I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
It depends on if 5.56 is sober or not. If he is sober something interesting, if he is drunk, he will end up with something creative that beat the Russian bullpup. :smil:
Bullpup vs. classic rifle designs?
It depends on if 5.56 is sober or not. If he is sober something interesting, if he is drunk, he will end up with something creative that beat the Russian bullpup. :smil:
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
Like a 30mm Gatling cannon mixed with a quater ton pickup?...
Hmm...
We need a parts list NOW!
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Yeah, something similar to that.
The list...hmm...where to start,
1. A quarter ton pickup
2. A 30mm Gatling
3. A Mortar, yes I want a mortar, the one they showed on Future Weapons, designed for the US Marines
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Oh man.... if I was let loose in a proper machine shop.
12 Gauge Smooth Bore invector choked hopper fed electrically driven Gatling gun. The idea of that makes me happy. Load the thing up with 00 Buck and have it mounted on the back of my truck.... hehehehehehehe. Fun.
If I was drunk in a machine shop. I'd come up with something crazy and odd ball. Magazine fed black powder bolt action musket. Brass cartridge tube that would contain a a .75 caliber musket ball and FFFg powder backed with a percussion cap. The bolt action is simply to chamber the extract the brass cartridge tube. The hammer would be a self cocking piece that you would have to draw back manually. Pretty much it would be a mixture between a M1903, M1873 Trapdoor, and a Brown Bess Musket. Oh and it would be smooth bore for buck and ball loads. Barrel length would be 66 inches and all the fittings except the barrel and bolt would be brass. The receiver would be an extension of the barrel. Bolt handle would be straight. Bayonet would be socket spike of 18 inches in length and would be color case harden steel. The barrel and bolt would be in the white. Wood would be a fine rose oak.
There would also be a carbine version for cavalry.
Why would I make such a thing? Because I'm crazy and like odd ball stuff.
12 Gauge Smooth Bore invector choked hopper fed electrically driven Gatling gun. The idea of that makes me happy. Load the thing up with 00 Buck and have it mounted on the back of my truck.... hehehehehehehe. Fun.
If I was drunk in a machine shop. I'd come up with something crazy and odd ball. Magazine fed black powder bolt action musket. Brass cartridge tube that would contain a a .75 caliber musket ball and FFFg powder backed with a percussion cap. The bolt action is simply to chamber the extract the brass cartridge tube. The hammer would be a self cocking piece that you would have to draw back manually. Pretty much it would be a mixture between a M1903, M1873 Trapdoor, and a Brown Bess Musket. Oh and it would be smooth bore for buck and ball loads. Barrel length would be 66 inches and all the fittings except the barrel and bolt would be brass. The receiver would be an extension of the barrel. Bolt handle would be straight. Bayonet would be socket spike of 18 inches in length and would be color case harden steel. The barrel and bolt would be in the white. Wood would be a fine rose oak.
There would also be a carbine version for cavalry.
Why would I make such a thing? Because I'm crazy and like odd ball stuff.
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
You would have been the host of future weapons 19th century edition back in the day.:rock:
Have you seen the vid of the SUV that the Secret Service has with a minigun in the back?
The US bought 1,000 bolt action noncartridge rifles in 1863!
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
If I really want to go crazy with Bill Gates level of cash at my disposal. I'd do the following just because I can.
Beretta 92/96Elite II/Vertec Hybrid but chambered in 10mm Auto and it would be a single stack design for the magazine.
Browning Hi-Power in a single stack .45 ACP.
H&K G41 but with a modernized stock and receiver. Have an adapter on the back to use a M4 Buffer Tube so different stocks can be used like a LMT SOPMOD, modern rail on the receiver bridge, front sight will be a rail post so both the front and rear can be changed by the user.
FN P90 but in 9x19mm, .40 S&W, and last but not least, .22LR training version.
Modern Day production of the Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 action but chambered in 7.6x39mm and my own cartridge design; the ..357x45mm. A .357 caliber 158 grain projectile in a 45mm length case. The rifle would have a 16 inch barrel and would be offered with flip up iron sights and a full length rail for the option to mount either a traditional scope or a scout scope or even to co-witness a red dot optic with the irons. It would be marketed for a brush/hog gun. Detachable box magazine of course. For the 7.62x39mm it would work with AK-47 pattern mags and would be packaged from factory with two Hungarian 20rd mag. The .357x45mm would be with a five and a ten round magazine. Barrel of course would be threaded for use of a flash hider or suppressor.
The idea of the cartridge is to give shooters the chance to really play with some higher pressures since it would use the same projectiles used for the .357 Magnum but give it further range and greater punch. Also I would market this cartridge in other platforms such as a smaller compact version of the Browning BLR '81 and the Remington 7600. This would strictly be a commercial hunting cartridge and it would be sold across the pond to countries that ban the ownership of military cartridges, action types, and diameter restrictions. From my research most countries that allow the ownership of firearms allow the .357 Magnum or the .38 Special. It's popular to my knowledge in South and Central America, South Africa, and parts of Europe.
Beretta 92/96Elite II/Vertec Hybrid but chambered in 10mm Auto and it would be a single stack design for the magazine.
Browning Hi-Power in a single stack .45 ACP.
H&K G41 but with a modernized stock and receiver. Have an adapter on the back to use a M4 Buffer Tube so different stocks can be used like a LMT SOPMOD, modern rail on the receiver bridge, front sight will be a rail post so both the front and rear can be changed by the user.
FN P90 but in 9x19mm, .40 S&W, and last but not least, .22LR training version.
Modern Day production of the Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 action but chambered in 7.6x39mm and my own cartridge design; the ..357x45mm. A .357 caliber 158 grain projectile in a 45mm length case. The rifle would have a 16 inch barrel and would be offered with flip up iron sights and a full length rail for the option to mount either a traditional scope or a scout scope or even to co-witness a red dot optic with the irons. It would be marketed for a brush/hog gun. Detachable box magazine of course. For the 7.62x39mm it would work with AK-47 pattern mags and would be packaged from factory with two Hungarian 20rd mag. The .357x45mm would be with a five and a ten round magazine. Barrel of course would be threaded for use of a flash hider or suppressor.
The idea of the cartridge is to give shooters the chance to really play with some higher pressures since it would use the same projectiles used for the .357 Magnum but give it further range and greater punch. Also I would market this cartridge in other platforms such as a smaller compact version of the Browning BLR '81 and the Remington 7600. This would strictly be a commercial hunting cartridge and it would be sold across the pond to countries that ban the ownership of military cartridges, action types, and diameter restrictions. From my research most countries that allow the ownership of firearms allow the .357 Magnum or the .38 Special. It's popular to my knowledge in South and Central America, South Africa, and parts of Europe.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Back on track since this started to get off topic....
Oh, will you look at that. It's a Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup Shotgun in OD Green! And what's next to it? It's a Desert Tan Kel-Teck RFB!
And what do we find in my hands? It's another Kel-Tec KSG except this on has the screw in chokes. Woohoo! And behind my ugly mug is the back end of a Kel-Tec RFB.
Oh, will you look at that. It's a Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup Shotgun in OD Green! And what's next to it? It's a Desert Tan Kel-Teck RFB!
And what do we find in my hands? It's another Kel-Tec KSG except this on has the screw in chokes. Woohoo! And behind my ugly mug is the back end of a Kel-Tec RFB.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Back on track since this started to get off topic....
Oh, will you look at that. It's a Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup Shotgun in OD Green! And what's next to it? It's a Desert Tan Kel-Teck RFB!
And what do we find in my hands? It's another Kel-Tec KSG except this on has the screw in chokes. Woohoo! And behind my ugly mug is the back end of a Kel-Tec RFB.
Will they be a part of your collection? Some people collect coins, some collect stamps, you, my friend collect....more interesting stuff. Perhaps a stupid question. The OD green colored shotgun has a black thing on its stock, what is that?
KevinTheCynic
Active member
In the info I've read it's stated as being 7.62x39mm
The information that's available says that it was an experiment to increase the hit probability of the standard infantryman - pretty much the same goal as the US Army's Project Salvo from the 1950s/1960s.
(As a side note, the caseless G11 was also influenced by the requirements for Project Salvo, it's interesting to see what different nations came up with for the same requirement.)
As for the ammo requirements, the information available in English indicates that it fired all three barrels (either together or in quick succession) so that three rounds were heading downrange for one pull of the trigger.
So if your typical ammo load was 120 rounds in 4x30-rd mags, the poor sod carrying the Pribor-3B would have to carry three times that to have the "same" effective ammo load.
I have some confusion over the magazines, it's not entirely clear from the information and photos if they are 3x30-rds or 3x20-rds.
No matter what size they are, considering the way the magazines were constructed (basically 3 normal mags as one big magazine), imagine the ammo pouch you'd need to carry those monsters!
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
The black piece in question is a hand stop. It i threto keep one's pretty little fingers fron getting in front of the barrel. Also it serves as a grip for working the slide.
KevinTheCynic
Active member
I'm going old school here and delving back into the mists of time (oh spooky... well, maybe not...)
Image of what is thought to be the earliest known bullpup rifle, the Thornycroft Carbine (apologies for linking but images for the carbine are as rare as rocking-horse s**t so by necessity I've used militaryimages.net)
alternate configuration
Image of what is thought to be the earliest known bullpup rifle, the Thornycroft Carbine (apologies for linking but images for the carbine are as rare as rocking-horse s**t so by necessity I've used militaryimages.net)
alternate configuration
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I have never even heard of these rifles. Good find Kevin.
KevinTheCynic
Active member
Cheers Brit. I have to admit I'm a bit of a military smallarms & military vehicle nerd so I've poked around some dusty old books here and there chasing up obscure references. While there's information known about the Thornycroft Carbine, images are few and far between, I think the two I posted are the only ones on the net.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Here are two American Prototypes...
M1903 Springfield Cavalry Bullpup Carbine Prototype
T31 .30 Caliber Bullpup Carbine Prototype. design by John C. Garand. second photo is Mr. Garand holding the T31.
Both rifles shown are chambered for .30-06 Springfield. The first is a bolt action and the second is a gas feed semi-automatic.
M1903 Springfield Cavalry Bullpup Carbine Prototype
T31 .30 Caliber Bullpup Carbine Prototype. design by John C. Garand. second photo is Mr. Garand holding the T31.
Both rifles shown are chambered for .30-06 Springfield. The first is a bolt action and the second is a gas feed semi-automatic.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Rolls Royce also produce a machine gun during WW2, they were told to stop buggering about and concentrate on making aero engines, or words to that effect. There was also a NZ semi automatic version of a number 1 Mk3 Lee Enfield, a good idea but a bit bulky.
I would hazard a guess and say that you probably know about the EM2 produce at Enfield Lock, a family friend worked on the EM2 and the SA80. I use to chat to him for hours about firearms, brilliant chap.
KevinTheCynic
Active member
Hey 5.56 thanks for posting those images, while I knew of those weapons I had only ever seen pics of the T31. The pic of Mr Garand holding the T31 is also new to me, it gives some perspective on the size and ergonomics of the rifle that's lacking in the 'studio' photos.
KevinTheCynic
Active member
Ah yes, the experimental .50 cal aircraft MG! They were going to chamber it in .55 Boys, now that would have been a hell of a machinegun!
If you can get a hold of the 7th edition of Military Small Arms of the 20th Century by Ian Hogg & John Weeks, there's an image of the gun on page 344. ISBN for the book is 0-87341-824-7 (yes I'm a book nerd, I have that edition along with a couple of others!)
The New Zealand weapon you speak of is the Charlton Automatic Rifle and like the RR machinegun, there's precious few examples left anywhere. There were two versions, the New Zealand model (using Lee-Metford and Magazine, Lee Enfield rifles) and an Australian version (using the SMLE Mk III*) built by, of all things, Electrolux!
Anyway, back to the Thornycroft Carbine, here's some hard data (courtesy of Military Small Arms of the 20th Century 1st edition, again by Hogg & Weeks)
Built in 1901 as a private venture, the work of James Baird Thorneycroft and according to the authors (who had very good access to the Pattern Room at the Royal Armoury), it handled well and was comfortable to hold and sight).
Calibre: .303 SAA Ball
Length: 993mm (39.12in)
Weight unloaded: 3.40kg (7lb 8oz)
Barrel: 635mm (25.00in) 4 grooves, right-hand twist
Magazine: 5-rd integral box
Muzzle velocity: c.745m/s (c.2450fps)
The Thornycroft Carbine was followed by another private venture, the Godsal Rifle. Designed in 1902 by Major Philip Thomas Godsal but apparently not built until 1904. Godsal was an enthusiastic shooter who had represented England at international shooting competitions on a number of occasions. He designed the Godsal in part to address what he saw as failings in the Lee series of rifles.
Calibre: .303 SAA Ball
Length: 1143mm (45.00in)
Weight unloaded: 3.20kg (7lb 2oz)
Barrel: 756mm (29.75in) 4 grooves, right-hand twist
Magazine: 5-rd integral box
Muzzle velocity: c.747m/s (c.2450fps)
Unfortunately, until I can get another scanner, this is the only image of the Godsal rifle I can find on the net, courtesy of a damned fine page by E. W. Ashworth on the early bullpup rifles found here http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ernest.ashworth/index.htm His entire site is small but well worth a read if you're a firearms enthusiast.
P.S. Damn! I meant to add I am definitely jealous of you Brit. I've only passed Enfield Lock when I was in the UK in 2010, that's as close as I ever got. It would have been brilliant to be able to talk to someone who actually worked there especially about the EM1 and EM2!
Last edited:
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I lived about 5 miles from Enfield Lock, often I heard them testing BREN's and GPMG's and other kit. The site was on an Island in the River Lea. The site was closed down years ago (20 years+/-) and nowadays sad to say, it's an housing estate. Bloody disgraceful. The Pattern Room had the worlds finest collect of small arms, which I believe has moved up to Hull.
I had no idea that the Roll Royce machine gun was going to be in the Boys 55 calibre, but in all honesty the 20mm cannon was a better choice for aircraft. Unless of course it was a Mosquito which was armed with four 303 machine guns and four cannon. There are quite a few ex RAF types living here, one Mossie pilot told me that she was a brilliant gun platform.
When the site closed down our family friend moved up north somewhere, sadly he died when he was in his mid 50's. The guy was an ex RAF armourer, and he was a mine of information. He actually tried to get me a job at Enfield Lock in his department (probably as tea boy or sweeping up), but as the place was closing I didn't get it. If I had, I could have made you even more jealous. lol
I was watching TV a few weeks ago watching a TV docu/drama of WW2. Now I was always under the impression that the BREN was made in only two factories during WW2, one was Enfield Lock and the other Inglis in Canada. Back to the docu/drama, a pongo was walking past the camera carrying a BREN and there for all the world to see was stamped on the side LITHGOW. I wasn't aware that the Aussies made BREN's. Unless it was FTR or "Factory Through Repair."
I just checked and Lithgow did actually build BREN's from 1938. Goes to show, never too old to learn.
The Luftwaffe attempted to bomb Enfield Lock quite a few times, my poor old granddad was machine gunned while in a pup when a bomber was shot down by a Spitfire. Although unhurt I understand he really got annoyed lol.
I had no idea that the Roll Royce machine gun was going to be in the Boys 55 calibre, but in all honesty the 20mm cannon was a better choice for aircraft. Unless of course it was a Mosquito which was armed with four 303 machine guns and four cannon. There are quite a few ex RAF types living here, one Mossie pilot told me that she was a brilliant gun platform.
When the site closed down our family friend moved up north somewhere, sadly he died when he was in his mid 50's. The guy was an ex RAF armourer, and he was a mine of information. He actually tried to get me a job at Enfield Lock in his department (probably as tea boy or sweeping up), but as the place was closing I didn't get it. If I had, I could have made you even more jealous. lol
I was watching TV a few weeks ago watching a TV docu/drama of WW2. Now I was always under the impression that the BREN was made in only two factories during WW2, one was Enfield Lock and the other Inglis in Canada. Back to the docu/drama, a pongo was walking past the camera carrying a BREN and there for all the world to see was stamped on the side LITHGOW. I wasn't aware that the Aussies made BREN's. Unless it was FTR or "Factory Through Repair."
I just checked and Lithgow did actually build BREN's from 1938. Goes to show, never too old to learn.
The Luftwaffe attempted to bomb Enfield Lock quite a few times, my poor old granddad was machine gunned while in a pup when a bomber was shot down by a Spitfire. Although unhurt I understand he really got annoyed lol.
Last edited:
KevinTheCynic
Active member
Yeah I saw a lot of those houses from the estate at Enfield Lock. Well, at least the back end of them - I was on the Stansted Express to London after returning from Poland. None of my companions knew of the significance but me being a gun-head, I was more than a little excited about passing through Enfield!
*Drifting a little off topic here - sorry everyone
As for Lithgow, they produced not only the Bren but also the Vickers including the Mk V aircraft and Mk XXI tank gun variants. In regards to the Bren, Lithgow made Mk I, Mk I (Upgraded) - a Mk I fitted with the Mk II barrel, butt & bipod - and eventually barrel assemblies and magazines for the L4A4 Brens that were built in the UK for our use. Lithgow also rechambered Maxim MG08 machineguns captured during WW1 to .303 for WW2 emergency use.
I've seen a few references to our 7.62mm Brens being all L4A4 models but I personally had my hands on an L4A2 in 1991 during Exercise Spiderman 91 (probably not such a shock considering, as mentioned above, we sourced all our 7.62mm Brens from the UK).
If you're interested in the Aussie military smallarms experience, this site has a reasonable amount of info Military Guns Australia or alternately you could chase up some of Ian Skennerton's books specifically ‘AUSTRALIAN MILITARY RIFLES & BAYONETS’ and ‘AUSTRALIAN SERVICE MACHINEGUNS’. His site can be found here http://www.skennerton.com/books.html
Yeah yeah, I own both those books lol
*Drifting a little off topic here - sorry everyone
As for Lithgow, they produced not only the Bren but also the Vickers including the Mk V aircraft and Mk XXI tank gun variants. In regards to the Bren, Lithgow made Mk I, Mk I (Upgraded) - a Mk I fitted with the Mk II barrel, butt & bipod - and eventually barrel assemblies and magazines for the L4A4 Brens that were built in the UK for our use. Lithgow also rechambered Maxim MG08 machineguns captured during WW1 to .303 for WW2 emergency use.
I've seen a few references to our 7.62mm Brens being all L4A4 models but I personally had my hands on an L4A2 in 1991 during Exercise Spiderman 91 (probably not such a shock considering, as mentioned above, we sourced all our 7.62mm Brens from the UK).
If you're interested in the Aussie military smallarms experience, this site has a reasonable amount of info Military Guns Australia or alternately you could chase up some of Ian Skennerton's books specifically ‘AUSTRALIAN MILITARY RIFLES & BAYONETS’ and ‘AUSTRALIAN SERVICE MACHINEGUNS’. His site can be found here http://www.skennerton.com/books.html
Yeah yeah, I own both those books lol