Bullpup vs. classic rifle designs?

KevinTheCynic said:
Due to training with the British Army, I've used the L85A1 as well as the F88 Austeyr (Australian AUG) and I found both of them comfortable to carry and shoot. And they sure made climbing out of APCs or climbing through windows a lot easier!
The L85A1 seemed to behave better in burst fire than the F88.
I also liked the SUSAT on the L85A1 better than the integrated sight on the F88, I think it's a more accurate sight than the one on the F88. The F88S has a rail to allow various sights to be mounted, I never had the opportunity to use the S variant but sights like the ACOG would improve the accuracy over the original integrated sight.

I don't know what the SUSAT is like in this regard but the F88 sight would fog up sometimes in cold, humid conditions. However I know that in jungle training the L85 rifles were fitted with iron sights rather than the SUSAT so maybe it suffers from the same sort of fogging in humid conditions - can any of the British members add any info on this?

I originally trained on the 7.62x51mm L1A1 SLR, the 5.56x45mm M16A1 and the 9x19mm F1 SMG. I really like the hitting power of the SLR and it, like many battle rifles built in that era, is incredibly tough. The M16A1 had almost no felt recoil and handled very well in burst fire (due to the large recoil buffer and the M193 ammo). The newer M855 round combined with the faster rifling twist makes the recoil more noticeable in the M16A2. The F88 recoil is worse than the M16A2 in burst fire.

I believe that some of the problems associated with bullpups can be fixed by training but a few negative points do remain.
For example, I could change the magazine on the F88 as easily as I could on the SLR (the M16 variants seem much faster to me for mag changes due to the catch design). However, sometimes when you're changing the mag on the F88 you have to shift the rifle a bit and you lose your sight picture (like when I was in the prone position sometimes).
With the shorter overall length of a bullpup, the length between the fore and rear sights is much smaller and so you lose some accuracy (the longer the sight radius the better the overall accuracy). How much is open to debate because these days nearly all bullpups get fitted with optical sights to increase their accuracy.

There are a few other aspects that are interesting but not really problems. For example, I really liked the length of the SLR compared to the F88 when it came to pushing open doors or windows. It was really easy to smash windows with the SLR when you used it like a club, you can't do that so easily with the F88.
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Thank you, Kevin.

I appreciate your knowledge about these things. The major disadvantage with the assault rifle (the SLR and the Swedish G3, (AK-4 in Sweden) is the length of it, even if I am a very tall guy, the lesser tall guys suffer a bit with it. When we were training urban warfare, I should have preferred a lesser long rifle. What do you think about the 5.56?
 
Ghostrider said:
You guys who use the AUG, what do you think about it? I have said it before; I have no experience with bullpup designed rifles. I really like the concept of a bullpup. My experiences are the G3, a quite long assault rifle, but I liked the kinetic energy it delivered. Therefore, I disliked the 5.56 FNC when we got that one. I have no experience of the 6.8 or the 6.5 Grendel, but they seem good to me. I have used the 6.5x55, in a bolt action rifle (Mauser, in Sweden the M-96 rifle)
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I like them. I've used the L85A1 also, I don't rate it as good as the AUG/F88. But conceptually, there's a lot to be said for Bullpups. I'm even thinking about acquiring a Bullpup long range rifle like the Desert Tactical Arms SRS.
 
KevinTheCynic said:
Due to training with the British Army, I've used the L85A1 as well as the F88 Austeyr (Australian AUG) and I found both of them comfortable to carry and shoot. And they sure made climbing out of APCs or climbing through windows a lot easier!
The L85A1 seemed to behave better in burst fire than the F88.
I also liked the SUSAT on the L85A1 better than the integrated sight on the F88, I think it's a more accurate sight than the one on the F88. The F88S has a rail to allow various sights to be mounted, I never had the opportunity to use the S variant but sights like the ACOG would improve the accuracy over the original integrated sight.

I don't know what the SUSAT is like in this regard but the F88 sight would fog up sometimes in cold, humid conditions. However I know that in jungle training the L85 rifles were fitted with iron sights rather than the SUSAT so maybe it suffers from the same sort of fogging in humid conditions - can any of the British members add any info on this?

I originally trained on the 7.62x51mm L1A1 SLR, the 5.56x45mm M16A1 and the 9x19mm F1 SMG. I really like the hitting power of the SLR and it, like many battle rifles built in that era, is incredibly tough. The M16A1 had almost no felt recoil and handled very well in burst fire (due to the large recoil buffer and the M193 ammo). The newer M855 round combined with the faster rifling twist makes the recoil more noticeable in the M16A2. The F88 recoil is worse than the M16A2 in burst fire.

I believe that some of the problems associated with bullpups can be fixed by training but a few negative points do remain.
For example, I could change the magazine on the F88 as easily as I could on the SLR (the M16 variants seem much faster to me for mag changes due to the catch design). However, sometimes when you're changing the mag on the F88 you have to shift the rifle a bit and you lose your sight picture (like when I was in the prone position sometimes).
With the shorter overall length of a bullpup, the length between the fore and rear sights is much smaller and so you lose some accuracy (the longer the sight radius the better the overall accuracy). How much is open to debate because these days nearly all bullpups get fitted with optical sights to increase their accuracy.

There are a few other aspects that are interesting but not really problems. For example, I really liked the length of the SLR compared to the F88 when it came to pushing open doors or windows. It was really easy to smash windows with the SLR when you used it like a club, you can't do that so easily with the F88.
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The SUSAT isn't that good a sight. And yes, Brits deploying to the tropics (Belize, Tully etc) had to replace their SUSATs with iron sights due to fogging.

I never had any trouble with the 1.5x optic on the F88. And I've used them in just about any terrain/condition you can name.

The Picatinny rail has made a huge difference with sighting options. Originally the ELCAn was the designated marksman's sight (I didn't like it) but has now been replaced by the ACOG (a much better unit). The ACOG is too much sight for the average user, and the 1.5x is still adequate for the masses.
 
Ghostrider said:
Thank you, guys,

Kevin, I tried to open your link, it does not work, not here anyway. Now I know about other bullpup weapons without the 5.56

What bullpup weapons are in the service?

Steyr: Austria, Ireland, and Australia (any other country?)
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There is a Thread on AUGs in Tunesia
 
I heard that Zimbabwe bought the early version of the SA80, anyone care to invade? It should be easier as the bloody rifle don't work.
 
Ghostrider said:
is there a bullpup designed rifle out there with the 7.62x51, 6.8x ehh whatever, and/or 6.5 Grendel?
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There is the American Made Kel-Tec RFB Rifle in 7.62x51mm (.308 Winchester). It takes unmodified FN FAL Metric Magazines and has a total length of 26.1 inches and has a 18 inch barrel. It uses a modified FN FAL Gas and Bolt system and ejects the ammunition forward above the barrel just like the FN 2000 series of rifle.

Here is a picture of the RFB compared with a AR-10 with a 20 inch barrel.

DSC09886.JPG
 
Here are my two bullpups....

Microtech Small Arms Research XM17-E4 AUG
100_0818.jpg


It's an American made clone of the Styer AUG A3 except it had a NATO Stock that works with NATO STANAG 4179 Magazines (M16/AR-15 design). Made by a small company called Microtech; they make high end knives and jumped into the rifle market. They went out of business with the collapse of the market after the 2008 elections.

Fabrique National de Herstal FN PS90 (Registered Short Barrel Rifle)
100_0821.jpg


It's a semi-auto version of the FN P90 SMG made by FNH. Came with a 18 inch barrel due to US Federal Law. Paid my $200 tax for it to become a legal short barreled rifle. Now sports the proper 10.1 inch barrel. Has a CMMG thread adapter so I can use any standard AR-15 1/2x28r flash hider or suppressor.


Very soon I will have one of these in the collection.

ksg-tfb.jpg


Kel-Tec's bullpup pump action shotgun. 18 inch barrel with overall length of 26.1 inches. Sports two 7rd magazine tubes that can be switched on the fly. So I can load one with 00 Buck and the other with 1oz Slug. Chambered for 2 3/4 inch and 3 inch shells.
 
5.56X45mm said:
Here are my two bullpups....

Microtech Small Arms Research XM17-E4 AUG
100_0818.jpg


It's an American made clone of the Styer AUG A3 except it had a NATO Stock that works with NATO STANAG 4179 Magazines (M16/AR-15 design). Made by a small company called Microtech; they make high end knives and jumped into the rifle market. They went out of business with the collapse of the market after the 2008 elections.

Fabrique National de Herstal FN PS90 (Registered Short Barrel Rifle)
100_0821.jpg


It's a semi-auto version of the FN P90 SMG made by FNH. Came with a 18 inch barrel due to US Federal Law. Paid my $200 tax for it to become a legal short barreled rifle. Now sports the proper 10.1 inch barrel. Has a CMMG thread adapter so I can use any standard AR-15 1/2x28r flash hider or suppressor.


Very soon I will have one of these in the collection.

ksg-tfb.jpg


Kel-Tec's bullpup pump action shotgun. 18 inch barrel with overall length of 26.1 inches. Sports two 7rd magazine tubes that can be switched on the fly. So I can load one with 00 Buck and the other with 1oz Slug. Chambered for 2 3/4 inch and 3 inch shells.
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You have nice things, are you a collector?
 
5.56X45mm said:
Collecting is a nice way of saying it. I'm more of an addict. :twisted: It's either that or strippers and cocaine.... the firearms are legal.... the hookers and blow aren't.
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we can call it collecting:-P an addiction sound so bad, you are not in a need for a twelve step program (not yet:smile:) this is off topic, but what else do you have?
 
And if you want to get really crazy about bullpups, you could try to get your hands on the Soviet experimental Salvo Rifle, the TKB-059, AKA Pribor-3B AKA Pribor MeRoKa. (MeRoKa is a German term, MehrRohrKanone meaning multi-barrel gun)

Well okay, nobody is really going to get one of these monsters but it would be one hell of a talking piece for a collector!
A three-barrelled assault rifle strongly reminiscent of the Nordenfelt Gun and yes that is a three-piece magazine holding separate ammo for each barrel. The intention was to increase a soldier's hit probability in the Soviet equivalent of the US Army's Project Salvo of the 1950s/1960s
Ejection of empty cases was to the rear behind the magazine. You won't be surprised to learn that recoil was a "bit of a problem".

pribor3bhy1.jpg
 
Ghostrider said:
we can call it collecting:-P an addiction sound so bad, you are not in a need for a twelve step program (not yet:smile:) this is off topic, but what else do you have?
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I have stuff from the 1840s to today. Black powder Hawken Rifles, Colt 1851s, M1 Garands, Mauser K98ks, Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifle, M1 Carbines, Mosin Nagants, GLOCK, S&W, Ruger, FNH, etc....

Right now I have four safes full of firearms. Some are full auto machine guns, some are surpressed, some are short barrel rifles or shotguns, etc....
 
5.56X45mm said:
I have stuff from the 1840s to today. Black powder Hawken Rifles, Colt 1851s, M1 Garands, Mauser K98ks, Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifle, M1 Carbines, Mosin Nagants, GLOCK, S&W, Ruger, FNH, etc....

Right now I have four safes full of firearms. Some are full auto machine guns, some are surpressed, some are short barrel rifles or shotguns, etc....
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Now when I am thinking about it, you might have an addiction:-)
 
Yossarian said:
It's not an addiction unless someone calls you out on it hehe.
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Also is it not an addiction when one knows the action and is happy with it. Alcoholics have addictions because they "problem" and are trying to quit. Daddy didn't raise no quitter! I'm a drunkard and proud of it. :drunkb: :drink:
cheers.gif


Oh wait.... we were talking about me collecting firearms right? :cowb: Then it that case.... yeah... I have an addiction... but it's a fun one! :sniper:
 
Yossarian said:
Sounds like to me you are in dire need of an Intervention...

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But we can stay on topic here :p
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If by intervention you mean the a range day in which there is BBQ, kegs of beer, moonshine, and tons of different flavors of pie? Then yes.... I need that intervention. (Alcohol of course will be served after the shooting and the firearms and ammunition are locked up).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS3vHnEQXBg"]BullpupForum Tavor interview - YouTube[/ame]

Woohoo! The Israeli Tavor Tar-21 is finally coming to the USA. IWI is going to build a plant in the USA and produce those wonderful beautiful firearms and word is possibly even more. Like Uzi Carbines and Pistols, Jericho series handguns, and Galil Rifles.
 
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5.56X45mm said:
If by intervention you mean the a range day in which there is BBQ, kegs of beer, moonshine, and tons of different flavors of pie? Then yes.... I need that intervention. (Alcohol of course will be served after the shooting and the firearms and ammunition are locked up).

BullpupForum Tavor interview - YouTube

Woohoo! The Israeli Tavor Tar-21 is finally coming to the USA. IWI is going to build a plant in the USA and produce those wonderful beautiful firearms and word is possibly even more. Like Uzi Carbines and Pistols, Jericho series handguns, and Galil Rifles.
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Mmm, BBQ, beer, pie, I like the sound of that, and shall we say the next weekend in Fairbanks, Alaska? I need a similar intervention
 
KevinTheCynic said:
And if you want to get really crazy about bullpups, you could try to get your hands on the Soviet experimental Salvo Rifle, the TKB-059, AKA Pribor-3B AKA Pribor MeRoKa. (MeRoKa is a German term, MehrRohrKanone meaning multi-barrel gun)

Well okay, nobody is really going to get one of these monsters but it would be one hell of a talking piece for a collector!
A three-barrelled assault rifle strongly reminiscent of the Nordenfelt Gun and yes that is a three-piece magazine holding separate ammo for each barrel. The intention was to increase a soldier's hit probability in the Soviet equivalent of the US Army's Project Salvo of the 1950s/1960s
Ejection of empty cases was to the rear behind the magazine. You won't be surprised to learn that recoil was a "bit of a problem".



pribor3bhy1.jpg
Click to expand...

What is the caliber on that "thing"? 7.62x39 or something lesser?
 
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