Why did Germany lose WW2?

Even when he had stepped up his submarine production,the U Boats never had a chance to starve Britain .The losses by the U Boats always were marginal .

Agreed, I think people have by and large been taken in by the hype of the U-Boat menace and the German supply problems to North Africa, I have no doubt that there were weeks or months where the U-Boats sunk vast tonnages perhaps even enough to create shortages in Britain and at times critical supplies to North Africa were sunk as well but on the whole during the course of the war well over 99% of merchantmen reached their destination safely and for the Axis in North Africa close to 86% of merchantmen reached their destination.
 
On
World naval ships com,there is a list (with names) of all British merchant navy ships lost in WWII,and,after a lot of calculations,I have the following results:

1939:51 ships were lost by U boats (259000 GRT)and 46 by other causes (164000 GRT)

1940:by U Boats : 215 ships,by other causes:312 ships

For 1939/1940,this was 266 ships lost by U Boats (some 1 million GRT),this sounds big,but,OTOH,Britain gained a lot of GRT from Canada,from Norway,from Holland,and, I would not be surprised if on 31 december 1940,Britain had more GRT available than on 1 september 1939.
One should also not forget that during these 16 months,the British yards were building a lot of ships .
 
I found these European very like propagander about " their civil wars", I think these white guys almost made hundreds of war movies about Hilter! From 1945-2013.

awesome, why?
 
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On
World naval ships com,there is a list (with names) of all British merchant navy ships lost in WWII,and,after a lot of calculations,I have the following results:

1939:51 ships were lost by U boats (259000 GRT)and 46 by other causes (164000 GRT)

1940:by U Boats : 215 ships,by other causes:312 ships

For 1939/1940,this was 266 ships lost by U Boats (some 1 million GRT),this sounds big,but,OTOH,Britain gained a lot of GRT from Canada,from Norway,from Holland,and, I would not be surprised if on 31 december 1940,Britain had more GRT available than on 1 september 1939.
One should also not forget that during these 16 months,the British yards were building a lot of ships .

I was under the impression that the Norwegian Merchant fleet alone contributed 2 million GRT to the allied cause.

However before down playing the convoy wars I think it worth remembering that roughly 110,000 sailors, submariners and merchant seamen died during the battle of the Atlantic which is not a figure that should be ignored.
 
Before you get carried away with the idea of Panzer Army Afrika goose stepping its way from Tunisia to Cairo and beyond can I suggest that you look at the logistics of what you are proposing.

Warsaw to Moscow - 1149km
Tunis to Cairo - 2090km

The problem in North Africa was not getting supplies to Tunisia or Libya but getting those supplies from Tunis or Tripoli to a front that was almost twice the distance the entire Russian campaign was going to require.

With this in mind German problems would have only been worse if they had reinforced the Afrika Korps to the size it needed to be to complete the task.
W/O Russia draining resources they would have had the air power to take out Malta, a bone in the throat of the supply system in the real world, & have the equipment to overpower the land forces. Almost got to Alexandria the way it was.
 
W/O Russia draining resources they would have had the air power to take out Malta, a bone in the throat of the supply system in the real world, & have the equipment to overpower the land forces. Almost got to Alexandria the way it was.

This is true but the problem still remains that German supply lines were getting longer and longer meanwhile the allies were falling back toward India and South Africa and much shorter supply lines.

The problem for the Germans is that unlike France where the channel provided a secure border North Africa was always going to leave them with land linked, clear Libya and you have Egypt, clear Egypt and you have Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Sudan all in Allied hands, clear those and you have yet more Allied countries.

North Africa was a folly and little else.
 
W/O Russia draining resources they would have had the air power to take out Malta, a bone in the throat of the supply system in the real world, & have the equipment to overpower the land forces. Almost got to Alexandria the way it was.

The German's planned an invasion of Malta in 42. They were going to use a large batch of captured Russian KV2 tanks for the job. The reason they didn't use them was they never did invade Malta. The Soviet Union was surely draining their resources.
 
This is true but the problem still remains that German supply lines were getting longer and longer meanwhile the allies were falling back toward India and South Africa and much shorter supply lines.

The problem for the Germans is that unlike France where the channel provided a secure border North Africa was always going to leave them with land linked, clear Libya and you have Egypt, clear Egypt and you have Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Sudan all in Allied hands, clear those and you have yet more Allied countries.

North Africa was a folly and little else.

I agree with George that Malta could have been taken out without worrying about the Russians. Monty, you keep mentioning more allied lands would keep the Afrika Korps busy. But how busy would they have been thwarting attacks from Sudan, Kenya, Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. With enough divisions in tow, the Germans would surely have taken out the above countries. Well, except Kenya and maybe Saudi Arabia. But there wasn't enough there for them to worry about.
India which could raise enough armies to check German ambitions would be worrying more about Japanese ambitions. Its true German logistics needed improvement. But if they could make the Mediterranean sea an Axis lake logistics would improve. Gibraltar would need to be taken, but the Germans would have had the resources and means.
 
I agree with George that Malta could have been taken out without worrying about the Russians. Monty, you keep mentioning more allied lands would keep the Afrika Korps busy. But how busy would they have been thwarting attacks from Sudan, Kenya, Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. With enough divisions in tow, the Germans would surely have taken out the above countries. Well, except Kenya and maybe Saudi Arabia. But there wasn't enough there for them to worry about.
India which could raise enough armies to check German ambitions would be worrying more about Japanese ambitions. Its true German logistics needed improvement. But if they could make the Mediterranean sea an Axis lake logistics would improve. Gibraltar would need to be taken, but the Germans would have had the resources and means.

I am not sure you have thought through your argument.
1) So what if Malta was taken the supplies sunk while Malta was in British hands were not causing the Germans supply problems in North Africa.

2) The front line supply issues that the Afrika Korps were experiencing was due to the difficulty in getting supplies from the ports to the front line this is why the control of Tobruk was vital to Rommel's efforts as it halved the distance he had to ship materials.

3) Increasing the German troop levels in North Africa would not have cause supply shortage in Tripoli or Tunis but it would have meant they would have had to ship more supplies by land to the front lines and given that they could not efficiently ship enough supplies to maintain the 4 1/2 divisions of Panzer Army Afrika at the 2nd Battle of El Alamein I can't imagine the mess things would have been with 6 or 8 divisions to supply.

Once again the war in North Africa was not one of manpower but one of logistics, more troops equals more problems for Rommel and von Arnim not less.
 
I am not sure you have thought through your argument.
1) So what if Malta was taken the supplies sunk while Malta was in British hands were not causing the Germans supply problems in North Africa.

2) The front line supply issues that the Afrika Korps were experiencing was due to the difficulty in getting supplies from the ports to the front line this is why the control of Tobruk was vital to Rommel's efforts as it halved the distance he had to ship materials.

3) Increasing the German troop levels in North Africa would not have cause supply shortage in Tripoli or Tunis but it would have meant they would have had to ship more supplies by land to the front lines and given that they could not efficiently ship enough supplies to maintain the 4 1/2 divisions of Panzer Army Afrika at the 2nd Battle of El Alamein I can't imagine the mess things would have been with 6 or 8 divisions to supply.

Once again the war in North Africa was not one of manpower but one of logistics, more troops equals more problems for Rommel and von Arnim not less.


I'm a stubborn SOB, but I bow to your wisdom.
 
Let us work under the assumption the Allies couldn't read the German codes. Bletchley park has no great significance. How much longer would the war last. And could the Axis actually win it?
 
Let us work under the assumption the Allies couldn't read the German codes. Bletchley park has no great significance. How much longer would the war last. And could the Axis actually win it?

At a guess I would say "maybe" a year but I suspect less than that as I am a believer that the war was won in the east not the west and the war in the east was primarily one of numbers not intelligence.

As to whether the Axis could have won the war had the allies not had ULTRA no I don't think they could have at best I believe all the Axis could have done in the west was force a stalemate but there was little they could have done to stop the Russians after 1943.
 
There is no proven relation between Ultra and losses of the merchant fleet:it is not so that no Ultra would mean more GRT sunk .
 
Is becuase German attack many countries ,then many countries union together Fcuk the German in 1941-1945? So they lose .

Sorry ,maybe I use a wrong words.
 
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From an angle of Chinese,I found these European very like propagander about " their civil wars", I think these white guys almost made hundreds of war movies about Hilter German against other European countries! From 1945-2013. I am boring watch these war movie, it is waste my time.

Sure ,these white in the moive always play their people as victims under Nazi German. But they forgot their dirty jobs on other race rest the planet. Many white is a good actor by natural.


As I know, about sixty-millions American are the descendant of German, So the the US fight against Geriman in world war 2. was German killed German?
I can't understand what's the point, these white( European) propagate about their civil war! Brag about a Amiercan soldier very bravery kill a German soldier in the war movie?
What's purpose of these white guys shoot many war movies? Want to commemorate something?

The white ,could you stop propagate your "civil war" to the Earth people?
 
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- Failure to finish off Britain at Dunkirk

Very untrue, while this was a military failure it hardly did cost the germans the war and they secured massive british equipment and supplies, too. Actually there are many reasions why Hitler did not finish the Britains off in Dunkirk.

- German tank blitzkrieg was faster than the infantery and he wanted to dispatch the britains in full force with minimal losses.

- Hitler was negoating for peace to close the westfront with GB and thus took it easy on them

- Hitler had quite some loyal followers in GB, he even had an affair with british girl and nazi follower Unity Mitford. Hence, he might be a bit influenced anyways, whenever it comes to GB.

- More importantly British pro nazi King Edward VIII had abdicated the british throne few years before the war, there was a speculation that Edward VIII would have returned as a king to GB. Again no reasion to hurt GB and waste resources on them.

- Hitlers ideology, his holocaust and war was directed against the jews and people in the east it can't be stressed enough so i repeat it once again. EAST. Also called: Lebensraum im Osten. The whole Agenda of Hitlers war was focused on this 1st goal. The 2nd goal was the holocaust. GB and US only played minor roles in Hitlers plan. Actually the only real west target was France, cause they needed a revenge victory for those 1st ww events the Armistice of Compiègne.France declared war, too. All the Wehrmacht forces were located in the east, Poland. I bet Hitler and his Panzergenerals would have prefered to continue marching further deep into the east, if they could, but not with a combined british/french army on their throat in the west.

- another reasion to spare dunkirk GB forces, was, that hitler didn't want his generals to become too popular in the victories without him in charge. So the strict Dunkirk order to not finish the GB off, was a punishment for them.




- Failure to have any real plan to invade Britain and clean up the west before attacking Russia thus ensuring a 2 front war.

This is very true actually. This was the true beginning of the end of Hitler's war. While it was mentioned GB had hardly the resources to engange the Wehrmacht on the ground it had the power to airbomb and sabotage(commandos) the most important supply lines and german factories in the western part of the 3rd reich, skandinavia and greece.

Actually i will go so far and say its not GB that was the problem for Nazi Germany, it was Churchill, and Churchill alone. Without him GB would have surrendered and U.S. would have probably never went to war with the germans. U.S. citizens weren't pro war with europe and had their right wings etablished too weren't pro Sovjets and were rather pro nazi.
Like everywhere on the world, hitler was a very popular and charismatic dictator before the war started during the 30ies. Dictatorship was a modern way to rule a country in this time period, it wasn't quite the stigmata back then. The holocaust and detailed war crimes become well known a bit later to everyone at this time.

The other main problem was Hitler indeed did understimate the Churchill-threat and gave it wrongly a low priority. Maybe he had bad advisors, too. That guy had a lot of political influence that was way more dangerous than just GB's military threat at that time.

- Simply under-estimating the Russians at Stalingrad and Kursk.

Understemating Stalin alltogether would be the correct answer. Stalingrad and Kursks are just battlefields, they weren't really the source of the reasion why german was defeated. Germany was defeated, cause Stalin was able to rally his country and got tons of supplies from the allies, most importantly thousands of U.S.trucks to transport his stuff. Those red army soldiers were previously ill equipped and lost allmost all battles prior to moscow and stalingrad. But the holocaust and some other cruel things(scorched earth later on) made the russian population upset and fight for stalin and the motherland propaganda. Previously he was a very unpopular Dictator who was responsible for 10 million deaths in his own country - they starved to death cause of his radical plans of industrialization - the super power status did came with a price. However blindfolded Hitler destroyed his easy victory flow by mass murdering and plundering russian people. They had quite some jews there too in the east.

As for Stalingrad, german military did not see right through operation uranus, surrounding the wehrmacht in stalingrad.

Göring also lied to hitler he could support the stalingrad troops with his airforce.

So all he did was understimating Stalin, like he understimated Churchill. However, Stalin was unpopular in his country and cause millions of deaths by starving. In additoin the red army was very weak and lost a war against a small country - Finnland.

From the right point of view, before the invasion of the USSR, its easy to underestimating Stalin and the red army. Or extra hard russian early winter.

We weren't fortune tellers, either and just know the outcomes now, the odds were in favor of germany, but chance, diplomacy and some odd tactical decisions took away that opportunity. Like operation seelöwe wasn't executed to full victory over GB before declaring war on USSR. Like not bombing the RAF to death but do the capitol terror bombin on london.

Besides, the holocaust could have cost the germans the war too, russian popultion thought Hitler is their Savior first, and then he killed them and plundered the lands. That gave Stalin easily enough manpower to his exhausted red army. The red army was almost completely destroyed when the wehrmacht reached moscow. It recovered all too well.

- Some have even suggested that the whole 1942 offensive was misguided and they should have gone straight to Moscow (This assumes Russia would have surrendered with the fall of Moscow).

Could have worked, but only if the germans would have catched Stalin in Moscow, and actually Stalin was there and stayed even there at the battle of Moscow....chances are good they would capture him if they would have surrounded the city with ground forces while having air supremacy and against the sovjets they had their air supremacy as the red army was focusing more on heavy ground forces tanks and artillery.

Moscow wasn't nearly as important as Stalin, though. No matter how important it did become after Napoleons invasion. Siberia, another familiar home of Stalin, for example, is very big and a harsh land. Sovjets won't surrender before their dictator and military is wiped out completely. Capitols are important, but can be recaptured, too. See Paris. Just France didn't quite have the room and resources as them Sovjets had and it didn't have a Dictatorship that will pay any price to win.

- They were simply out numbered, out gunned and out classed once both Russia and the USA were at full war footing.

It wasn't that simple at all. It wasn't a war in the gulf of a superpower against a tiny nation with a madman, this was a world war - and there everything is possible! The whole war against nazi germany was the way to get to this diplomatic, military and economic unique position to hurt and crush germany. It was especially Churchills leading effort to keep the resistence against Germany up early on and get US into supporting his cause.

Just a few different outcomes and Nazi germany would be at sovjets place instead, as a new and more dangerous superpower. Would Hitler hit that red shiny button? You guess. Just give those nazi rocket scientiest more resources and time...yeah. Wonder how long it would take to have the first ICBM's. You know they worked for the U.S. after the war and personal like Werner von Braun were quite of importance, U.S. reached during the late 60ies the moon with his efforts.

- Countless others of which my personal favourite is that the Italians cost them the war as everywhere the Italians fought the Germans met with disaster.

Well, thats true. Too true. The fine Wehrmacht soldiers and elite SS troops saved Italians several times. Even the doomed italien Dictator Mussolini was freed of his jail by a german special operation. Italy is a beautiful country but the military is useless and their government. My grandfather fought in ww1 on austria side against Italy - that betrayed my country and gained nothing by it. So the italians were hated alot at this time. After those events he married an italian girl though.:-P

However, recently I have been reading a few books that indicate that the greatest failure was that of supply, failure to place the economy on a full war footing until it was too late, not planning for the gauge change between German and Russian rail lines, the use of countless variants of weapons etc.

Sure easily Japan and Germany both lost the economic war.

But the greatest failure wasn't keeping up the supply and economy that could have changed easily depending on the war outcomes, like, if ther wouldn't be a west front when the east front opened up. GB ruined a lot of german supplies with their commandos and bombers, kinda backstabbing while the main german force was far away in the east.

I say the main reasion was probably the lack of diplomacy, the wrong ideology of faschism, racist and holocaust murder - look the russians people were happy when hitler declared war on them they thought he was a savior to stalin.......but he was cruel.

Also, he totally underestimated Churchill and Stalin.
 
From an angle of Chinese,I found these European very like propagander about " their civil wars", I think these white guys almost made hundreds of war movies about Hilter German against other European countries! From 1945-2013. I am boring watch these war movie, it is waste my time.

Sure ,these white in the moive always play their people as victims under Nazi German. But they forgot their dirty jobs on other race rest the planet. Many white is a good actor by natural.


As I know, about sixty-millions American are the descendant of German, So the the US fight against Geriman in world war 2. was German killed German?
I can't understand what's the point, these white( European) propagate about their civil war! Brag about a Amiercan soldier very bravery kill a German soldier in the war movie?
What's purpose of these white guys shoot many war movies? Want to commemorate something?

The white ,could you stop propagate your "civil war" to the Earth people?

one word: Churchill.

He convinced every western nation he could to go on war with the germans, most importantly U.S.

Churchill and Roosevelt his friend, made it happen. Without these 2, that war seems unlikely.

As far as German, Hitler, is concerned, he only wanted war in the east. But i guess, GB Churchill was both an imperialist and humanist, he thought he must battle this evil and save his beloved british empire. However, the british empire did fall apart after WW2, while germany became a rich country(at least western part).

so the question really is, who really lost that war? I'd say GB and USSR lost. GB losing a lot of its power after that war and USSR had the the biggest losses of men overall. The clear winner was the U.S. it became of the military rank16 to military rank1 most powerful army on the world after the 2nd ww, the greatest economic power too and a superpower dominating the rest of the world with just few casualities in that world war, of course the U.S. army got a bloody nose in their first big ground operation in Africa by german elite soldiers, right before operation overlord, even though they were well geared, just lacking battlefield expierence, but thats a different story.
 
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The troop size against Soviet was to small. Maybe 5 million men was better but whole 6-7 million men was all soldiers in nazi regim of Germany.

Have I right now?

Doesn't matter a tiny bit. Supply and tactics do matter however. The red army was almost completely destroyed by the germans but they recovered greatly with the help of U.S. that did send them MASSIVE supplies and equipment.

What do you do with millions of men if they have no weapons and no transports, food and so on? they are useless same counts for a lack of leadership. Misguided troops are totally useless. Look at ww1 and russia german war. on the east. This time all armies the russians send were destroyed by germans.

But in wwII the sovjets learned the tactics of the germans, right before that war, stalin executed several expierenced red army commanders, though. And his reasion was not racist. Just paranoia.

We should not pretend as if the sovjets in ww2 were allready an established superpower, they weren't. They became a superpower during these events exactly like U.S. did. But they really payed a high price with all that scorched earth and millions of lifes lost.
 
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