Bullpup vs. classic rifle designs?

KevinTheCynic said:
Yeah I saw a lot of those houses from the estate at Enfield Lock. Well, at least the back end of them - I was on the Stansted Express to London after returning from Poland. None of my companions knew of the significance but me being a gun-head, I was more than a little excited about passing through Enfield!

*Drifting a little off topic here - sorry everyone :(
As for Lithgow, they produced not only the Bren but also the Vickers including the Mk V aircraft and Mk XXI tank gun variants. In regards to the Bren, Lithgow made Mk I, Mk I (Upgraded) - a Mk I fitted with the Mk II barrel, butt & bipod - and eventually barrel assemblies and magazines for the L4A4 Brens that were built in the UK for our use. Lithgow also rechambered Maxim MG08 machineguns captured during WW1 to .303 for WW2 emergency use.

I've seen a few references to our 7.62mm Brens being all L4A4 models but I personally had my hands on an L4A2 in 1991 during Exercise Spiderman 91 (probably not such a shock considering, as mentioned above, we sourced all our 7.62mm Brens from the UK).

If you're interested in the Aussie military smallarms experience, this site has a reasonable amount of info Military Guns Australia or alternately you could chase up some of Ian Skennerton's books specifically ‘AUSTRALIAN MILITARY RIFLES & BAYONETS’ and ‘AUSTRALIAN SERVICE MACHINEGUNS’. His site can be found here http://www.skennerton.com/books.html

Yeah yeah, I own both those books lol :p
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As I said, just goes to show your never too old to learn.

When I joined the RAF we still had BREN's in 303. After my first magazine and going bonkers (first time I had fired fully auto) the RAF Regiment instructor said, "At least you'd scare the crap out of someone."

When I was in the RCT in the 1980's we were issued BREN's, Mk3's if i remember correctly but they were all badly worn. I was checking a gun on "R" and she fired fully auto, a Rupert fired a BREN and she run away.
 
BritinAfrica said:
As I said, just goes to show your never too old to learn.

When I joined the RAF we still had BREN's in 303. After my first magazine and going bonkers (first time I had fired fully auto) the RAF Regiment instructor said, "At least you'd scare the crap out of someone."

When I was in the RCT in the 1980's we were issued BREN's, Mk3's if i remember correctly but they were all badly worn. I was checking a gun on "R" and she fired fully auto, a Rupert fired a BREN and she run away.
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You crazy old timer.... I thought back in your day the RAF was kites and your armory was stocked with Brown Bess Muskets. Wasn't the India Land Pattern Musket the newest piece of kit when you served? :mrgreen:


What a shame to what's happened to the UK and it's arms industry. I remember reading about how England was one of the best in the world with small arms. But now it's gotten to the point that they have to have foreign industry design, develop, produce, or fix their small arms. The SA80 was a mess until H&K fixed it and even then it's still a mess.
 
5.56X45mm said:
You crazy old timer.... I thought back in your day the RAF was kites and your armory was stocked with Brown Bess Muskets. Wasn't the India Land Pattern Musket the newest piece of kit when you served? :mrgreen:


What a shame to what's happened to the UK and it's arms industry. I remember reading about how England was one of the best in the world with small arms. But now it's gotten to the point that they have to have foreign industry design, develop, produce, or fix their small arms. The SA80 was a mess until H&K fixed it and even then it's still a mess.
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Actually the L85A2 variant is quite well liked by many of the troops because the initial problems with the L85 system have been sorted. It's no more a mess than any other weapons system.
There's still a lot of negative press about the L85A2 simply because the people writing those articles haven't bothered to ask the troops anything. Instead they've just written their articles based on what they knew of the L85 and L85A1.
 
5.56X45mm said:
You crazy old timer.... I thought back in your day the RAF was kites and your armory was stocked with Brown Bess Muskets. Wasn't the India Land Pattern Musket the newest piece of kit when you served? :mrgreen:
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Cheeky bugger lol. Aeroplanes were still called kites, a crash was a prang, a crash someone walked away from was a wizard prang, DI's were Scottish and officers were called Ruperts. As far as I remember the oldest bit of kit we had in the armoury was the crossbow lined up next to the Number 4 Lee Enfield's and BREN's. I'm sure there was a Vickers or two hiding in there somewhere.

5.56X45mm said:
What a shame to what's happened to the UK and it's arms industry. I remember reading about how England was one of the best in the world with small arms. But now it's gotten to the point that they have to have foreign industry design, develop, produce, or fix their small arms. The SA80 was a mess until H&K fixed it and even then it's still a mess.
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Tell me about it. So many arms factories have closed down or sold off, BSA, LSA, Parker Hale, Enfield Lock, Vickers, Maltby, Fazakerley, Waltham Abbey (Powder mills) and dozens of private companies. All gone.

I never did like the SA80, and I never will. The best rifle I were ever issued (apart from the Number 4) was the L1A1. As a matter of interest (if my memory is correct), the first ever FN FAL was built at Enfield Lock. The design and plans of the original FAL were smuggled out before the German invasion.

A few years ago a British bi monthly firearm magazine "Hangunner" wrote an expos on the SA 80. Government heavies moved in and closed them down until a court order allowed then to start publishing again.

The family friend who worked on the SA80 suggested that the whole project should be scrapped, his boss stated it's general issue was political. If it had been cancelled a lot of politicians and so called government experts would have had egg on their faces
 
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BritinAfrica said:
Cheeky bugger lol. Aeroplanes were still called kites, a crash was a prang, a crash someone walked away from was a wizard prang, DI's were Scottish and officers were called Ruperts. As far as I remember the oldest bit of kit we had in the armoury was the crossbow lined up next to the Number 4 Lee Enfield's and BREN's. I'm sure there was a Vickers or two hiding in there somewhere.



Tell me about it. So many arms factories have closed down or sold off, BSA, LSA, Parker Hale, Enfield Lock, Vickers, Maltby, Fazakerley, Waltham Abbey (Powder mills) and dozens of private companies. All gone.

I never did like the SA80, and I never will. The best rifle I were ever issued (apart from the Number 4) was the L1A1. As a matter of interest (if my memory is correct), the first ever FN FAL was built at Enfield Lock. The design and plans of the original FAL were smuggled out before the German invasion.

A few years ago a British bi monthly firearm magazine "Hangunner" wrote an expos on the SA 80. Government heavies moved in and closed them down until a court order allowed then to start publishing again.

The family friend who worked on the SA80 suggested that the whole project should be scrapped, his boss stated it's general issue was political. If it had been cancelled a lot of politicians and so called government experts would have had egg on their faces
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it wasn't the FAL designs that were brought to England it was the FAL's Granddaddy that went to the UK. The FN-49; which was a pre-war design.I own one and you can where were it evolved into the FN FAL.

2011-07-25132250.jpg

FN-49 is the bottom rifle in this picture.... behold my ugly toes too. :avi:

2011-07-25132211.jpg

It's on top for this picture.
 
5.56X45mm said:
it wasn't the FAL designs that were brought to England it was the FAL's Granddaddy that went to the UK. The FN-49; which was a pre-war design.I own one and you can where were it evolved into the FN FAL.

2011-07-25132250.jpg

FN-49 is the bottom rifle in this picture.... behold my ugly toes too. :avi:

2011-07-25132211.jpg

It's on top for this picture.
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Some bits of foriegn engineering are just to beautiful not to like.
 
The FN-49 was designed for 8MM & the Belgians were surprised that the British were OK with it, had it possibly gone into production during the War because the Brits were buiding tank machine guns in 8MM. Rather bizarre, British buddy looked into it & there were 8MM Mgs made, supposedly to get something with a little more power than the .303, thought they were about equal.
 
George said:
The FN-49 was designed for 8MM & the Belgians were surprised that the British were OK with it, had it possibly gone into production during the War because the Brits were buiding tank machine guns in 8MM. Rather bizarre, British buddy looked into it & there were 8MM Mgs made, supposedly to get something with a little more power than the .303, thought they were about equal.
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My FN-49 is an Egyptian contract rifle for the then Royal Government and is chambered in the 7.92x57mm IS cartridge. The UK used the 7.92x57mm in the Besa Machine Gun. It was a licensed copy of the Czech ZB-53... the UK's Bren Machine Gun is a licensed copy of the ZB vz. 26 Machine Gun. They were able to convert the vz. 26 into .303 British when they originally adopted it. The Uk called the 7.92x57mm "Cartridge, SA, 7.92"".

Although Britain's armed forces used the .303 British for rifles and machine guns, the ZB-53 had been designed for the German 7.92 x 57mm Mauser round - referred to by the British as the 7.92mm. Although it had been intended for the British to move from rimmed to rimless ammunition generally, with war imminent wholesale change was not possible. It was considered by BSA and the Ministry of Supply that the industrial, technical, and logistical handicap of converting the design to the 303 round was more onerous than retaining the original calibre, especially given that the chain of supply for the Royal Armoured Corps was already separate from the other fighting arms of the British Army.

The British was at no time thinking of switching to a different service rifle caliber during WWII. Before WWI the Brits were looking at a going with a Mauser Action rifle (Pattern 1914 Enfield) and chamber it in .276 Enfield. They didn't because of WWI breaking out.

Post war the UK stopped with the idea of switching rifles and caliber because of the budget issue with the Depression and the belief that another war wouldn't happen in a long while.

The FN-49 was chambered in the following calibers.
30-06 Springfield
7.92x57mm IS
7x57mm
7.65x53mm Argentine
7.62x51mm NATO (later converted by Argentina when they adopted the FN FAL)
 
5.56X45mm said:
My FN-49 is an Egyptian contract rifle for the then Royal Government and is chambered in the 7.92x57mm IS cartridge. The UK used the 7.92x57mm in the Besa Machine Gun. It was a licensed copy of the Czech ZB-53... the UK's Bren Machine Gun is a licensed copy of the ZB vz. 26 Machine Gun. They were able to convert the vz. 26 into .303 British when they originally adopted it. The Uk called the 7.92x57mm "Cartridge, SA, 7.92"".

Although Britain's armed forces used the .303 British for rifles and machine guns, the ZB-53 had been designed for the German 7.92 x 57mm Mauser round - referred to by the British as the 7.92mm. Although it had been intended for the British to move from rimmed to rimless ammunition generally, with war imminent wholesale change was not possible. It was considered by BSA and the Ministry of Supply that the industrial, technical, and logistical handicap of converting the design to the 303 round was more onerous than retaining the original calibre, especially given that the chain of supply for the Royal Armoured Corps was already separate from the other fighting arms of the British Army.

The British was at no time thinking of switching to a different service rifle caliber during WWII. Before WWI the Brits were looking at a going with a Mauser Action rifle (Pattern 1914 Enfield) and chamber it in .276 Enfield. They didn't because of WWI breaking out.

Post war the UK stopped with the idea of switching rifles and caliber because of the budget issue with the Depression and the belief that another war wouldn't happen in a long while.
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Was aware of the .276 intended switch, but hadn't heard of British MGs in 8MM/7.92 until I read the FN-49 article years ago. Guess if the British had no intention of adopting the design it wouldn't matter what round the Belgians were designing it for, speculation by the author perhaps.
 
George said:
Was aware of the .276 intended switch, but hadn't heard of British MGs in 8MM/7.92 until I read the FN-49 article years ago. Guess if the British had no intention of adopting the design it wouldn't matter what round the Belgians were designing it for, speculation by the author perhaps.
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Well with the Besa the Brits stayed with 7.92x57mm because the Besa was only used in their tanks. Their armored corps had their own supply line so it wasn't causing an issue with the regular foot soldiers. As for the Bren.... it was a modeified design of the Czech vz. 26 machine gun. The vz. 26 was sold to the Nationalist Chinese, Germany took them over when they overran Czechoslovakia, and Romania also used the MG after WWII.

Romanian_Patriotic_Guards_Training_1.jpg


Romanian Patriotic Guard after WWII with a Vz. 30 (slightly updated Vz. 26).

CSR_soldiers_ZB_vz_26.PNG


Czechoslovakian Soldiers with a Vz. 26 and the Czech produced BRNO Vz. 24 Mauser.

800px-NRA_machinegunners.jpg


Vz. 26 with Chinese Nationalist Soldiers.
 
5.56X45mm said:
I'm going to kinda go and agree to a certain limit....

MG3 chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO with M60 links FTMFW!

:biggun:
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Even in today's world, there's a place for a BREN with its magazines.

Given a choice of any LMG I wanted I'd go for a the GPMG the British version of the FN MAG 58 first, then the BREN second. I knew both guns like the back of my hand and know their little quirks.

I have no doubt the MG3 is a good gun, but I prefer to stick with what I know.
 
BritinAfrica said:
Even in today's world, there's a place for a BREN with its magazines.

Given a choice of any LMG I wanted I'd go for a the GPMG the British version of the FN MAG 58 first, then the BREN second. I knew both guns like the back of my hand and know their little quirks.

I have no doubt the MG3 is a good gun, but I prefer to stick with what I know.
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The MG3 is 23.15lbs and the FN MAG 58 is 25.99lbs. Also the MG3 is simply an updated MG42.... one of the best production GPMG in the world. Easy, cheap, and if you looked up the word reliable. It'd have a picture of a MG3. I've lugged a M240B and G before... heavy SOB. It works well and is from a John Browning design. But the MG3 just wins.
 
5.56X45mm said:
The MG3 is 23.15lbs and the FN MAG 58 is 25.99lbs. Also the MG3 is simply an updated MG42.... one of the best production GPMG in the world. Easy, cheap, and if you looked up the word reliable. It'd have a picture of a MG3. I've lugged a M240B and G before... heavy SOB. It works well and is from a John Browning design. But the MG3 just wins.
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I lugged a GPMG around for 5 years, and loved the old girl. The number of stoppages I had with my gun I could count on one hand and still have fingers left over. Yes it is a heavy bastard to lug around but it was just what I was use to. I lugged her around on assault course's across my back in full webbing and battle bowler over 12 foot walls, cargo nets and rope swings, route marches, run down practices on the range and numerous exercises. I'd still go for my old GPMG every time, because I knew if I needed her for real, she'd work every time.
 
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