BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I dont know if this has been asked before. However, here goes:-
Where did the term "Double Cross" come from and why?
Where did the term "Double Cross" come from and why?
WWII Quiz
perseus
Active member
The Double Cross System or XX System, was a World War II anti-espionage and deception operation of the British military intelligence arm, MI5. Nazi agents in Britain were captured and used by the British to broadcast mainly disinformation to their Nazi controllers. It is unlikely that the term originated from this since it did exist in the 19th century
BritinAfrica. It is normal to deal with one question at a time unless you think mine is too absurd ! Sorry if it is too difficult, I just thought it may be more fun to think for a change rather than Googling/wiki the answer directly which is what I just did with yours.
I will give another clue if you like.
BritinAfrica. It is normal to deal with one question at a time unless you think mine is too absurd ! Sorry if it is too difficult, I just thought it may be more fun to think for a change rather than Googling/wiki the answer directly which is what I just did with yours.
I will give another clue if you like.
Mark Conley
Active member
That was a good question about the ship. It makes sense when you realize the whole ship didnt sink...just a part of it.
The ship is The USS Murphy. a united states destroyer, DD 603. She was rammed by a tanker. the ship split in two...but only the bow sank. The stern was towed back to port, where a new bow was made, fitted, and she went on with her life.
She was decomissioned in 1946. She was sold for scrap as related by persus.
Good question indeed. Makes you think. A ship that only half sunk. :bang:
The ship is The USS Murphy. a united states destroyer, DD 603. She was rammed by a tanker. the ship split in two...but only the bow sank. The stern was towed back to port, where a new bow was made, fitted, and she went on with her life.
She was decomissioned in 1946. She was sold for scrap as related by persus.
Good question indeed. Makes you think. A ship that only half sunk. :bang:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I tend to agree it was an interesting question, as far as a ship only half sinking goes though isn't there a picture of one of the British Battle cruisers that had been destroyed during the battle of Jutland with both its bow and stern above water but it had been snapped in half.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Sorry mate I thought it was answered.
A half sunk ship? hmmm. Very good question.
There was a tanker that broke in half not far from here a few years ago, her bow section sank, but her stern went aground. After years of being stuck, the stern section finally lifted off and joined the bow section on the bottom.
The answer you gave to my question was not complete.
Last edited:
perseus
Active member
Well done Mark, thought it would take a bit longer before someone came up with the answer.
Mark Conley
Active member
well thanks perseus. but i cant think of any good questions...please come up with another good one, or maybee....:whip:
anyway, i loved the question. i wont answer the next one...lol.
anyway, i loved the question. i wont answer the next one...lol.
perseus
Active member
Mark, I don't have another question at present, perhaps we can finish off BritinAfrica's question about the Double Cross.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
No, he only answered part of the question.
The remaining part of the question is,
Why was the term "double cross" used?
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Umm I am a little adrift with this question but I will take a shot to get people thinking or at least give them a wrong answer to play with...
The use of the term "double cross" came from the over seeing committee set up by MI5 called the twenty committee which had the Roman numerals XX forming a double cross.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Mark Conley
Active member
Possibly because it dealt with section 20, or as it was noted on the door XX.
Oopps.:type:
Oopps.:type:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Ok this will be a bit disjointed as it is a very easy but I hope interesting question...
1) Name the ship that sunk in the Clyde in early 1943?
2) What contribution it is "believed" one of her crewman played later that year in helping the allied war effort?
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Well that is a sizable part of the second question but what about the first?
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
HMS Dasher?
The man who never was, Major Martin RM
The man who never was, Major Martin RM
Last edited:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Well I guess that is most of the answer I was looking for, here is the abridged version...
==================================================
HMS Dasher Disaster 1943
Lying in 130m (426 feet) of water to the S of Little Cumbrae in the Firth of Clyde, HMS Dasher was lost following what is thought to have been an accidental explosion of aviation fuel on 27th March, 1943. She sank within eight minutes, with the loss of 379 lives, killed on-board, by the burning oil that had spread across the surface of the sea, or from exposure. Only 149 of her crew survived the disaster.
Mystery surrounded the loss for many years, with relatives told little of the fate of their loved ones. This was in part due to the necessary circumspection required in times of war, but recent research has suggested that it may also have been because one of the drowned sailors became 'the man who never was' - a deliberate subterfuge on the part of British intelligence whereby a body was set adrift off the Spanish coast in May 1943, which convinced the Germans to redirect their defences away from the invasion of Sicily. This operation was launched from nearby Greenock.
Dasher had been built as a cargo ship in the USA in 1941 but was quickly converted to an aircraft carrier and commissioned by the Royal Navy in July 1942. She sailed for Britain the following month, arriving off the Royal Naval Air Station at Campbeltown on 24th August. She then took part in the landings in North Africa and convoy duty but, suffering some minor damage, had come to the Clyde for repairs. It was during trials after these repairs were completed that disaster struck.
===================================================
Anyway you are up.
==================================================
HMS Dasher Disaster 1943
Lying in 130m (426 feet) of water to the S of Little Cumbrae in the Firth of Clyde, HMS Dasher was lost following what is thought to have been an accidental explosion of aviation fuel on 27th March, 1943. She sank within eight minutes, with the loss of 379 lives, killed on-board, by the burning oil that had spread across the surface of the sea, or from exposure. Only 149 of her crew survived the disaster.
Mystery surrounded the loss for many years, with relatives told little of the fate of their loved ones. This was in part due to the necessary circumspection required in times of war, but recent research has suggested that it may also have been because one of the drowned sailors became 'the man who never was' - a deliberate subterfuge on the part of British intelligence whereby a body was set adrift off the Spanish coast in May 1943, which convinced the Germans to redirect their defences away from the invasion of Sicily. This operation was launched from nearby Greenock.
Dasher had been built as a cargo ship in the USA in 1941 but was quickly converted to an aircraft carrier and commissioned by the Royal Navy in July 1942. She sailed for Britain the following month, arriving off the Royal Naval Air Station at Campbeltown on 24th August. She then took part in the landings in North Africa and convoy duty but, suffering some minor damage, had come to the Clyde for repairs. It was during trials after these repairs were completed that disaster struck.
===================================================
Anyway you are up.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Some sites and programmes on TV have stated that the identity of the body of Major Martin was unknown, while others state he was a Welsh tramp who died from rat poison.
Nonetheless, its still an amazing story
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A3031949?s_id=11
There is a plain white marble tombstone in a graveyard in the Spanish town of Huelva bearing the name 'William Martin', beneath which rests the body of a man who helped save the lives of thousands and turned the tides of war. A red carnation has been laid on this grave on a regular basis � the grave of a man whose identity, for over half a century, remained a mystery, protected by the committee who oversaw Operation Mincemeat.
Then in 1996, 53 years after Mincemeat, a British town planning officer and amateur historian by the name of Roger Morgan uncovered evidence that Major Martin had actually been a homeless Welsh alcoholic named Glyndwr Michael who had died through ingestion of rat poison (whether it was suicide or accidental poisoning was undetermined) [Morgan had found his name in the Public Record Office in Kew, West London. ] . This was supported by the fact that rat poison commonly contained cyanide which causes pulmonary congestion or chemical pneumonia; in addition, the place of birth Montagu's committee had given Martin was Cardiff in Wales.
Here's a simple one
Who was the youngest sailor to win the Victoria Cross?
On which ship did he win his VC?
During which battle did he win his VC?
At what age did he win his VC?
Nonetheless, its still an amazing story
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A3031949?s_id=11
There is a plain white marble tombstone in a graveyard in the Spanish town of Huelva bearing the name 'William Martin', beneath which rests the body of a man who helped save the lives of thousands and turned the tides of war. A red carnation has been laid on this grave on a regular basis � the grave of a man whose identity, for over half a century, remained a mystery, protected by the committee who oversaw Operation Mincemeat.
Then in 1996, 53 years after Mincemeat, a British town planning officer and amateur historian by the name of Roger Morgan uncovered evidence that Major Martin had actually been a homeless Welsh alcoholic named Glyndwr Michael who had died through ingestion of rat poison (whether it was suicide or accidental poisoning was undetermined) [Morgan had found his name in the Public Record Office in Kew, West London. ] . This was supported by the fact that rat poison commonly contained cyanide which causes pulmonary congestion or chemical pneumonia; in addition, the place of birth Montagu's committee had given Martin was Cardiff in Wales.
Here's a simple one
Who was the youngest sailor to win the Victoria Cross?
On which ship did he win his VC?
During which battle did he win his VC?
At what age did he win his VC?
Last edited:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The biggest problem with the theory that the body was Glyndwr Michael is that he died on January 28 1943 and they knew that they could not keep a body "pristine" for more than 3 months without freezing which would have been a dead give away at the autopsy.
My understanding is that Glyndwr Michael was indeed the first choice in bodies but the sinking of the HMS Dasher (27 March 1943) provided Montagu with a genuinely "drowned" fresh body which is why there was a mad dash up to Scotland by both Montagu and HMS Seraph which whould have been unnecessary as the original body was in London.
There is also further coroborating evidence in that the three personal items listed on the body of Major Martin were identified recently as the three items that were always carried by the HMS Dasher crewman by his surviving sister.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/01/27/1043534001763.html