....editting what u think about muslims... really important

[CABAL]

Hello there Atheer.

Ezhechial and Atheer, you should pay attention for what I have to say. Actually everyone should pay attention.

You and Atheer both distrust each other because of the differences in core beliefs and judgments upon the other religion. In my opinion, respect and honesty is quite possibly the only way you two can get along with each other.

Remember, any particular radical religious group can cross the line in every aspects such as religious persecution, discrimination, and domestic violence. It can happen to anyone and anytime.

 

[Charge 7]

Welcome to the forum atheer!

Well in another topic in another section of the forum, I recently mentioned that my life was quite likely just saved by a Bosnian Muslim so that would be enough right there to give you an idea how I feel about Muslims.

Beyond that though, the absolute dearest friend I have on this earth is a Muslim from Tajikistan. He's also a former Soviet soldier (how's that for detanté?). He calls me "brother" and his daughter calls me "uncle". We've been the best of friends for the last 6 years now. A kinder more considerate man I have never met. When he was having some trouble getting his citizenship here i went with him to the immigration bureau (INS) and spoke up for him. Fortunately, my background had some pull with the local director and he was naturalized. I like so many others have already said, hope that this can be kept from a "Muslims vs. Christians" issue. I think it will. People are blind and stupid on both sides, but people have always been that way to different degrees at other times. Only things like this forum can reach out to one another to enable better understanding. That's what I had hoped most to get out of the internet. So far I've succeeded beyond my imagination.

 

[Missileer]

Atheer and Ezechial, in America there are people who hate someone else for much smaller things than religious views. There is a very small minority of people who refuse to accept anyone who has a different skin color than their own, speak a different language, or worship God in a different way. Fortunately, their kind is limited and becoming more so every day. These are very bad people even though they look like everyone else and go to Church with everyone else. They hate so much that they will kill children so they will not go to school with their children. They hate so much that the hate inside them makes them sick and we have to punish them by law. Some are put to death. I think most countries have these kinds of people but they are not like the majority of us and they have to be controlled by us, their peers. Be kind and treat anyone as you would like to be treated and avoid those who do not do the same.

 

[atheer]

hey hey..
Ezechiel .. slow down ...
who said anything about beeing open minded ..
but since u brought it up ..
i dont deny that there r some poeple who r "without open minded"
and maybe more from ages ago but its diffrent know..
they r less ...

As u know Malaysia has the most open minded social in the Islamic world

.

no actually i didnt know that but thanks 4 the info.

Women have to cover their face with Black cloth

every muslim women covers her face not only in the middle east but every where ... although most of them cover there hair only and thats enough .. but covering her face is better ( thats why sexuall abuses r less)

punishment for crime were extremely violent

i dont think so .. every body gets what he disirves..
the thief gets his hand cut..
the killer gets killed ..
and so on..

Young marriage

hey were happy ..
but no women gets married if she doesnt want 2..
no 1 can make her get married unless she wanted 2 ..
most of the poeple dont consider it young marrige i mean its just a habit..
u know we think that women in other places get married so old..
so that dosent count as beeing not open minded ..

women not being educated

i dont think so .. maby ages ago but not now ..
there r a few poeple who drop out of school but that happens every where..
but most of us dont like beeing cauled uneducated...

And u no need to mention "trying to make me like" for I can think more rasionally

no, no u understood me wrong i really didnt mean 2 ..
im not saying in a bad way in a "its non of my besniuse hate them as u like " way..
im saying it in a "here r the responses 4 ur reosens if u still dont like them its ok.."way
and ofcourse u could think more rasionlly no 1 dares 2 say the oppissete..
sorry if i made u mad ... :lol:


.

 

[SwordFish_13]

Hi,

every muslim women covers her face not only in the middle east but every where ... although most of them cover there hair only and thats enough .. but covering her face is better ( thats why sexuall abuses r less)

I would Like to Object to this Statement "but covering her face is better ( thats why sexuall abuses r less)"

You mean to say there are less Sexual Abuses of Women in Muslim Countries?

I could go into with facts and Figures about numbrs of Abuses in and around Pakistan , Afganistan , Bangladesh ( these are the Muslim Countries Close to me and i have a First hand data about ) .........women living conditions are worse than those of Non-face Covering Women in India.

I am not saying there no Sexula Abuses in India.........

Sorry but i would not agree to that statement ...........and i don't accept that Sexual Abuses are less that way ..........other wise women around the world would have started Covering thair faces................ and problem Solved no sexual Abuses.

It's Like saying the Girl is responsible for her rape :roll:

She Shouldn't have been pretty or She should'nt have been wearing this or that :roll:

I can't Buy that Argument.

Second it's About Resopnce to that Act...........it's the Silence that is more threatning ....

How much it is a Taboo For Women to speak out ......Like Pakistan Interior Minister Quotes last year there Were 2000 cases of Child Abouse but not one have been Procuted .........Why Because it will Give bad name to the Islam so the cases and Hushed up

There were 500 complaints this year of abuse allegedly committed by clerics, Aamer Liaquat Hussain, a minister in the religious affairs department Pakistan, said.

That compares with 2,000 last year, but as yet there have been no successful prosecutions, Mr Hussain told the BBC.

The minister's revelations have sparked death threats and infuriated some religious political leaders.

every muslim women covers her face not only in the middle east but every where

Yes , But is it a Choice or thay have to ?

I mean i have seen Muslims Living here in India ........Not many i know or have seen Cover their faces around here where i live

Speaking of that India has Arguably world's Second largest Muslim Population In the World ...





Peace
-=SF-13=-

 

[Ezechiel]

Malaysia r said to hav most open minded social is because they do not force women to cover their whole face. They will cover there hair only. Secondly, here we hav Disco, snooker shop, pub, night shops. Third, we r not bind wif so many weird rules that is set in Middle East. The young generation have better choice on picking partners for date

Yeah the muslim women must cover things on her head. In Malaysia they only cover their hair. But when u go to Middle east, they covered the whole head with the only colour - Black. It seems to become a law of Islam but not a freedom whether u want to wear or not.

About the marriage issues. I thought some of the muslim countries ppl will have to obey their parents to get marry, but not decided by themselves. I did have a Saudi Arabian frenz told me that the a marriage is decided by "Picking face by picture", but not dating and later marry.........

Hand cut for stealing is violent don't u think? Some punishment like pierce stick into...........Assh*les(sorry I do not know the proper english word) and out from ur mouth,this also being stated in the Islamic law.

Some of the countries like Afghanistan did. Even they have the freedom, I believe the average educating level of women still much lower than Men.

In Malaysia, that will be a big trouble comes upon u if u try to turn urself from Muslim to another religions. The country law will not allow u. So during the church/christian activities, they will specially mention "welcome everyone but except Muslim". But when u turn from a certain religion to Islam, it happens to be ok! I mean this is unfair. It happened to a few cases where a muslim try to change religions, but the case had been processed by courts for such long time, but still haven't been solved yet........

Nono, it is me who worry that I make u mad. It's alwayz pleasure to know more about this through further discussion and explaination.

 

[SHERMAN]

I suggest that we all think before we post, and prevent ourselves from offending others.

 

[atheer]

You mean to say there are less Sexual Abuses of Women in Muslim Countries?

in Saudi Arabia at least..

other wise women around the world would have started Covering thair faces................ and problem Solved no sexual Abuses.

It's Like saying the Girl is responsible for her rape

She Shouldn't have been pretty or She should'nt have been wearing this or that

I can't Buy that Argument.

no but some men cant hold there self if they c a women ...
and i said sexuall abuses r less .. i didnt say there r no sexuall abuses ..
so covering there faces or hair isnt a sloution...
i didnt say the girl is responsible ..
cause once i almost got raped in london and no 1 can say its my fault (I dont cover my face or hair)

Second it's About Resopnce to that Act...........it's the Silence that is more threatning ....

How much it is a Taboo For Women to speak out ......Like Pakistan Interior Minister Quotes last year there Were 2000 cases of Child Abouse but not one have been Procuted .........Why Because it will Give bad name to the Islam so the cases and Hushed up

what does Islam got 2 do with child abouse..
child abouses r every where in the world and poeple from every religion..
so i dont know why there trying 2 hush it up ..
and it isnt my fault if they think that way...

Quote:
every muslim women covers her face not only in the middle east but every where


Yes , But is it a Choice or thay have to ?

no it is a choice ..
u could come here and c 4 ur self ..
my mom dosnt cover her face..


Ezechiel..

Malaysia r said to hav most open minded social is because they do not force women to cover their whole face

i dont know a country that forces a women 2 cover her face i mean its her religion its her relation ship with god and no body could force her 2 do any thing she dosnt want 2 ..
as i said my mom dosent cover her face and lots of women 2 and nobody told them any thing..

Saudi Arabian frenz told me that the a marriage is decided by "Picking face by picture", but not dating and later marry.........

thats funny the guy should c his wife before and talk 2 her a little but not date ..thats what islam says..

Hand cut for stealing is violent don't u think? Some punishment like pierce stick into...........Assh*les(sorry I do not know the proper english word) and out from ur mouth,this also being stated in the Islamic law.

eww who told u that ... i never heard of it .. and if u did what they punnish u this way ...???
and cuting there hands off is not from the first time...
its if he did it again after jail.. he diserves it dont u think..

Some of the countries like Afghanistan did. Even they have the freedom, I believe the average educating level of women still much lower than Men

r books r the same books as boys so no diffrence..

ill continue later i got 2 go now 2 my house
i have exams and my mom wont allow me ..
so c u after 2 weeks..

chaw..

 

[SHERMAN]

I dont know about Saudi Arabia, but there countrys that force the women to cover their face and hair(the Taliban in Afgaghanistan was one, and Iran 2, if im correct). as to the hand chopping practices, while they seem brutal to westerners(my self included), they are very effective, and the level of theaft in countrys that practice them is very low. one cannot dismiss the logic behind laws that have been aroung for 1400 years.

 

[atheer]

hiiii
im back
finally we finished
2 weeks r 2 long..

now lets get back...

In Malaysia, that will be a big trouble comes upon u if u try to turn urself from Muslim to another religions. The country law will not allow u. So during the church/christian activities, they will specially mention "welcome everyone but except Muslim". But when u turn from a certain religion to Islam, it happens to be ok! I mean this is unfair. It happened to a few cases where a muslim try to change religions, but the case had been processed by courts for such long time, but still haven't been solved yet........

ya im with u this time muslims r strict from this part and i know its not fair ..
i think because they get mad 4 changing 2 another religion..
because its a great religion who would want 2 change ..
but they dont know that its non of there besniuse ..
but from the religious way im not really sure but i think its ok 2 change 2 another religion ... its a relation ship between the person and god so its no 1s besniuse ..

I dont know about Saudi Arabia, but there countrys that force the women to cover their face and hair(the Taliban in Afgaghanistan was one, and Iran 2, if im correct)

well thats really non of my besniuse
these poeple r so back and not educated they think they have 2 force..
but thats nothing got 2 do with islam..
its the poeple who put rules the way they like..
and i asure u that islam dosnt force 2 cover ..

while they seem brutal to westerners(my self included)

i dont know why they would be if u didnt do anything ..
they'v got the wrong picture..
they would treat u the same as they treat muslims and punish u the same way (or at least they should)
really im telling ya its not about the religin its about the poeple themselves..
and come on not all of muslims r scary and bite .. in fact most of them r friendly ...




.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I dont know about Saudi Arabia, but there countrys that force the women to cover their face and hair(the Taliban in Afgaghanistan was one, and Iran 2, if im correct). as to the hand chopping practices, while they seem brutal to westerners(my self included), they are very effective, and the level of theaft in countrys that practice them is very low. one cannot dismiss the logic behind laws that have been aroung for 1400 years.

Its easy to know about Saudi Arabia - just check out some resources - MEMRI reports on ME Media quite extensively

In Saudi Arabia most women do cover their faces - women cannot vote or drive or do any number of other things

IN many ways Iran provides more freedom for women than Saudi Arabia

As for not questioning the efficacy of laws 1400 years old - I think I'll differ with you

I don't really want to see stoning and slavery brought back - and those penalties are even older

Please don't romanticize medieval brutality because "it works" - unless you think we should start a few public executions here

Its an interesting thread and I am always encouraged to see ANYONE with such faith and hope for the future -

That being said - this idea that some young muslims go to Aghanistan and get "brain washed" is yet another empty excuse

Of course they are influenced by fanatic islamo facist imams over there - but that sort of thing begins HERE ( and here may be the US or UK or anywhere else )

And on the subject of brain-washing - this idea that it is a good thing to force women to cover their faces because this reduces sexual crime by keeping the men from getting excited - do you have any idea how brain-washed one must be to follow that tortured line of thinking???

It would be like me living in Saudi Arabia and paying an extra tax for being an infidel - and rather than being upset by this - justifying it to myself by saying this helped keep things peaceful


I'm all in favor of looking at these issues - I think in fact these are vital things to discuss - but one really needs to try to be more honest about things on all sides

Most people, muslims and otherwise, are indeed nice and friendly

But to say that all of the issues peculiar to countries with muslim majority populations have nothing to do with Islam does not pass the test of scientific inquiry

Its ok if people choose to be ignorant about things - just understand you are making this choice

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Here's a link from MEMRI by an actual critic of Islam today in Egypt

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD84705

This is the kind of rational examination that is needed - not justifications for medieval laws and self-deluding explanations of why ones second class citizenship is actually for the best

I am gladdened that such men do exist in places like Egypt - they need our support - and what they don't need is for us to be afraid of saying these things from the safety and comfort of afar for fear of offending some mis-informed people ( muslim and otherwise ) - while they are literally risking their lives to say such things

( and we are not 100% safe either - it seems a Coptic Christian family from New Jersey was just ritually slaughtered by some fanatic muslims who objected to their views as expressed in an internet chat room )

 

[SHERMAN]

I suggest you ease up on your self-assurance. Im not ignorant, I have 2 years of Islam and Middle Eastern studies behind me, as a part of my high school education. Im an Israeli, so its hard to accuse me of being a great fan of the arab world. However, knowing many Arabs and muslims, and knowing a bit on Islam, I do believe that it's not any worse a religion than any other. The Crusaders did horrible things in the name of christianity, and the Jewish fanatics did horrible things in the name of their faith as well. Islam has it's nutcases just ike anyother great religion. Islam has some very good sides to it, and dismissing it as brainwash is completely unwise.

 

[USAFAUX2004]

there has been a subject in my school about maturity. it says that you are not mature when the answer has a clear cut yes and no answer, but you are mature when there is a gray area for the answer. these days too many people have the clear cut answer. for ex. all chechens are not bad terrorists. most are not even involved in the war. they just want to live their lives

 

[Whispering Death]

Here's the deal with Americans and Muslims. The good muslims arn't doing themselves any favors by staying silent about terrorism but getting twisted and loud about things like the fox series "24".

 

[Charge 7]

I was very gratified to see your post here, Sherman. If one from your point of view can express such sentiments, it gives me greater hope that all peoples can find common ground. Not going to happen anytime soon of course, but as someone once said, "let it begin with me".

Whispering Death you are lumping a group by the actions of a few. The "good Muslims" are mostly keeping silent in order to not draw attention to themselves in a nation now polorized on Muslims. When my friend can't even go to the supermarket without somebody saying "Hey terrorist! Yeah you! I'm talking to you!" I can hardly blame them for keeping quiet. This doesn't happen all the time of course, but far more often than it should. Some people even talk about rounding all Muslims here up and putting them in camps. Did we learn nothing from WWII and what we did to the Japanese Americans? Intolerance breeds intolerance. We should be decrying the rogue sects most certainly, but not the religion as a whole.

 

[USAFAUX2004]

there are villages in israel that have jews, and muslims living together in peace

 

[Whispering Death]

All I'm saying is how the American public sees things. Sure you can argue me and make me say it is unfair, but regardless of whether it is just or not, it is the perception that deliniates whether someone wants to hug you or shoot you.

The perception is one of speculation because you NEVER see any prominent muslims going out and saying "These Al-Quaida killers must be delivered to American justice" but you do hear "don't racially profile, 24 is derogatory to muslims".

I tell you as history as my witness that if Muslims do not fall into step with their American breatheren then I am afriad I forsee some terrible injustices will befall them.

 

[Charge 7]

Ah yes, perception. I believe a man named Schicklegrubber was the master of that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Whispering Death you are lumping a group by the actions of a few. The "good Muslims" are mostly keeping silent in order to not draw attention to themselves in a nation now polorized on Muslims. When my friend can't even go to the supermarket without somebody saying "Hey terrorist! Yeah you! I'm talking to you!" I can hardly blame them for keeping quiet. This doesn't happen all the time of course, but far more often than it should.

Is that why the "good Muslims" are keeping quiet now? So why were they keeping quiet before 9-11? In 1993 they tried to blow up the WTC, in 1998 they bombed our embassies in Africa, in 2000 they bombed our ship off Yemen

Were these "good Muslims" keeping quiet all this time for the same reason?

Were people abusing your muslim friend in the supermarket then?

This "I can't blame them" stuff goes two ways. The continued silence by all the good Muslims earns them the unfortunate treatment you describe

I wish ignorant people wouldn't generalize in such ways - as much as I wish the good Muslims would take a stand





Some people even talk about rounding all Muslims here up and putting them in camps. Did we learn nothing from WWII and what we did to the Japanese Americans? Intolerance breeds intolerance. We should be decrying the rogue sects most certainly, but not the religion as a whole

Great - lets talk about the Japanese in WW2 - because iirc many joined the US army and went on to form the most decorated combat unit in the war - the 442nd regimental combat team ( Go for Broke! )

Where is its equal today?

Face the truth - the only organized muslim american activity we see is when "24" makes the terrorists muslims and they complain about this - or when suggestions for racial profiling are advanced to increase security

Sorry, but there has been one common factor in every major terrorist attack ( apart from OK City ) and that has been the young male muslim

Worrying about how this may offend some people won't change that


And I do wonder how you define Islam V "Rogue Sects"

Why is OBL part of a rogue sect? Because he does what you consider evil things? Do you know enough about Islam to know if OBL is following it correctly or not?

I would accept that he is part of a rogue sect, were it not for the fact that he has thousands of direct followers at least, and millions of supporters around the world ( I would guess those who actively support his methods and goals number at least in the 10's of millions if not more ) -

And if he is a rogue sect - how many rogue sects are there? The chechens, hamas, hezbollah....they are all rogue sects?

I don't pretend to have all the answers by any means - but I am smart enough to know that simply accepting things without critical review is not going to lead anywhere

Just because Islam is a religion it seems we cannot question it in detail

I put it to you - say I was to suggest that it wasn't Nazism that was the problem but rather a few "rogue groups" like the SS or Gestapo - what would you think of that?

( since someone else brought up Schikelgruber I suppose its ok to bring this up )

Would I be right about Nazism then - or would you say "but millions support that party and its ideology - maybe there is something inherently bad about it"

NO - Islam is not Nazism of course

But follow through the logic and you see what I mean