The world only protests when Israel Strikes

[SHERMAN]

But it only exists because someone else took the land from its owners and gave it away, when it was not theirs to give.

The "owners" that "Palestine" was "take" from are the otoman turks. Are you suggesting Israel should be in Turkish hands? Along with Iraq, Syria,. Lebanon, Saudi, and all the Amerites? Because all those countries were given by the British or French to people whjo had no national identity before the 1930s. Lebanon was a part of the Syrian province. Iraq consisted of 3 diffrent provinces, that wer made of diffrent poulations(Suni, Shiite and Kurds). Jordan and Iraq were given to the Hassemite family without any historical reason, the hasemites were from what we now call saudi-arabia. Saudi arabia became "Saudi" only because the british decided to give it as a personal country to the Saud family. These are all made up countries, formed by western intrests. The only ones which actually have some "real reason to exist" are Egypt, Israel and maybe Syria.

But at least they were the owners when it was stolen from them and given away. It should have been given to the people who now call themselves the Palestinian people after all it was, and still is "their" land.

Like I already said, these "Palestinians" did not exist as a seperate ethnic or national group. They were simply arabs that lived here. They never had a sepeprate culture, langauge or anything from their Egyptian, Syrian and transjordan relatives.

And I can go back to the land of my ancestors too, but that gives me no right whatsoever to eject the present owners and take over. I'd be locked up and the key would be thrown away if I tried it

Was your entire nation kicked out to beguin with?

I see no real evidence of what you claim. The Canaanites were apparently there prior to the accepted arrival of the Jews, It seems that the old saying is true, "The first casualty of war is the truth"

Well, thank god there are no Cannanites around to add to the mess. Palestinians are not "Cannanites", they are Arabs. They Speak Arabic, Share Arab culture, and have blood ties to arab countries.

All of the above notwithstanding, I have no disagreement with the Jewish people moving back to their historical homeland, but they should have to do it exactly the same as anyone else in the world. They should have been made to apply for visas and only allowed back if they were granted.

Visas from who? The land was ruled by the Turks, who gave us visas. It was thatn ruled by tthe UK, who sometimes did somtimes did not give us visas. It was not at any point up to the Palestinians to give visas because they were never a country, nor did they show any wish to be a seperate nationality before the 1920s. Even today Hammas is not a "National" movement, its a religous movemnent. It has no country-building mythology, its a hate and destruction based organization.

It is not "their" land, they had left it, just as my ancestors left England several hundred years ago. And just like me they have absolutely no claim on their "historic" homeland

Your ancestor were English who migrated. My ancestors were Judeans who were driven away by the Romans. We never asked, or wanted to leave this place. To evidence, Jews never left Israel unless forced to do so by a military force.

The ovious fact that the Palestinians, unlike the Zionists, have no other ideals but the destruction of israel seems to elude you. Hammas is a classic example of an organization that has no other thing in mind but death and destruction. Do they build new roads? Do they create agriculture? Do they have a vision for the land the "love" so much? No. In 60 years Israel has developed more than any arab country around it, though it has less natural resources, land and population. It allows liberty to all its people, unlike all its neigbours. But all that is irrelevent to you, isen?


Your attempts to deligetemise my country are doomed to fail because you dont understand any of the proceses in the middle east in the last 200 years. You dont know or seem to want to know what Zionisem is, what are the diffrent Palestinian national movements are. In short, you have some sort of opinion, to which you copy and paste diffrent ideas and facts as they suit your typical bleeding heart self-hating western theories.

 

[senojekips]

The "owners" that "Palestine" was "take" from are the otoman turks. Are you suggesting Israel should be in Turkish hands? Along with Iraq, Syria,. Lebanon, Saudi, and all the Amerites? Because all those countries were given by the British or French to people whjo had no national identity before the 1930s. Lebanon was a part of the Syrian province. Iraq consisted of 3 diffrent provinces, that wer made of diffrent poulations(Suni, Shiite and Kurds). Jordan and Iraq were given to the Hassemite family without any historical reason, the hasemites were from what we now call saudi-arabia. Saudi arabia became "Saudi" only because the british decided to give it as a personal country to the Saud family. These are all made up countries, formed by western intrests. The only ones which actually have some "real reason to exist" are Egypt, Israel and maybe Syria.

I meant the "Owners of the land" the people who were living there and owned the land. Not the people who owned it before them.

Like I already said, these "Palestinians" did not exist as a seperate ethnic or national group. They were simply arabs that lived here. They never had a sepeprate culture, langauge or anything from their Egyptian, Syrian and transjordan relatives.

So in your reasoning that gives anyone the right to go in and steal their land?

Was your entire nation kicked out to beguin with?

No,... neither were the Jewish people.

Well, thank god there are no Cannanites around to add to the mess. Palestinians are not "Cannanites", they are Arabs. They Speak Arabic, Share Arab culture, and have blood ties to arab countries.

They are probably the same persons that call themselves "Palestinians" now, they never ever left

Visas from who? The land was ruled by the Turks, who gave us visas. It was thatn ruled by tthe UK, who sometimes did somtimes did not give us visas. It was not at any point up to the Palestinians to give visas because they were never a country, nor did they show any wish to be a seperate nationality before the 1920s. Even today Hammas is not a "National" movement, its a religous movemnent. It has no country-building mythology, its a hate and destruction based organization.

Visas from the people who owned the land, the people who had their land stolen by the Turks, Brits and Jews. Had they have not occupied the country the people who now call themselves Palestinians would have been able to issue the visas.

If the country had not been occupied by the Jews, Hamas and other terrorist organisations would never had the need to exist. they couldn't exist because they would have no one to give them credence. You cannot fight if you have no enemy. Now they are as interested in subjugating their own people as the Israelis, they have gone from being a resistance organisation to a "would be if could be" political organisation.

Your ancestor were English who migrated. My ancestors were Judeans who were driven away by the Romans. We never asked, or wanted to leave this place. To evidence, Jews never left Israel unless forced to do so by a military force.

Well, if that is true why were there Jews living peacefully alongside their arab neighbours in the land you now call Israel prior to the return of the European Jews after the War. What you say is only partially true, the truth being that most jews left their historic home for economic reasons rather than military ones.

The ovious fact that the Palestinians, unlike the Zionists, have no other ideals but the destruction of israel seems to elude you.

Did you ever stop to think that the Israelis have no other ideals other than to push the owners out of their own land. perhaps that is what makes them such bad neighbours???

Hammas is a classic example of an organization that has no other thing in mind but death and destruction. Do they build new roads? Do they create agriculture? Do they have a vision for the land the "love" so much? No. In 60 years Israel has developed more than any arab country around it, though it has less natural resources, land and population. It allows liberty to all its people, unlike all its neigbours. But all that is irrelevent to you, isen?

As I said earlier, if the Israelis were not stealing their land, there would be no need for organisations like Hamas. They only have the support of the people because they irritate the Israelis.

Don't try to tell me about liberty. I can turn on the TV here any night, and see Israelis buldozing centuries old olive groves belonging to palestinians. Stealing their land and flattening their villages while israeli troops stand by doing nothing allowing Zionist extremists to freely build settlements on acknowledged Palestinian land which is even outside the areas claimed by Israel.

You seem to forget that every time anyone commits an indiscretion it is filmed by someone, somewhere, and it is on the news of the world that night to be seen by all, you can say what you like, but the evidence is there to be seen by the citizens of the world almost as it happens.

Your attempts to deligetemise my country are doomed to fail because you dont understand any of the proceses in the middle east in the last 200 years. You dont know or seem to want to know what Zionisem is, what are the diffrent Palestinian national movements are. In short, you have some sort of opinion, to which you copy and paste diffrent ideas and facts as they suit your typical bleeding heart self-hating western theories.

Yes,... that's right, it was our bleeding heart western theories that led to you having been given the land you now call Israel, and that was certainly a mistake. But just because we make a mistake does not mean that we must continue making them, the idea is to learn from out mistakes.

Tell me more about freedom in Israel.
Tell me why the UN has passed over 500 censure motions against the Israeli state since 1949.
I can find a hundred more equally incriminating pieces of evidence if you wish, and I haven't even started yet.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wr2oyODxyKo
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuWOi56Wq0
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=T1NLdRVkJiA

 

[SHERMAN]

Yes,... that's right, it was our bleeding heart western theories that led to you having been given the land you now call Israel, and that was certainly a mistake. But just because we make a mistake does not mean that we must continue making them, the idea is to learn from out mistakes.

This is a pointless discussion. Your views of history are based on half truths and complete lies. I would like to see you in a similar situation to ours, but htat would never happen.Im done.

 

[SHERMAN]

Ok, you dragged me back into it. you are a good troll.
Ok, just in case someone is sutpid enough to actually be effected by these "incriminating" films, i will respond shortly to each film.

Link one: Is a clip of so called "israeli war crimes". Some of the facts are off, some events are either fiction or half truth. some border in idiocy(claimining that israel killed 250 UN peace keeprs, when it is obvious that peacekeeprs in combat areas are sometimes hit by mistake). All in all I could easily make a better case against israel, if you need some help senojekips.The clip ends with a suggestion to check out the other clips:"jews are the childern of the devil" and "the jews killed christ" Nice use of classical anti-semetisem spike.
Link two: Contains mild phyisical and verbal violence by israeli settelers. These people are crazy, I know it, you know it, and most Israelis know it. So what, they curse and push people. Big deal. this is your smoking gun of war crimes? these settelers also physically attack israeli soldiers...The clip also says that "god punished the jews for their sins".LOL
Last clip: . An interview with a orthdox jew from the stmar hassidic branch. These are people that sent a delegation to Irans holocaust denial convention. They believe that Jews need to wait for the massiah to come before reseteling israel. In short, this guy is a spoksmen for a religous cult.

senojekips, seriously, this is low for you. I am used to, and even enjoy to a point your usuall intellectual(yet wrong) arguemnts. This is just ****, its excrememt. These are the last cards in the deck for anti-semites, radical muslims aand ultra-orthodox jews. What, should i show you clips of suicide bombings? This was really shamefull.

 

[papasha40]

You got it in one there.... No they don't have a country, so they should never have been allowed to take someone else's.

To say that Palestine in 1948 belonged to the Palestinians is not historically sound. Present day Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Palestinian territories and even the Red Sea side of Arabia, the Hijaz were all part of the Ottoman Empire until 1917, when it was conquered by the British. Subsequently areas were parcelled out to the French. And it remained this way up to 1948.

The communities living in these areas were not nationalistic. Maybe the Marrionites of Lebanon were. And after the end of the Second World War the massive Jewish exodus to the holy land had nationalistic feelings. And who could blame them.

The point is this. Territories are won by conquest all the time and the Palestine of pre-48 existance was British, for all intents and purposes.

The 2 state solution has been around at least since 1947 and at the beginning the early Jewish state was all for it. The problem was who would get what. There is certainly a moral basis for the Jews of Europe seeking a homeland in the middle east. There is also a moral basis for Palestinian reservations who have lived there for centuries. It was something the U.N. at the time should have worked on more energetically than it did with both the parties involved. Unlike today the U.N. in 1947 had some weight and a moral middle.

The Palestinians were and have been since a pawn in a much bigger Arab game. They had a good chance for statehood in the late 40's but it all went by the board, mostly because of Arab greed at the time. The Arab states at the time thought Israel would be strangled at birth. They also didn't want a new Palestinian state grabbing too much territory which they themselves coveted. This greed led to mistrust and even greater division within the Arab world. And those who suffered the most for it, were the Palestinians.

 

[MontyB]

Ok, you dragged me back into it. you are a good troll.
Ok, just in case someone is sutpid enough to actually be effected by these "incriminating" films, i will respond shortly to each film.

Link one: Is a clip of so called "israeli war crimes". Some of the facts are off, some events are either fiction or half truth. some border in idiocy(claimining that israel killed 250 UN peace keeprs, when it is obvious that peacekeeprs in combat areas are sometimes hit by mistake). All in all I could easily make a better case against israel, if you need some help senojekips.The clip ends with a suggestion to check out the other clips:"jews are the childern of the devil" and "the jews killed christ" Nice use of classical anti-semetisem spike.
Link two: Contains mild phyisical and verbal violence by israeli settelers. These people are crazy, I know it, you know it, and most Israelis know it. So what, they curse and push people. Big deal. this is your smoking gun of war crimes? these settelers also physically attack israeli soldiers...The clip also says that "god punished the jews for their sins".LOL
Last clip: . An interview with a orthdox jew from the stmar hassidic branch. These are people that sent a delegation to Irans holocaust denial convention. They believe that Jews need to wait for the massiah to come before reseteling israel. In short, this guy is a spoksmen for a religous cult.

senojekips, seriously, this is low for you. I am used to, and even enjoy to a point your usuall intellectual(yet wrong) arguemnts. This is just ****, its excrememt. These are the last cards in the deck for anti-semites, radical muslims aand ultra-orthodox jews. What, should i show you clips of suicide bombings? This was really shamefull.

That is a rather defensive response that does not actually refute anything that was said, another question I would have is why is it "wrong" to use extremist Jews to label a nation while you are happy to use extremist Muslims to do the same?

 

[SHERMAN]

That is a rather defensive response that does not actually refute anything that was said, another question I would have is why is it "wrong" to use extremist Jews to label a nation while you are happy to use extremist Muslims to do the same?

Im not going to refute youtube posts by anti-semite(and this time you cant say im crying wolf. look at the end of the first clip).

As for labeling my country based on the religous right, we dident ellect a religous cult into power, they did.

 

[Del Boy]

Israel is continually the target of anti-semites, like the one on these boards who once told me that he supported the shelling of Israel by the Arabs, and that the Jews brought their holocaust and associated problems upon themselves by failing to integrate.

Such characters stick their heads above the parapet whenever the opportunity is offerred. They can be recognised by the fact that ALL their criticism is of Israel and never even-handed.

Just critical of Israel - naaah - anti-semites pure and simple. Anti-Israel is no more than a new name.

Oh- and Jews did not, in fact, leave Israel for economic reasons generally, they were removed regularly by conquest and holocaust - driven. But at no time did they abandon their homeland - "Next year in Jerusalem". Obama claims he is committed to a two -state solution, with viable states and with Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Oh, and the ulra-orthodox are not representative of the democratic state of Israel.

 

[MontyB]

Israel is continually the target of anti-semites, like the one on these boards who once told me that he supported the shelling of Israel by the Arabs, and that the Jews brought their holocaust and associated problems upon themselves by failing to integrate.

Such characters stick their heads above the parapet whenever the opportunity is offerred. They can be recognised by the fact that ALL their criticism is of Israel and never even-handed.

Just critical of Israel - naaah - anti-semites pure and simple. Anti-Israel is no more than a new name.

Oh- and Jews did not, in fact, leave Israel for economic reasons generally, they were removed regularly by conquest and holocaust - driven. But at no time did they abandon their homeland - "Next year in Jerusalem". Obama claims he is committed to a two -state solution, with viable states and with Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Oh, and the ulra-orthodox are not representative of the democratic state of Israel.

You know one of the advantages sticking your head above the parapet is that you get to see what is going on, this can not be said for those that constantly hide behind others relying on them for all their opinions.

 

[senojekips]

Ok, just in case someone is sutpid enough to actually be effected by these "incriminating" films, i will respond shortly to each film.

Link one: Is a clip of so called "israeli war crimes". Some of the facts are off,

Only some? well that's hardly a defense is it, that's actually an admission that some of it is correct.

some events are either fiction or half truth. some border in idiocy(claimining that israel killed 250 UN peace keeprs, when it is obvious that peacekeeprs in combat areas are sometimes hit by mistake).

I'll concede that point, although I could be picky and pull it to pieces.

All in all I could easily make a better case against israel, if you need some help senojekips.The clip ends with a suggestion to check out the other clips:"jews are the childern of the devil" and "the jews killed christ" Nice use of classical anti-semetisem spike.

No... not even I agree with all of it, but unfortunately I can't edit the film. You may as well give up on the classic bolthole of Anti semitism because I'm not, what i will admit to is the fact that I'm "anti Zionist", (or the majority of their philosophy) which is a cat of a completely different colour.

Link two: Contains mild phyisical and verbal violence by israeli settelers. These people are crazy, I know it, you know it, and most Israelis know it. So what, they curse and push people. Big deal. this is your smoking gun of war crimes? these settelers also physically attack israeli soldiers...The clip also says that "god punished the jews for their sins".LOL

Remember, I'm an Atheist, so I just ignore the religious baggage of both sides. I don't care that the Jews allegedly killed Christ 2000 years ago, to me, if he existedat all as a person he was just anothe religious fraud. No, this clip was merely included because it was next on the list, to show the type of niggling things that people have to put up with from those who steal their land and kill their children. The sad thing is that if you really want i can keep posting other clips of similar events every day. My point being that it is not an isolated event.

Last clip: . An interview with a orthdox jew from the stmar hassidic branch. These are people that sent a delegation to Irans holocaust denial convention. They believe that Jews need to wait for the massiah to come before reseteling israel. In short, this guy is a spoksmen for a religous cult.

senojekips, seriously, this is low for you. I am used to, and even enjoy to a point your usuall intellectual(yet wrong) arguemnts. This is just ****, its excrememt. These are the last cards in the deck for anti-semites, radical muslims aand ultra-orthodox jews. What, should i show you clips of suicide bombings? This was really shamefull.

Sherman, don't worry too much, I am not perhaps the boogie man you think, I am not being a troll nor trying to insult you personally. (Read my Signature)

I am just showing you and others like you that there is a world opinion outside of Israel and the USA that you never seem to see or hear about. It is far better than these amateur clips from YouTube with professional video and cameramen from recognised news agencies. Your problem is that you live surrounded by your own propaganda, and don't seem to realise that people outside your country get to see many of the things that are never broadcast in Israel. Some are no more than annoyances, some like starving the populations of entire areas with enforced curfews are more serious, others are disgusting, no better than the nazi treatment of the Jews.

Don't worry about a few suicide bombings, we allknow why they happen, people do not sacrifice their own lives unless they are trying to tell the world that they are at the end of their rope, and have nothing left other than to kill themselves. While they are at it they may as well take some of their enemies with them.

How desperate would you have to be, to strap explosives to yourself and walk into a crowded Arab market and the turn yourself into mince meat?

I realise it will never happen, as the world is slowly becoming a more civilised place but, if ever the Jews are judged as the nazis were, there would be a lot more hangings.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Not true about suicide bombers... There are plenty of suicide bombers that could make something of themselves... The majority of them are simply greedy and easily manipulated.

 

[SHERMAN]

Only some? well that's hardly a defense is it, that's actually an admission that some of it is correct.

I never claimed that no israeli force has ever commited a war crime. I infact admitted that like any other country that fights hard and freequent we do have people who do wrong stuff. Would you rather i lied? On the other hand, while israeli policies and military orders negate and forbid such actions, palestinians support and worship terrorisem.

I'll concede that point, although I could be picky and pull it to pieces.

You would not like me to tell you how the UN keeps "nuetral" around here, trust me. Sending Muslim Nigerians to keep the peace is one example.

No... not even I agree with all of it, but unfortunately I can't edit the film. You may as well give up on the classic bolthole of Anti semitism because I'm not, what i will admit to is the fact that I'm "anti Zionist", (or the majority of their philosophy) which is a cat of a completely different colour.

I know your not anti-semite. I did not say you are. I did say you are using clips made by anti-semites. Using these pieces of propoganda is a risky game, because you already know its tainted.

Remember, I'm an Atheist, so I just ignore the religious baggage of both sides. I don't care that the Jews allegedly killed Christ 2000 years ago, to me, if he existedat all as a person he was just anothe religious fraud. No, this clip was merely included because it was next on the list, to show the type of niggling things that people have to put up with from those who steal their land and kill their children. The sad thing is that if you really want i can keep posting other clips of similar events every day. My point being that it is not an isolated event.

As a soldier who was involved in arresting, evicting and so on these people, i have no doubt you can. however, they dont run my country. Also, sporadic mild violence exists on both sides. Its a natural and unfortunate part of armed conflict. I my self was nearly beaten by 4 arabs in tel aviv 3 days ago. My crime consisted of hackeling the leader of a demonstration they were holding, because he was shouting that the should be a muslim country from Gaza to Beirut. The police than asked me to leave, because they have a right to protest and i dont(with out a permit to assamble).

Sherman, don't worry too much, I am not perhaps the boogie man you think, I am not being a troll nor trying to insult you personally. (Read my Signature)

Im worried to see inteligent minds that are attached to big hearts and than fail to see the real issues and real enemies. If i thought you were just a troll or an idiot we wouldent be talking, i would ban you

I am just showing you and others like you that there is a world opinion outside of Israel and the USA that you never seem to see or hear about. It is far better than these amateur clips from YouTube with professional video and cameramen from recognised news agencies. Your problem is that you live surrounded by your own propaganda, and don't seem to realise that people outside your country get to see many of the things that are never broadcast in Israel. Some are no more than annoyances, some like starving the populations of entire areas with enforced curfews are more serious, others are disgusting, no better than the nazi treatment of the Jews.

your assumption that i am not aware of this facts and opinions is funny. remember, i was in the west bank as a soldier and as a NCO. No one is starving anyone and infact even right now food is being brought into gaza from israel. I was asked for candy by palestinian children more than once, which shows you they are used to getting it from soldiers.

Don't worry about a few suicide bombings, we allknow why they happen, people do not sacrifice their own lives unless they are trying to tell the world that they are at the end of their rope, and have nothing left other than to kill themselves. While they are at it they may as well take some of their enemies with them.

How desperate would you have to be, to strap explosives to yourself and walk into a crowded Arab market and the turn yourself into mince meat?

Dont worrie abotu a few suicide bombings? LOL. Ever wake up in the morning and thought "Id better not take the bus, i might be killed"? I had friends who werent alowed to go to town because their parents were afraid. currently 1/4 of my countrys poulation is under threat of rockets attack. The fact that there are little casualties hardly makes it acceptable.

I will respect anyone who picks up a weapon and fights agianst military targets. if i was a palestinian, i would be a PLO militant. But intentionaly attacking civilians is a policy i cannot and will not accept as legitemt. You can tell me we do it too, but since i have been in every theatere of operation and i know the ROEs, i suggest you dont.

 

[senojekips]

I never claimed that no israeli force has ever commited a war crime. I infact admitted that like any other country that fights hard and freequent we do have people who do wrong stuff.

Perhaps this is a failing on my part, I would desperately like to think that the Israelis were above these types of things, especially bearing in mind the past recent history of the Jewish people. I must say though that I am completely convinced that these crimes are, if not state sanctioned, at least they turn a blind eye, which to me is just as bad.

You would not like me to tell you how the UN keeps "nuetral" around here, trust me. Sending Muslim Nigerians to keep the peace is one example.

I'll be quite honest and admit that I had never even thought about it, and knowing the Nigerians as I do from the oil industry, I can sympathise with you on that one point. But surely they are overseen by others?

I know your not anti-semite. I did not say you are. I did say you are using clips made by anti-semites. Using these pieces of propoganda is a risky game, because you already know its tainted.

I believe that anti semites don't necessarily always tell lies, especially when it is backed up by similar reports and video made by legitimate news agencies, who I might add are often harrassed and sometimes beaten by Israeli troops for doing their jobs. Once again there is video evidence of this including one of Israeli troops standing close by doing nothing to stop children and others from stoning news crews. They were in fact giving support to the stone throwers. All of these things may seem incidental, but altogether they add up to criminal behaviour.

As a soldier who was involved in arresting, evicting and so on these people, i have no doubt you can. however, they dont run my country. Also, sporadic mild violence exists on both sides. Its a natural and unfortunate part of armed conflict. I my self was nearly beaten by 4 arabs in tel aviv 3 days ago. My crime consisted of hackeling the leader of a demonstration they were holding, because he was shouting that the should be a muslim country from Gaza to Beirut. The police than asked me to leave, because they have a right to protest and i dont(with out a permit to assamble).

I may not agree with the things that you have to do, but as an ex serviceman, I not so stupid as to not understand your position. I have little argument with the individual troops on the ground, except where they take it into their own hands to commit crimes, either actively or passively (letting others commit crimes)

Im worried to see inteligent minds that are attached to big hearts and than fail to see the real issues and real enemies. If i thought you were just a troll or an idiot we wouldent be talking, i would ban you

Regardless of our differences of opinion, I have always thought that you were "big enough between the tits" to hear me out, and thankfully it seems that you are as big a man as I thought.. Sometimes we all have to take calculated risks to say our piece.

your assumption that i am not aware of this facts and opinions is funny. remember, i was in the west bank as a soldier and as a NCO. No one is starving anyone and infact even right now food is being brought into gaza from israel. I was asked for candy by palestinian children more than once, which shows you they are used to getting it from soldiers.

I have no doubt that there are many "good men" in the Israeli forces, I am not denying that for a second, my beef is with the overall prosecution of the war against the Palestinians, things like the destruction of their homes and orchards, needless over reaction, all the things I (and others) have pointed out here. My assumption comes about because I can't believe that anyone who sees the same News that I see (along with much of the rest of the world) could not agree with my thoughts. Stopping the population of an area from leaving their houses for days on end, or children to attend schools is criminal, as is the refusal to allow ambulances to help the sick. (Video evidence)

Dont worrie abotu a few suicide bombings? LOL. Ever wake up in the morning and thought "Id better not take the bus, i might be killed"? I had friends who werent alowed to go to town because their parents were afraid. currently 1/4 of my countrys poulation is under threat of rockets attack. The fact that there are little casualties hardly makes it acceptable.

It is not acceptable, but my point is that they kill very few Israelis compared with the number you kill in return, yet they go on. That says that there is far more to this than just killing, they are making a point, they are willing to go to any length to get what they want. I' dunno, but I've never heard about any Israelis being so desperate as to become suicide bombers.

I will respect anyone who picks up a weapon and fights agianst military targets. if i was a palestinian, i would be a PLO militant. But intentionaly attacking civilians is a policy i cannot and will not accept as legitemt.

This is their way because they have no Army, Navy or Airforce, they have no hellfire missiles nor other sophisticated weapons systems, so consequently they use what they have, in any way they can, it is a policy borne of sheer desperation. I don't think that they enjoy blowing themselves to pieces just to make a point.

 

[SHERMAN]

Perhaps this is a failing on my part, I would desperately like to think that the israelis were above these types of things, especially bearing in mind the past recent history of the Jewish people. I must say though that I am completely convinced that these crimes are, if not state sanctioned, at least they turn a blind eye, which to me is just as bad.

They are not sanctioned nor ignored. ROEs are clear cut. a target which is not a threat is not to be engaged. period.

I'll be quite honest and admit that I had never even thought about it, and knowing the Nigerians as I do from the oil industry, I can sympathise with you on that one point. But surely they are overseen by others?

They served as artillery spoters for hizballah. This is a fact. i have seen photographic evidence of UN pilots meeting with hizballah militants.

I may not agree with the things that you have to do, but as an ex serviceman, I not so stupid as to not understand your position. I have little argument with the individual troops on the ground, except where they take it into their own hands to commit crimes, either actively or passively (letting others commit crimes)

Soldiers can not arrest israeli citizens. they can only intervene if life is threatend. Also remember that the israeli army is a conscripted army, so yes, we have some radical ssholes in uniform.

things like the destruction of their homes and orchards, needless over reaction, all the things I (and others) have pointed out here. My assumption comes about because I can't believe that anyone who sees the same News that I see (along with much of the rest of the world) could not agree with my thoughts. Stopping the population of an area from leaving their houses for days on end, or children to attend schools is criminal, as is the refusal to allow ambulances to help the sick. (Video evidence)

If the choice is to allow a suicide bomber to enter an israeli town, or to keep a curfue in a palestinian village, id rather have a curfue. I do, and have never said otherwise, value israeli civilians well being more than the enemies civilian well being. If you think thats wrong, i dont know what to say. As for ambulances, the palestinians used them more than once to move weapons and sucide bombers. we allow their injured and sick in but we make them move to an israeli ambulance(this sometimes takes critical time and the patient dies). It is sad but its a result of their cynical use of ambulances.

It is not acceptable, but my point is that they kill very few Israelis compared with the number you kill in return, yet they go on. That says that there is far more to this than just killing, they are making a point, they are willing to go to any length to get what they want. I' dunno, but I'venever heard about any Israeli suicide bombers.

No jewish rabbi would sanction suicide attacks. i agree they are willing to go to the end. so am i, and i believe so are most israeli-jews. Im affraid we are forced to live and die by the sword, but that dosent make me one bit ready to give up what i see as my land and my country.

This is their way because they have no Army, Navy or Airforce, they have no hellfire missiles nor other sophisticated weapons systems, so consequently they use what they have, in any way they can, it is a policy borne of sheer desperation. I don't think that they enjoy blowing themselves to pieces just to make a point.

That may be true but no matter the reason a deliberate attack to kill women and children is out of my sphere of morality. no matter what. yes, my country kills women and children as colleteal damage. but at least we give it a thought. we cancel operations with possibilety of high colleteral damage. they think of it as prime targets.

 

[senojekips]

That may be true but no matter the reason a deliberate attack to kill women and children is out of my sphere of morality. no matter what. yes, my country kills women and children as colleteal damage. but at least we give it a thought. we cancel operations with possibilety of high colleteral damage. they think of it as prime targets.

For the most part, I can see where you get your point of view, but that has never really been what the debate is about. I still disagree with the fact that Israel was given up as a "Jewish State" by the Brits largely to assuage the collective guilt of the Allies and the British occupying forces in Palestine, rather than making it a Palestinian homeland.

By that I mean, a homeland for the people who were living in the area called Palestine at that time, both arabs and Jews alike.

I will comment on the last quote however. When your cause is legitimate and back is to the wall, morality becomes a very poor second choice. What would you choose your morals or your life? These people are so convinced of their cause that they are willing to sacrifice both.

 

[SHERMAN]

For the most part, I can see where you get your point of view, but that has never really been what the debate is about. I still disagree with the fact that Israel was given up as a "Jewish State" by the Brits largely to assuage the collective guilt of the Allies and the British occupying forces in Palestine, rather than making it a Palestinian homeland.

actually, the UK gave it to both. the partition called for two seperate states. the arabs chose war and lost. by the way, even the parts that were left in arab hands did not become independent, they were occupied by the jordanians and egyptians. why dident they give the palestinians a homeland?

I will comment on the last quote however. When your cause is legitimate and back is to the wall, morality becomes a very poor second choice. What would you choose your morals or your life?

When they can have not only their lives, but a country, if they just stop terror, the chocie seems easy.

 

[senojekips]

actually, the UK gave it to both. the partition called for two seperate states. the arabs chose war and lost. by the way, even the parts that were left in arab hands did not become independent, they were occupied by the jordanians and egyptians. why dident they give the palestinians a homeland?

actually the "Palestinians" (as I defined earlier) were given only "a part" of their own country the remainder was just given away, largely to the European Jews.

It would be like you coming to your home only to find that while you were not in control, your next door neighbour had given half of your home to some homeless man whom they felt guilty about. I'm sure you would not be happy, nor say, "Ahhh well,... if I do what he wants, he will not kill me, he will steal more of my land and lay claim to anything I can't actually protect, and if I do try to protect it he will kill me anyway, but I will have a peaceful life". I don't think so....

When they can have not only their lives, but a country, if they just stop terror, the chocie seems easy.

The life of Arabs in Israel is not a life at all,... it is barely an existence, and if the militant extremist settlers have their way they won't have that either. In short it is a form of genocide in penny lots.

 

[MontyB]

Not true about suicide bombers... There are plenty of suicide bombers that could make something of themselves... The majority of them are simply greedy and easily manipulated.

Greedy suicide bombers?

Is that anything similar to a veteran kamikaze pilot?

 

[Rob Henderson]

Greedy suicide bombers?

Is that anything similar to a veteran kamikaze pilot?

You think they do it more out of hate, or out of the knowledge that they're getting their 42 virgins in Paradise? You think they would have done it if Allah DIDN'T promise those worldly possessions?

 

[papasha40]

You think they do it more out of hate, or out of the knowledge that they're getting their 42 virgins in Paradise? You think they would have done it if Allah DIDN'T promise those worldly possessions?

I'll go along with, they are easily manipulated. I have a sneaking suspicion we are dealing with people of very low I.Qs and self esteem problems.

By the way, does anyone know what they are suppose to recieve in Paradise. I heard the river of honey part. Now how many virgins, and is there anything else.