics could hardly form a viable country. Also were any other races really subjected to as extreme eradication as the Jews?
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Russians, Poles, Serbs.

Lets take a look at Russia for example, just in Leningrad a milion Russians starved to death, people were eating corpses, Stalingrad, a milion russian casualities and a city turned to moonscape.

Poland? Warsaw - 600.000 dead and city with nearly 1000 years of tradition completely destroyed.

Those are just a few citie, there's a lot more, various slavic nations had it a lot worse than Jews, they were just targetted slightly later.
headwards said:
to give them their own space. I mean it makes sense to me.
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Except it was NOT their own space, it was space occupied by Palestinians and thats why it makes sense to you, if Jews came and took your home it would make no sense at all.

Also putting the blame on UN is wrong, Jews wanted to steal that land, they knew they'd have to murder their way to statehood so its their fault and their fault alone.
 
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