Bullpup vs. classic rifle designs?

Trooper1854 said:
I remember the transition from L1a1 SLR to SA-80. I was part of the training team for the new weapon in my unit.
Oh lord! People were threatening to leave the forces and all kind of things. One CSM refused point blank to have anything to do with it!(He had an attitude adjustment from the RSM!)
As has been said, same barrel length, but more compact.
Though slightly heavier, the SA-80 was easier to carry, especially with the new sling system.
I never had problems firing it in the prone position, and I never knew anyone who did.
The only problem we had with it was reliability, but it was a new weapon.
I never used it in anger, so can not personaly comment there, but I know guys who have and they were happy with it.
More ammo, 30 rounds, though initialy we had 20 round box mags.
Accuracy wise, I found little to choose between them.
I think it was mostly a looks issue. Some bullpups are ugly!
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A family friend, as I mentioned before, was part of the design team of the SA80, he hated it. After some fiddling with the gas system they managed to get it firing. If I remember correctly during the first Gulf War L1A1's had to be shipped out to front line troops because of the poor reliability of the SA80.

As far as I am aware, the SAS refused to have anything to do with it. Can't say I blame them.
 
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BritinAfrica said:
A family friend, as I mentioned before, was part of the design team of the SA80, he hated it. After some fiddling with the gas system they managed to get it firing. If I remember correctly during the first Gulf War L1A1's had to be shipped out to front line troops because of the poor reliability of the SA80.

As far as I am aware, the SAS refused to have anything to do with it. Can't say I blame them.
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Wasn't H&K supposed to incorporate some new design elements into the L 85 platform for the British Armed Forces?
 
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Yes. HK re-worked the gas system and some of the ergonomics to make it more reliable and easier to carry and accessorise.
 
If I was given a choice today, right this minute between the L1A1 and the SA80, it would be a no brainer, I'd pick the L1A1 every time. I knew what I was doing with the old girl.
 
BritinAfrica said:
If I was given a choice today, right this minute between the L1A1 and the SA80, it would be a no brainer, I'd pick the L1A1 every time. I knew what I was doing with the old girl.
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I should prefer a classic design. However, I have never fired a bullpup designed rifle, so I do not know. I am a bit a victim of what I am used to, or rather what I was used to. I disliked the implementation of the 5.56x45 when Sweden replaced the 7.62x51. Becouse I was so used with 7.62x51
 
Ghostrider said:
is there a bullpup designed rifle out there with the 7.62x51, 6.8x ehh whatever, and/or 6.5 Grendel?
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There are bullpup rifles in calibres other than 5.56mm but many of them are not in military service. Of those that are in military service, the ones I can think of without looking up my books are: -

Russian 9x39mm OTs-14 Groza. Also available in 7.62x39mm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ots-14-groza-e.html

Russian 7.62x53mmR SVU
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/svu-and-svu-a-e.html

For a specifically 7.62x51mm, there's a bullpup G3 made by Iran although it isn't certain if it is actually in service.
I read someone's comment somewhere that it was the answer to a question that nobody had asked.
assault1g3.jpg

Specifications here: http://diomil.ir/images/Product/aig/Specifications/assault1g.jpg

There are companies in the US that make bullpup versions of the FN FAL and there's also the Kel-Tec RFB
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/02/09/kel-tec-rfb-762mm-bullpup-rifle/
 
Spartan613 said:
An experimental Bullpup conversion of the L1A1 was tried (in Australia), but it never saw service.
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That would be the KAL1 designed by two Australian Army officers in the 1970s using the main body of the L1A1 and some other parts from the M16A1
300px-KAL1.jpg


There's more info here about the rifle and its designers.

Cheers,
Kevin
 
KevinTheCynic said:
That would be the KAL1 designed by two Australian Army officers in the 1970s using the main body of the L1A1 and some other parts from the M16A1
300px-KAL1.jpg


There's more info here about the rifle and its designers.

Cheers,
Kevin
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Thank you, guys,

Kevin, I tried to open your link, it does not work, not here anyway. Now I know about other bullpup weapons without the 5.56

What bullpup weapons are in the service?

Steyr: Austria, Ireland, and Australia (any other country?)
SA 80: GB, A lot of quality problems in the beginning, but it is solved now, I think
FAMAS: the Fro.....France, never heard anything good or bad about it
Tavor: Israel, Colombia, similar as the FAMAS, have not heard anything about it

FN (Belgium) has one too; the FN 2000 something, can be a prototype
HK (Germany) has one; the G11, seem to be a prototype/experimental

China has one, I have seen it, and I do not know its name
 
My apologies Ghostrider, I'd been to the link about 12-14 months ago so I assumed it would still work :(
I can't get the link to open for me at the moment but I thought that was because my workplace network was blocking it (they have tried to block anything related to weapons).

I'll try it when I get home and see if it is still valid. In the meantime, there's good coverage of the development of the KAL1 on the gun wiki
http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/KAL1_General_Purpose_Infantry_Rifle

The Chinese bullpup you're thinking of is probably the QBZ-95 in 5.8x42mm although they can also provide it in 5.56x45mm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ch/type-95--qbz-95-e.html

Cheers,
Kevin
 
KevinTheCynic said:
My apologies Ghostrider, I'd been to the link about 12-14 months ago so I assumed it would still work :(
I can't get the link to open for me at the moment but I thought that was because my workplace network was blocking it (they have tried to block anything related to weapons).

I'll try it when I get home and see if it is still valid. In the meantime, there's good coverage of the development of the KAL1 on the gun wiki
http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/KAL1_General_Purpose_Infantry_Rifle

The Chinese bullpup you're thinking of is probably the QBZ-95 in 5.8x42mm although they can also provide it in 5.56x45mm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ch/type-95--qbz-95-e.html

Cheers,
Kevin
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Do not worry, mate.

Nice website, the Russian one, I will save it, thanks. It was the Chinese weapon I had in my mind. So they are blocking interesting websites there you are working, huh? That sucks:)

ps, I am Swedish, but I am not in Sweden. I am in ehh where in hxll am I?

take care,

G
 
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KevinTheCynic said:
Hey Ghostrider, I've found the working link for the KAL1 rifle, the one I originally supplied is way out of date but this one is the current link.
http://www.nvtech.com.au/ProjPast/GP_Inf_Rifle/GPIR-1-Intro.html

There's a lot of background to the inventor himself on that page but enough useful info on the development of the KAL1 to be worth having a look.

Cheers,
Kevin
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Thank you, Kevin. Interesting reading, when we have a classic designed rifle, the issues if the user is left-handed or right-handed is lesser. I remember some left handed people could use the G3 and the FNC, even if it took them a bit longer to reload, but after a while it worked out well for them. With a bullpup configuration, they can not; they will get the empty cartridge in the face. You get the bull pup weapon for left handed users? Some weapons today can be delivered for both right handed and left handed users (Future weapons: Magpul Masada, REC7) I am not sure about the REC 7
 
Ghostrider said:
Thank you, Kevin. Interesting reading, when we have a classic designed rifle, the issues if the user is left-handed or right-handed is lesser. I remember some left handed people could use the G3 and the FNC, even if it took them a bit longer to reload, but after a while it worked out well for them. With a bullpup configuration, they can not; they will get the empty cartridge in the face. You get the bull pup weapon for left handed users? Some weapons today can be delivered for both right handed and left handed users (Future weapons: Magpul Masada, REC7) I am not sure about the REC 7
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The AUG/F88 is easily converted for left-handed shooters so that it ejects out the other side.

New Zealand actually took delivery of the F88 ahead of Australia. Theirs came with a different sight reticle to the Australian version.
 
Spartan613 said:
The AUG/F88 is easily converted for left-handed shooters so that it ejects out the other side.

New Zealand actually took delivery of the F88 ahead of Australia. Theirs came with a different sight reticle to the Australian version.
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I believe we also sold a small batch of F88s to Malaysia and Indonesia for them to test & evaluate. I know Malaysia actually had a licence agreement with Steyr to manufacture the AUG.

As a point of interest, the US Immigration/Customs uses the AUG
 
KevinTheCynic said:
I believe we also sold a small batch of F88s to Malaysia and Indonesia for them to test & evaluate. I know Malaysia actually had a licence agreement with Steyr to manufacture the AUG.

As a point of interest, the US Immigration/Customs uses the AUG
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You guys who use the AUG, what do you think about it? I have said it before; I have no experience with bullpup designed rifles. I really like the concept of a bullpup. My experiences are the G3, a quite long assault rifle, but I liked the kinetic energy it delivered. Therefore, I disliked the 5.56 FNC when we got that one. I have no experience of the 6.8 or the 6.5 Grendel, but they seem good to me. I have used the 6.5x55, in a bolt action rifle (Mauser, in Sweden the M-96 rifle)
 
Due to training with the British Army, I've used the L85A1 as well as the F88 Austeyr (Australian AUG) and I found both of them comfortable to carry and shoot. And they sure made climbing out of APCs or climbing through windows a lot easier!
The L85A1 seemed to behave better in burst fire than the F88.
I also liked the SUSAT on the L85A1 better than the integrated sight on the F88, I think it's a more accurate sight than the one on the F88. The F88S has a rail to allow various sights to be mounted, I never had the opportunity to use the S variant but sights like the ACOG would improve the accuracy over the original integrated sight.

I don't know what the SUSAT is like in this regard but the F88 sight would fog up sometimes in cold, humid conditions. However I know that in jungle training the L85 rifles were fitted with iron sights rather than the SUSAT so maybe it suffers from the same sort of fogging in humid conditions - can any of the British members add any info on this?

I originally trained on the 7.62x51mm L1A1 SLR, the 5.56x45mm M16A1 and the 9x19mm F1 SMG. I really like the hitting power of the SLR and it, like many battle rifles built in that era, is incredibly tough. The M16A1 had almost no felt recoil and handled very well in burst fire (due to the large recoil buffer and the M193 ammo). The newer M855 round combined with the faster rifling twist makes the recoil more noticeable in the M16A2. The F88 recoil is worse than the M16A2 in burst fire.

I believe that some of the problems associated with bullpups can be fixed by training but a few negative points do remain.
For example, I could change the magazine on the F88 as easily as I could on the SLR (the M16 variants seem much faster to me for mag changes due to the catch design). However, sometimes when you're changing the mag on the F88 you have to shift the rifle a bit and you lose your sight picture (like when I was in the prone position sometimes).
With the shorter overall length of a bullpup, the length between the fore and rear sights is much smaller and so you lose some accuracy (the longer the sight radius the better the overall accuracy). How much is open to debate because these days nearly all bullpups get fitted with optical sights to increase their accuracy.

There are a few other aspects that are interesting but not really problems. For example, I really liked the length of the SLR compared to the F88 when it came to pushing open doors or windows. It was really easy to smash windows with the SLR when you used it like a club, you can't do that so easily with the F88.
 
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