Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.

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Also, the illegal settlements should be stopped. The Israelis (the reason why I'm saying Israelis and not Jews is because although of same religion, they are different) have excused them for the same excuse for Jerusalem. And the Jerusalem excuse is all nonsense
 
Today's events put a definitive word on how Israeli's governament respects lifes of non jews.
Please do not misunderstand me: I have nothing against jews, I have jewish friends and full respect for their historical culture. But those I know personally are italians of jewish religion, not Israeli citizens. I only say that the State of Israel is racist, arrogant, practices institutional robbery on properties and shows no respect for human rights of non jewish people.
 
My thoughts precisely, Franzmaximillian.

I wonder exactly how far it will have to go, before the free world is finally shamed into doing something about it.
 
I just don't get it - as if Israel didn't have enough enemies all around the globe. Why are they still working on increasing this number all the time?
The day will come when even almighty Uncle Sam can't save you anymore. Have fun...
 
Anyone who has a brain they can use, and reads and watches the World news should have been aware of Israel's disregard for International convention and human life 20 years ago,.... or probably long before that. It's just that this was about the time I started to have doubts, prior to which time I was an ardent supporter of Israel.

Gradually the truth wore down my faith in what they were trying to achieve, and even more so, the way in which they were trying to do it.
 
Every super power has the client state that just refuses to toe the line, for the USA it is Israel, for China it is North Korea. I guess that they realise that they can push the line so hard as the parent state has tied themselves so closely in a public fashion that untangling the knot is worse than putting up with the headaches.
 
Partisan said:
Every super power has the client state that just refuses to toe the line, for the USA it is Israel, for China it is North Korea. I guess that they realise that they can push the line so hard as the parent state has tied themselves so closely in a public fashion that untangling the knot is worse than putting up with the headaches.
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If the world wants peace and a reasonable degree of safety from ongoing Islamic terrorism, the knot is going to have to be untangled one way or the other.

Don't worry, we will get sick of it before the Muslims do, they have been fighting this battle against one enemy or another for 1000 years and although they have lost several of the "battles", they are definitely winning the war in a historical sense.

The longer we wait before finally biting the bullet, the more painful and expensive it is going to be,....not to mention the cost of our most valuable asset,... our youth.

I predict, that as in Vietnam, it will be this factor that will gradually make the voters consider the real options. For the moment people are still fooled by the "Muslim Bogeyman" story without bothering to think why the Muslim world is behaving as it is. People will wake up eventually, that we are paying far too great a price merely to defend a rogue state that is wrongfully occupying the land of another people.

I won't even attempt to put a time frame on it, but believe me, it is a far more likely scenario than the Zionists ever living peacefully in Palestine under Israeli rule.
 
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I can remember a time when the Jews were sending out boats loaded with immigrants to Palestine defying Britain to open fire on them, but they thought nothing about attacking the British. Now whats the difference in what the Palestinian are doing to the people in Gazza, and if you lived in Gazza would you fight to change the conditions being imposed on you by a neighboring state
 
LeEnfield said:
I can remember a time when the Jews were sending out boats loaded with immigrants to Palestine defying Britain to open fire on them, but they thought nothing about attacking the British. Now whats the difference in what the Palestinian are doing to the people in Gazza, and if you lived in Gazza would you fight to change the conditions being imposed on you by a neighboring state
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The difference being that the Brits were not a rogue state willing to kill unarmed civilians just to get their own way.

Unfortunately the World has allowed Israel to use "The Holocaust" as justification to commit crimes against humanity for far to long, now like a badly spoiled child they feel that they are invulnerable, and no longer need to act in accordance with the normal expectations of a civilised society.
 
A Can of Man said:
I have a feeling that such a day will not come no matter what the Israelis do.
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I am not sure I agree as there are several things at play which would influence American support the primary one being the state of the US economy at some point the cost of doing business and support of Israel will simply become too much to bare.

The next major hurdle is the differing opinion of Israel between American Jews I know several (my Mother in law and my Best man) who refuse point blank to support Israel their opinion is not all that dissimilar to Senojekips on the place yet their parents are very pro-Israel so I would suggest that 20-30 years down the track there will be a shift in support there as the more moderate generations become elderly (my understanding though is that there is a big difference in the views between the East and West coast).

I can see this ending in a Paris Accord style scenario where the US says we are done with this you are on your own, good luck.
 
MontyB said:
I can see this ending in a Paris Accord style scenario where the US says we are done with this you are on your own, good luck.
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I look forward to seeing a President with the balls to take on the Israeli lobbyists, think tanks and money men, somehow I don't think that will happen in my lifetime, not whilst a politicians arse points downward, nice idea though!

In this case I think that the American public has to get off its collective backside and decide, that will motivate their leaders. As for the rest of the world, we'll just have to put up with empty air statements by our elected "best", because there is only 1 country that has a chance to make Israel sit up and take notice, not been doing a bang up job so far....
 
No it's impossible.
If you criticize Israel openly, you'll be labelled as an anti-Semite, even if you have no issues with Jews in your own country. For an individual, it's fairly bad enough, but for a politician, it is career suicide.
 
Partisan said:
I look forward to seeing a President with the balls to take on the Israeli lobbyists, think tanks and money men, somehow I don't think that will happen in my lifetime, not whilst a politicians arse points downward, nice idea though!

In this case I think that the American public has to get off its collective backside and decide, that will motivate their leaders. As for the rest of the world, we'll just have to put up with empty air statements by our elected "best", because there is only 1 country that has a chance to make Israel sit up and take notice, not been doing a bang up job so far....
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Not strictly true, any country involved can freeze Israeli assets and if need be use them to cover reparations, I am not certain any countries will want to push it that far but there are precedents that allow for this.

At this point if I was Turkish I would probably be organising another flotilla to repeat the voyage with a naval escort this time and see just how far Israel is prepared to escalate this issue because to be honest the last bunch I would want angry at me in the middle east is the Turks, New Zealand did something similar to protest French the anti-nuclear protests in the Pacific and it was relatively effective.
 
MontyB said:
Not strictly true, any country involved can freeze Israeli assets and if need be use them to cover reparations, I am not certain any countries will want to push it that far but there are precedents that allow for this.

At this point if I was Turkish I would probably be organising another flotilla to repeat the voyage with a naval escort this time and see just how far Israel is prepared to escalate this issue because to be honest the last bunch I would want angry at me in the middle east is the Turks, New Zealand did something similar to protest French the anti-nuclear protests in the Pacific and it was relatively effective.
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Exactly what I'm thinking at the moment, mainly because I don't think Israel would attack Navy ships. If Israel would really push it this far and attack the Turkish Navy, they'd be in one hell of a trouble, and they know it. It's not only Turkey itself, as soon as they try something funny with the Turkish, everyone around Israel would get back in the ring to end what they already started decades ago.

On the other hand, of course, Israel's current government seems to consist of a pack of madmen. Madmen with nukes.
 
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The Israeli lies have started already, after Israeli claims that the passengers were carrying weapons. This has been denied by Turkish Customs authorities who searched no only the vessel but the passengers before embarkation. It would seem that the Israeli's are all pathological liars. The shame is that they are so bad at it.
Officials from the Customs Undersecretariat said every passenger was searched before getting on the ship with the help of X-ray machines and metal detectors. Senior officials from the undersecretariat said Israel's allegations were tantamount to “complete nonsense.”

“Forty-two passengers boarded in İstanbul and 504 passengers got on the ship here. They were screened. We spotted no weapons and there is no such record in our logs. We did not notice anything suspicious about the Mavi Marmara. Had our officers had any suspicions, they would have reported it,” an official, speaking under the condition of anonymity, said.
The undersecretariat has cutting-edge technology at all ports and airports.
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I see that our blatantly pro Israeli members who denied that Israel had prior knowledge of the nationality of USS Liberty are notably conspicuous by their absence???

I'm not a vindictive man, but I do have a bloody long memory.
 
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Ok well given that we don't seem to have a counter argument here I guess I will try...

1) There are provisions under International law for boarding ships bound for blockade zones.

2) There are provisions for "legal" blockades.

3) Much has been made of the ship being in International waters yet nothing has been mentioned as to whether Israel has a 200 mile Economic Exclusion Zone which can in many cases be seen as "Territorial".

Now I am not going to justify Israeli actions which I think were well out of proportion for the situation and should be punished in one way or another but before we start adding piracy to list of charges perhaps we should look a little closer at the legalities (separate from moral issues).
 
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