Well that game could have ended 3-0 for the Swiss easily , was highly amused by that one .. pity it was the same guy that reffed Holland-Spain :evil:
Last edited:
World Cup
Well that game could have ended 3-0 for the Swiss easily , was highly amused by that one .. pity it was the same guy that reffed Holland-Spain :evil:
Rob Henderson
Banned
Oh well, such is football. Gotta love that "human element" FIFA raves on about so much.
Hello Rob Henderson,
do they make use of instant replay - for the AFL? or are it's rules more simple to be judged on the spot via a referee desicion ?
Regards
Kruska
iron cross
Active member
world cup
But they didn't ..pretty shure the Germans would have gotten their behinds kicked playing orange this time..
Spanish got lucky with both ..The swiss beat them well ..have to give them kudos for that !
Okay - that's good, since American Football permitts a strong body contact. It would be good to introduce it in regards to off-side or goal issues - but I fear it will take out the "fun-factor" in regards to fouls, which might even turn against soccer being an entertaining sport at times.
Imagine Holland having to play clean!!
- hallo Henk :smile:Regards
Kruska
Rob Henderson
Banned
No worries, mate.Hello Rob Henderson,
right NFL - my bad sorry - AFL
I agree that replay technology should only be used in certain scenarios, but it DEFINITELY needs to be introduced. Like England's goal against Germany. That was the perfect case where instant replay technology could've been used to determine that it was, in fact, a goal. It just gives the fans more ammunition when they are able to watch a replay at home and see how clearly the officials screwed up, and then FIFA tries to defend their referees.Okay - that's good, since American Football permitts a strong body contact. It would be good to introduce it in regards to off-side or goal issues - but I fear it will take out the "fun-factor" in regards to fouls, which might even turn against soccer being an entertaining sport at times.
Imagine Holland having to play clean!!
Regards
Kruska
Zhaldev, you may wanna check out this running thread we have on American Football vs. Rugby.
http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/rubgy-v-american-football-t64390.html
rattler
Active member
Here the stast as I have them (Marca, AS, El Mundo)
Possesion First half: Spain 59% / Holland 41%
Possesion Second half: Spain 66% / Holland 34%
Possesion Overall: Spain 60.93% /Holland 39.06%
Passes Total/Good/Bad: Holland 445/307/138 Spain 731/568/163
Attack moves: Holland 149 / Spain 165
Offsides: Holland 7 / Spain 5
Shots at goal: Holland 2 / Spain 8
Corners: Holland 6 / Spain 8
Goalie interventions as last man: Holland 4 / Spain 5
Lost balls: Holland 103 / Spain 86
Regained balls after loss: Holland 57 / Spain 69
Fouls comitted: Holland 38 / Spain 19
Yellow Cards: Holland 9 / Spain 5
Red Cards: Holland 1 / Spain 0
I havve the detailed pass statistics also here Spain really shows why they are a well deserved WC winner with their soccer (check the abysmal difference in the mid fielders and wingers! Here is where the Dutch lost...!), here goes 1 by 1 total/good/bad, comparing equal positions (both played 4-2-3-1)
Stekelenburg 47/31/16 Casillas: 23/14/9
Van De Wiel 49/39/10 Ramos 71/59/12
Heitinga (98 minutes) 33/26/7 Pique 55/48/7
Matthiesen 43/31/12 Puyol 62/55/7
Gio (104 minutes) 29/18/11 Capdevilla 75/56/19
Van Bommel 42/27/15 Xavi Alonso (86 minutes) 57/50/7
De Jong 32/28&4 Busquets 84/74/10
Robben 35/16/19 Pedro (59 minutes) 33/30/3
Sneijder 48/37/11 Xavi 120/104/16
Kuyt 25/14/11 Iniesta 72/50/22
Striker passes are not really interesting, nothing special here.
Rattler
Nice statistical analyze ..just wondering what it has to do with football for its more like a bookkeeping :mrgreen: Besides .. im missing the influences of cards given ,and especially the stats of what a red for Puyol might have done to the game after he tackled Robben ..Robben was stupid he didnt lay himself down as the spanish did often ..would have been Red and a penalty ..
The goal also came from of a offside pass ..no stats of that either ..
Ah well ...'wiki' numbers football and the real thing are not comparable IMHO
Trainers strategic decisions and responses are stuff for analyze ..agree on that .
Last edited:
Rob Henderson
Banned
You know, you have a point. I wonder what di Jong's KARATE KICK TO THE CHEST of Xabi Alonso would've done if HE'D been banned from FIFA like he should've been. You wanna talk about blatant fouls? That put Zidane's headbutt to SHAME, man. You're in NO position to talk about fouls that might've been.Nice statistical analyze ..just wondering what it has to do with football for its more like a bookkeeping :mrgreen: Besides .. im missing the influences of cards given ,and especially the stats of what a red for Puyol might have done to the game after he tackled Robben ..Robben was stupid he didnt lay himself down as the spanish did often ..would have been Red and a penalty ..
The goal also came from of a offside pass ..no stats of that either ..
Ah well ...'wiki' numbers football and the real thing are not comparable IMHO
As far as the goal, Iniesta was onside when the ball was kicked, so I'm thinking you may need to re-analyze your knowledge of offsides.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=264123&cc=5901&ver=us
The little video to the right should play the highlights of the game. WATCH THEM.
rattler
Active member
I posted the stats because I someone asked for them.
Indeed nothing offside with the goal of Iniesta (just for the records: Passes cannot be offside, only players can be in offside position), he was well onside of defenders at the moment of Cescs pass (which is the moment that counts for offside). About two metres, as you can see in this vid where they inserted the relevant offside line for people with not such clear eyesight (actually, even as late as the moment of the actual shoot still Van der Vaart was between Iniesta and the goal and tried to block the ball):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9a3-jHsRHg
As for asking for Red for Puyol, on what rule would you base that? Even yellow is only justified under the aspect of keeping order as it was a revenge for Van Bommels min 17 foul versus Capdevilla that resulted in injury where (no ball, entry from rear) red indeed would have been a possibility. Not mentioning De Jong...
But I have realized already that the Dutch have a very selective perception of this special match and it´s events... At least as German I can claim a bit more of neutrality here...
Rattler
Last edited:
Iniesta was good , but look whats happening before iniesta gets the ball.. no flags going up and a ref way too far off to see ...
De Jong ..sigh . maybe theres a hollywood carreer waiting for him , he'd do good in a Chuck Norris flic lol
I suggest you look at a rerun whats happenin between Puyol who had already yellow and Robben .. if you dont see it you then it has no sense to talk about rules in football at all It happened on the border of the 16m , if he dropped himself it would have been a penalty ..
If you look at first yellow Heitinga got you see it was Spanish comedia also , he didnt touch him . We lost .. but not because the Spanish were so good ..much more because of totally wrong chosen tactics going on 'safe ' by trainer . At home this rough game wasnt appreciated also , you'dd propably heard Johan Cruyff speak about that too.
Plenty of people have seriously analyzed it over here , not one being positive about the refs btw and many having serious doubts about van Marwijks views .Louis van Gaal maybe the most direct in his comments bout Webb .
Has nothing to do with nationalism ,but has a lot to do with Blatter and his way of running the FIFA wich he considers to be more important than religion .Time for the Dino's to move on in there .
Games of this importance need the best refs one can get , not Webb or that Saudi ref giving almost everyone a yellow on the field too . Yes.. it was one of the worst games in the whole tournament ..
De Jong ..sigh . maybe theres a hollywood carreer waiting for him , he'd do good in a Chuck Norris flic lol
I suggest you look at a rerun whats happenin between Puyol who had already yellow and Robben .. if you dont see it you then it has no sense to talk about rules in football at all
It happened on the border of the 16m , if he dropped himself it would have been a penalty ..If you look at first yellow Heitinga got you see it was Spanish comedia also , he didnt touch him . We lost .. but not because the Spanish were so good ..much more because of totally wrong chosen tactics going on 'safe ' by trainer . At home this rough game wasnt appreciated also , you'dd propably heard Johan Cruyff speak about that too.
Plenty of people have seriously analyzed it over here , not one being positive about the refs btw and many having serious doubts about van Marwijks views .Louis van Gaal maybe the most direct in his comments bout Webb .
Has nothing to do with nationalism ,but has a lot to do with Blatter and his way of running the FIFA wich he considers to be more important than religion .Time for the Dino's to move on in there .
Games of this importance need the best refs one can get , not Webb or that Saudi ref giving almost everyone a yellow on the field too . Yes.. it was one of the worst games in the whole tournament ..
Last edited:
rattler
Active member
Here I agree fully:
The insistance of FiFa to chose referees from all nations on a percentage basis (and on top of it mixing teams together that often do not even speak the same language) instead of selecting the best through a point system over 4 years and using (as in every league) teams of refs that work together always leads to such disastrous stuff as that we have seen in this WC (again).
This insistance can only be undersxtood by the political basis that Blatter needs and that comes from the delegates of the small and third world states in Africa.
A shame for soccer, but as long as the whole chain works down to the national associations to block anything to change the massive corruption (you might want to google the exact numbers on how many hundreds of millions the African despots make from FIFA, or the vast sums of money handed to them from providers that simnply vanish, not to mention the personal allegations against the top Blatter supporters and himself) this wont change.
Rattler
The insistance of FiFa to chose referees from all nations on a percentage basis (and on top of it mixing teams together that often do not even speak the same language) instead of selecting the best through a point system over 4 years and using (as in every league) teams of refs that work together always leads to such disastrous stuff as that we have seen in this WC (again).
This insistance can only be undersxtood by the political basis that Blatter needs and that comes from the delegates of the small and third world states in Africa.
A shame for soccer, but as long as the whole chain works down to the national associations to block anything to change the massive corruption (you might want to google the exact numbers on how many hundreds of millions the African despots make from FIFA, or the vast sums of money handed to them from providers that simnply vanish, not to mention the personal allegations against the top Blatter supporters and himself) this wont change.
Rattler
Rob Henderson
Banned
I'm not sure where you're talking about. Could you give us a minute to look for so we know what exactly you're referring to? I see no illegal play leading up to the goal.
Definitely.
Are you talking about the one where Puyol slides in from behind and slightly to the side? That wasn't in the box.I suggest you look at a rerun whats happenin between Puyol who had already yellow and Robben .. if you dont see it you then it has no sense to talk about rules in football at all
By the way, there were several Dutch actors too. It wasn't JUST the Spanish. Sure, the Spanish had some divers, even one or two where it was purely to draw a free kick and there was no contact. But, as you can plainly see in the video from ESPN I posted, the Dutch had some flopping as well. Sure, the referees might've missed one or two, but there was a reason 14 yellows were issued in that game.
On this, we can agree. I think everyone can agree on this. The officiating was horrible throughout the World Cup. The Dutch were not the only team to get screwed.
No doubt there were acts on our team ..van Bommel a lucky one too .
If you look at the Spanish guy receiving the pass before the ball even got to Iniesta you ll see he was standing offside , not Iniesta himself scoring ..
All spilled milk now ..but all three refs were sleeping there
Robben was crazy he tried to score anyway .. puyol grabbed him at the edge of the 16m , when Robben would let himself fall he would be be well inside the 16m area webb was sofar off he could never have seen that , doubt if he gave free kick ouside he got away with that in full stadium . He didnt even look at the side refs doing the whole thing away that it was just Casilias coming out in the right way . (wich he did , but that wasnt what happened there He should have Puyol red there and then for he already had a yellow ..not a doubt about it.
Acting unfortunately became an important issue in todays footy, in all teams .
No the dutch were pretty lucky with most refs ..a country like Ivory coast got a rougher trade there ..double hands and a goal by luis fabiano and a ref joking about 'shoulder'to fabiano , no red ..end of their team in that game .. or the portuguese against Brazil .. no red in the beginning already , would have meant a win for the portuguese idd say.(boring game too )
Plenty of examples when you go look into it .
The english 'goal' from garrard ..
Now people talk about the possibility some games were bought , wich i doubt btw .
What i think is crazy is that there were big screens in all stadiums doing instant replays for all there to see , a second after things happened .. Wonder how Blatter will justify his decision FIFA forbids refs to use those images ..
If you look at the Spanish guy receiving the pass before the ball even got to Iniesta you ll see he was standing offside , not Iniesta himself scoring ..
All spilled milk now ..but all three refs were sleeping there
Robben was crazy he tried to score anyway .. puyol grabbed him at the edge of the 16m , when Robben would let himself fall he would be be well inside the 16m area webb was sofar off he could never have seen that , doubt if he gave free kick ouside he got away with that in full stadium . He didnt even look at the side refs doing the whole thing away that it was just Casilias coming out in the right way . (wich he did , but that wasnt what happened there
He should have Puyol red there and then for he already had a yellow ..not a doubt about it. Acting unfortunately became an important issue in todays footy, in all teams .
No the dutch were pretty lucky with most refs ..a country like Ivory coast got a rougher trade there ..double hands and a goal by luis fabiano and a ref joking about 'shoulder'to fabiano , no red ..end of their team in that game .. or the portuguese against Brazil .. no red in the beginning already , would have meant a win for the portuguese idd say.(boring game too )
Plenty of examples when you go look into it .
The english 'goal' from garrard ..
Now people talk about the possibility some games were bought , wich i doubt btw .
What i think is crazy is that there were big screens in all stadiums doing instant replays for all there to see , a second after things happened .. Wonder how Blatter will justify his decision FIFA forbids refs to use those images ..
Last edited:
Rob Henderson
Banned
Well, I suppose it might be a different view from a Dutch television, but from what I saw, he was dead even.
- I was soooo sure they could make it this time.
rattler
Active member
-snip-
If you look at the Spanish guy receiving the pass before the ball even got to Iniesta you ll see he was standing offside , not Iniesta himself scoring ..
All spilled milk now ..but all three refs were sleeping there
OK, it looks you have to double check your understanding of the offside law again, you are following a misconception here (and as we always tell the girls :jump:, to explain "offside" well *is* difficult, still it is the one most important rule besides of the "advantage" rule that makes soccer interesting and different). As many here know I have reffed in lower leagues, so even if this was not by FIFA standards (national federations and UEFA differ slightly in details over the whole rule book) I still claim some authority when I say: Everything leading to the goal after the kick off from the Spanish goal (which was a wrong decision to give) was legal (highlighting by me):
None of this was the case, and as the law says, being offside is by itself not an offense, also the ball has to be touched or played (and that is the moment of decision, *NOT* - as you seem to assume - the moment the player receives the ball).
Now that we know what foul you are talking about (the last entry of Robben towards the Spanish goal, I had assumed the one in min 19 where Puyol got yellow), I again suggest you check your rules, for various reasons, you are mixing a few things here which have to be - in a split second - treated completely differently by the ref:
- It is true, that it looked like Puyol tried a desperate grab for Robben once he made it past him, and before his saltos. The ref is free to decide whether this was an intent to grab the player or an intent to slow him in body contact (which would not be surprising if you follow the trajectory of those two saltos/screws Puyol did in the air), the refs were far away as the pass to robben came so surprising and reversed game direction.
- It is also true that Robben was not affected, so this would automatically grant "advantage" (the rule that favors to keep game flow if an offense has no immidiate effecct), i.e. the ref would be wrong to stop the game (but he could still later sanction the offender after end of the game element, e.g. award a card). Personally, I prefer players that do NOT dive when not affected, trainers that teach differently we always had an eye on (and I am sure Webb had seen the Dutch dives vs. Brazil) and awareded yellow for diving instead of free kick or penalty (Robben had one already, which would have sent him off pitch! That he did not take this risk was well done, IMHO).
- The action itself took place outside the box, so even if Robben had been affected and fallen into the box this would not have meant penalty but free kick from where the action took place (outside).
- Puyol was not last man (his companion was same height for the purpose of such decisions), so red was out of the question
- Yellow would only have been ok if indeed the player had tried to grab, something that can be discussed if you look at the action from a distance and not in slow motion, the thing happened so fast that the refs had no time to close in enough.
In total, not a grave error, it was San Iker and Robbens ineptitud in the one-on-one (not critizising here, this happens) what saved Spain there, and not the ref.
The relevant vid from distance, check for the refs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oma9jAyIuSA
Rattler
Last edited:
Hello rattler,
unfortunatley - they were quite poor on Chinese TV in regards to replays.
But if memory serves me right from what my eye's believe to have seen, a Spanish player (Fabregas?) was clearly standing already in off side (about 2 m) when the ball was passed to him and when he took the ball and passed it back (away from the Dutch goal) - upon which the ball was shot into the goal from the Spanish player Iniesta, that had received that kicked back ball - No???.
Regards
Kruska
unfortunatley - they were quite poor on Chinese TV in regards to replays.
But if memory serves me right from what my eye's believe to have seen, a Spanish player (Fabregas?) was clearly standing already in off side (about 2 m) when the ball was passed to him and when he took the ball and passed it back (away from the Dutch goal) - upon which the ball was shot into the goal from the Spanish player Iniesta, that had received that kicked back ball - No???.
Regards
Kruska
Last edited: