The German campaign of conquering Britain

I agree that the 20th century has seen the demise of expansionism by military means. It just doesn't work any more because the vast majority of people, rightly, just won't stand for it. Most of this is down to technological reasons and in that I mean in communication and information technology rather than military technology, although a military advance in nuclear physics certainly curtailed Soviet expansionism in Western Europe after WWII. Information is a hugely powerful commodity and with its decentralization to the masses governments have lost a good deal of power.

I would argue now that expansionism by cultural and religious means is the new currency of empire building, but of course this is a subject for another thread. ;) Incidentally the US did expend a huge amount of resources in keeping Western Europe free from communism but they weren't just doing it for altruistic reasons.

But even now it is clear that US "cultural", political and religious expansionism is in decline, in essence the US "empire" (influence) peaked with the end of the cold war they just haven't realised it yet, perhaps it could be argued that WW2 never really ended until the 1980s with the collapse of the communist block just as many argue that WW1 didn't end until 1945 there was just a 21 year rest and rearming period.
Perhaps General Andrew McNaughton said it best in November 1918 "We have them on the run. That means we will have to do it over again in another 25 years."

Anyway back to the start of WW2 I think there is perhaps a slight misconception in that Britain and France went to war for Poland they didn't they went to war over Poland and it was an avoidable action, all Germany had to do was withdraw before the deadline or better yet not go there at all.

(2) Your view of decreasing empires is wrong. One of the greatest expansions of the British and French empires happened in 1919 -- the great carving up of the Central Powers' colonial possessions. After WWII, the Allies fought tremendous wars to hold onto their possessions -- French Indochina, Algeria, Rhodesia, etc. The French and British even forced a war against Nasser's Egypt in the 1950s to try and retain control of Suez. In all of these wars, the Allies were up to their necks in blood.

I would argue that these actions were the last actions of empires that were dead and simply didn't know it and the fact that they had to fight to retain what they had was an indication of this.
 
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I would argue now that expansionism by cultural and religious means is the new currency of empire building,

I was just writing almost exactly the same comment, although I would call it empire building by stealth. Ultimately the reason behind most armed conflict of the past was to gain power, wealth and dominance over peoples minds. Religious fundamentalists, large shareholders of big businesses and their political cronies are the new 'warlords' who are attempting just the same. Other than this I agree with Monty's comments about WW2 entirely.
 
Do you know guys, I have just realised that I am completely bored with Hitler. The little prick has been part of my life since I was born in London and he bombed my home. I'm not complaining - actually I am half-way through my book 'Who killed Hitler'?, and I'm sure you all would have enjoyed my poem (oops), which represents the spirit of Britain in WW11.

But everything has to come to an end, so now I am going to kick the little **** into touch and move on.
Who cares how evil he was, or how mad. He didn't get me, tho he tried hard enough. F****** LOSER.

So now its good bye and good riddance to him, and what better place to kick his ass than here on this great forum.

Adolf, you little stinker - its adios and Goodnight nurse.

Thank you guys for your kind attention.

COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.
 
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Incidentally the US did expend a huge amount of resources in keeping Western Europe free from communism but they weren't just doing it for altruistic reasons.

"Coca-colonization": You ain't kiddin'. But most Germans preferred "coca-colonization" to death in a Siberian Gulag. Most French, on the other hand, refused to drink coke and spoke favourably of Stalin. The French.
 
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Do you know guys, I have just realised that I am completely bored with Hitler. The little prick has been part of my life since I was born in London and he bombed my home. I'm not complaining - actually I am half-way through my book 'Who killed Hitler'?, and I'm sure you all would have enjoyed my poem (oops), which represents the spirit of Britain in WW11.

But everything has to come to an end, so now I am going to kick the little **** into touch and move on.
Who cares how evil he was, or how mad. He didn't get me, tho he tried hard enough. F****** LOSER.

So now its good bye and good riddance to him, and what better place to kick his ass than here on this great forum.

Adolf, you little stinker - its adios and Goodnight nurse.

Thank you guys for your kind attention.

COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.

I thought about you wrote for a while. The meaning of your words, and those of the last few posts, bounced around in my head for a while.

General: You are all blaming Germany for things that resulted directly from the British declaration of war. This way of thinking constitutes fallacy after fallacy after fallacy.

Del Boy: As far as your house burning down, cry me a river. Whitehall started the war to prevent increases in German power. If the "end justifies the means", then your house buring down was the price you had to pay for the "balance of power".

As for me, British air attacks on a village in western Germany at the end of the war took the lives of some of my family and destroyed our family house. The other side of my family suffered far worse. I do not want to go into too many details, but only my grandfather and a few of his children survived the Soviet rape and execution squads. My grandmother "fell". The rest of that side "disappeared". Both of my grandfathers spent years in POW & internment camps and one of them died of TB when he came "home". Most of the family belongings were lost to the Soviets and Poles.

After all of this, your only comment will be: "They deserved it". Other people will complain that I downplay the misery of Hitler's victims. They want me to accept the fact that my family had to die because Britain had the duty to uphold their interpretation of the European balance of power: a powerless Germany unable to defend itself against any of its neighbours.

German Peace Proposals: As for the German peace proposals of 1939 and 1940 and 1941 -- including the Hess flight to Britain, the better question to ask is why Britain did not want peace. Churchill himself said that this time there would be no peace. The biggest American-British fear during the war was that Stalin would sign some kind of armistice. In fact, the British and Americans failed to support German anti-Hitler organizations BECAUSE they didn't want them to succeed. They wanted to destroy Germany -- Hitler or no Hitler.

The only thing that saved Germany from being "Carthaged" in 1945 was the death of Roosevelt. If Truman had not taken the American throne, Britain, France and the USSR would have erased Germany and killed tens of millions in the process.
 
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ORIGINALLY POSTED BY OLLIE

The meaning of your words, and those of the last few posts, bounced around in my head for a while.

General: You are all blaming Germany for things that resulted directly from the British declaration of war. This way of thinking constitutes fallacy after fallacy after fallacy.

LOOK – YOU ARE BORING ME TO DEATH, STILL TRYING TO POLISH A TURD.
HOWEVER, SINCE YOU ADRESSED ME- HERE WE GO, OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.

WHAT WAS I BLAMING GERMANY FOR? I HAVE ASKED YOU MANY TIMES TO LET GERMANY OFF THE HOOK. IT SEEMS YOU ARE BLAMING GERMANY FOR EVERYTHING THAT THE LITTLE **** BROUGHT UPON THEM WITH HIS DELIBERATE CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE NATIONS OF EUROPE.

EXAMPLES PLEASE – DON’T BE VAGUE.





Del Boy: As far as your house burning down, cry me a river. Whitehall started the war to prevent increases in German power. If the "end justifies the means", then your house buring down was the price you had to pay for the "balance of power".


READ MY LIPS – I DID NOT SAY MY HOUSE BURNED DOWN. HOW TRICKY CAN YOU POSSIBLY GET.

I HAVE PRESESENTED YOU WITH PROOF OF THE IRREFUTABLE FACT THAT ONE PERSON WAS IN A POSITION TO SAY YEA OR NAY TO THE WAR HE SO DESPERATELY DESIRED. THAT WAS THE LITTLE **** WHO, AFTER MANY PROVOCATIONS FINALLY ATTACKED POLAND, REFUSED TO WITHDRAW, AND DIDN’T HAVE THE GUTS TO REPLY TO THE ULTIMATUM. HE SWITCHED ON WW11 FOR THE GLORY OF HIS 1000 YEAR DUNG BUILT THIRD REICH.

MY HOME WAS BOMBED BY A DIRECT LUTWAFFE HIT – THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT TO BURN. THIS WAS IN THE OPENING STAGES. MOST OF THE CITY OF LONDON AND ITS ENVIRONS SUFFERED LIKEWISE. THE LUTWAFFE TRIED TO REDUCE LONDON TO RUBBLE – TO MAKE US SUBMIT. BUT HITLER GOT WHAT YOU ARE GETTING NOW – UP YOURS!
A SHORT TIME LATER THEY DESTROYED MY NEXT HOME –THIS TIME A FLOATING LAND-MINE WHICH TOOK THE WHOLE STREET.

BUT HEY – I WASN’T CRYING – THE LITTLE **** GOT HIS. HOWEVER MY HITLER-LOVER, DON’T COME CRYING TO ME ABOUT WHAT HITLER’S MAD AMBITION BROUGHT UPON YOUR FAMILY. BLAME THE LITTLE **** AND LIVE WITH IT.
JUST CONSIDER THAT I AM LETTING YOU OFF LIGHTLY, YOU AND GERMANY BY NOT GOING INTO MY PERSONAL WAR CRIMES LIST AGAINST YOUR DISGUSTING BEAST OF A HERO.

AS YOU TOLD ME –THAT IS THE PRICE YOU & YOUR FAMILY PAID FOR THEIR INVOLVEMENT WITH THE LITTLE ****. YOU AND I HAVE THAT MUCH IN COMMON
 
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ORIGINALLY POSTED BY OLLIE.

As for me, British air attacks on a village in western Germany at the end of the war took the lives of some of my family and destroyed our family house. The other side of my family suffered far worse. I do not want to go into too many details, but only my grandfather and a few of his children survived the Soviet rape and execution squads. My grandmother "fell". The rest of that side "disappeared". Both of my grandfathers spent years in POW & internment camps and one of them died of TB when he came "home". Most of the family belongings were lost to the Soviets and Poles.

After all of this, your only comment will be: "They deserved it". Other people will complain that I downplay the misery of Hitler's victims. They want me to accept the fact that my family had to die because Britain had the duty to uphold their interpretation of the European balance of power: a powerless Germany unable to defend itself against any of its neighbours.


YOU WILL NOTE I HAVE NOT SAID THEY DESERVED IT – NO-ONE DESERVED THE LITTLE **** AND HIS CONSEQUENCES EXCEPT HIS ADHERENTS.







German Peace Proposals: As for the German peace proposals of 1939 and 1940 and 1941 -- including the Hess flight to Britain, the better question to ask is why Britain did not want peace. Churchill himself said that this time there would be no peace. The biggest American-British fear during the war was that Stalin would sign some kind of armistice. In fact, the British and Americans failed to support German anti-Hitler organizations BECAUSE they didn't want them to succeed. They wanted to destroy Germany -- Hitler or no Hitler.

The only thing that saved Germany from being "Carthaged" in 1945 was the death of Roosevelt. If Truman had not taken the American throne, Britain, France and the USSR would have erased Germany and killed tens of millions in the process.

DO ME A FAVOUR – THE LITTLE **** WOULD NOT LET GERMANY OFF THE HOOK EVEN AS THE RUSSIANS MOVED INTO BERLIN. HE WAS DETERMINED THAT HIS GERMAN’ LOSERS’ SHOULD GO DOWN WITH HIM – NEVER TO RISE AGAIN – JUST AS HE DID FOR PARIS AND WARSAW.

THE HESS AFFAIR WAS A FARCE – HE WAS ESCAPING THE LITTLE ****- JUMPING SHIP , WAS HE NOT.

THE AMERICANS AND THEIR ALLIES RESCUED AND RESTORED GERMANY AND GERMANY OWES EVERYTHING TO THEIR AMERICAN SAVIOURS.

GET DOWN ON YOUR KNEES AND THANK GOD THE AMERICA AND ITS ALLIES WERE SO MAGNANIMOUS.

LET ME TELL YOU THAT THE MORE I HEAR FROM YOU THE MORE I DETECT YOUR PARANOIA.

YOU ATTEMPT TO LOAD THE FREE WORLD WITH THE BLAME FOR ALL THAT GERMANY INHERITED FROM THE LITTLE ****.
HE WAS A **** AND NOW YOU COME ALONG AND TALK ****. ALL THAT IS NOT ONLY A WIDELY HELD THEORY BUT ALSO A FACT.

YOUR LAST SENTENCE IS PATENTLY A FICTION FROM A PARANOID OVER ACTIVE IMAGINATION.

HEY –HO. NOW YOU ARE BORING ME AGAIN. I’M OFF.

BEFORE I DO, LET ME RECOMMEND THE LYRICS FROM A SONG WHICH EXPRESSSES MY VIEW OF THE WORLD AND MY WISH FOR ALL MEN, WHICH AS AN ENGLISHMAN I HELPED SNATCH FROM THE JAWS OF THE LITTLE ****. TAKE IT HEART, PASS IT ON.


BORN FREE
AS FREE AS THE WIND BLOWS
AS FREE AS THE GRASS GROWS
BORN FREE
TO FOLLOW YOUR HEART

LIVE FREE
AS BEAUTY SURROUNDS YOU
THE WORLD WILL ASTOUND YOU
EACH TIME YOU LOOK AT A STAR

STAY FREE
LET NO WALLS DIVIDE YOU
AS FREE AS THE ROARING TIDE
SO THERE’S NO NEED TO HIDE.

BORN FREE
AS LIFE IS WORTH LIVING
BUT ONLY WORTH LIVING
IF YOU'RE BORN FREE.






THIS IS WHAT IT HAS MEANT TO BE AN ENGLISHMAN ,AND FROM WW11 HAS BEEN THE GIFT OF CHURCHILL AND THE U.S.

NOW IT IS UNDER THREAT AGAIN, BUT WE WILL RISE TO THE CHALLENGE.

SO WE SURE COULD DO WITHOUT YOUR CRAP – BUT HEY – WE’LL DEAL WITH IT. BRING IT ON.

COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.


KINDLY EXCUSE THE CRUDITY USED IN THIS POST – UNFORTUNATELY IT IS ACCURATE AND FITS EXACTLY.
 
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General: You are all blaming Germany for things that resulted directly from the British declaration of war. This way of thinking constitutes fallacy after fallacy after fallacy.
How so, Britain only declared war to honour her pact with Poland. Unlike so many of the pacts and agreements made by Germany that were never honoured, nor intended to be, but merely meant to give their intended victims a false sense of security until the Germans were in an advantageous position to attack them. Germany could have prevented the war by not attacking Poland, but they didn't want to or considered that it was worth the risk... and they were wrong!
Now Nazi apologists such as yourself are crawling out of the woodwork after most of those who were directly involved are long dead and unable to tell you the truth. They may not be here to defend their actions, but the world has a long memory and is not ready to forget the truth of the matter just yet.

German Peace Proposals: As for the German peace proposals of 1939 and 1940 and 1941 -- including the Hess flight to Britain,
They were not peace proposals, they were blackmail attempts to get the allies to agree to the rape of Europe by Germany. If that's a peace proposal I'd hate to see what would happen if Germany resorted to thuggery. Hess only defected when he realised the enormity of Germany's blunder. To consider to this farce as a genuine Peace proposal is ludicrous.

the better question to ask is why Britain did not want peace. Churchill himself said that this time there would be no peace.
Said after Germany had forced Britain to go to war, meaning, if Germany wants war, we will give it to them, and quite rightly so, because Hitler would have considered any attempt at reconciliation as a sign of weakness.

The biggest American-British fear during the war was that Stalin would sign some kind of armistice.
Is this some kind of German joke? Prior to Germany invading Russia, (yes, another act of treachery by Hitler against his alleged allies). Hitler and Stalin already had a peace agreement.

In fact, the British and Americans failed to support German anti-Hitler organizations BECAUSE they didn't want them to succeed. They wanted to destroy Germany -- Hitler or no Hitler.
The truth is that most of the people that were anti NAZI were unable to be assisted or contacted, because they were enjoying a holiday funded by the German people at the new holiday camps at places like Mauthausen, Buchenwald and Dachau. To avoid undue stress the members of these exclusive holiday camps were isolated from the cares of the outside world, and given frequent exercise and "rubber club" massages by the special "deaths head" assistants. Another truly admirable concept thought up and put into place by the NAZIs. With the most exciting pastimes such as Vernichtung durch Arbeit.

The only thing that saved Germany from being "Carthaged" in 1945 was the death of Roosevelt. If Truman had not taken the American throne, Britain, France and the USSR would have erased Germany and killed tens of millions in the process.
Well, to me it appears that you are confusing the intentions of the allies with those of Germany, We had no plans of enforced removal of the population to the east. Even the Russians who treated the Germans with far greater disdain than the other Allies came no where near what you are alleging, and Roosevelt, or the lack of him didn't affect their plans in the least.

Why don't you just accept the blame for what Germany did, your constant bleating about how well intentioned the German rape of Europe was, is nothing short of sickening. A bit like Germany's "Peace Proposals".
 
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...from the great humanitarian himself. We have nothing in common.


ollie - KEEP UP - THAT WAS A QUOTE TAKEN STRAIGHT FROM YOU, AND RETURNED WITH MY COMPLIMENTS + A BONUS.

iT IS MOST CERTAIN THAT WE HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON, THANK GOD. OBVIOUSLY IRONY IS WASTED ON YOU.





COMMAND THE FUTURE, CONQUER THE PAST.
 
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SENOJEKIPS - your last post.

that was a great post. Clear and concise and so accurate. My certainties which stem from my being on the scene often stand in the way a cooler perspective. It seems strange now, when post-war Churchill was the local M.P. in the consistuency next to mine and at the first election after WW11, which put Winston out, I was a small boy working in the east London headquarters of Major Paul Wright, the Liberal candidate, from Montgomery's staff. My Dad was a staunch Labour man and remained so.

I have a long-term memory that doesn't allow me to forget anything, so i am crammed with info always waiting to get out.

For example, Hamburg after the war. The drinking clubs, the night clubs, the names of girl friends. It stays with me. The ferry across the Elbe, filled with early morning Germans going to work etc., I was a young camera.

Cheers.
 
Churchill: The Gathering Storm

By Professor John Charmley (for the BBC)​

Winston Churchill Professor John Charmley discusses whether Churchill has rewritten the history books to portray himself as a foreign policy visionary during the time of Appeasement.

Kind history

'History will judge us kindly', Churchill told Roosevelt and Stalin at the Tehran Conference in 1943; when asked how he could be so sure, he responded: 'because I shall write the history'. And so he did, in the six massive volumes of The Second World War. The first volume, The Gathering Storm, describes his opposition to the appeasement of Hitler during the 1930s, and provides the text for a BBC TV drama of the same name.

There is, in fact, nothing very controversial about the claim that Churchill was alone in his opposition to appeasement; it was one he made himself in 1948, and is generally acknowledged. If you want controversy, it must come in the form of an argument to counter the central thesis of The Gathering Storm, namely that Churchill was right and his critics wrong. This is a difficult task, because The Gathering Storm has been one of the most influential books of our time. It is no exaggeration to claim that it has strongly influenced the behaviour of Western politicians from Harry S. Truman to George W. Bush.

Its central theme - the futility of appeasement and the need to stand up to dictators - is one that has been taken for granted as a self-evident truth in Western society, both during the period of the Cold War and subsequently. The evidence for this supposed truth is Churchill's view of the 1930s as 'the years that the locust hath eaten', during which the Western powers, by their own folly, allowed Germany to re-arm; never again, the message went, must this be allowed to happen. It is a good tale, told by a master story-teller, who did, after all, win the Nobel prize for literature; but would the Booker prize for fiction have been more appropriate?

Want of judgement?

Churchill spent much effort in the late 1930s in trying to warn of the danger that Hitler posed to Europe, and of the lack of Britain's preparedness for war. In The Gathering Storm, he says nothing about his secret sources of information about the state of Britain's weaponry (which mainly came from discontented RAF officers), but talks in detail about the central event in his own personal psycho-drama, the Munich settlement of 1938, when Chamberlain accepted the transfer of part of Czechoslovakia to Germany as the price to be paid for 'peace in our time'.

Most historians have dismissed most of the supposedly secret information passed to Churchill as pretty worthless, but that is really beside the point - the central flaw in Churchill's version of events is that it amounts to no more than an exercise in self-promotion. The sheer unlikeliness that everyone was out of step but our Winston is obscured by his iconic status as the man who won the war and as 'the prophet of truth' before it.

It is not just that Churchill was inconsistent in his criticisms of Hitler (whom he once hoped to see 'a kinder figure in a gentler age'); his whole reading of events leading up to World War Two was badly flawed, and looks good only with the advantage of hindsight. Because the war was won by a 'Grand Alliance' of Britain, America and the Soviet Union, it is easy to argue that Churchill's advocacy of such an alignment in 1938 should have been listened to at the time. As the pressure on Czechoslovakia from Hitler mounted in early 1938, Churchill did indeed call for a 'Grand Alliance'; but far from this being an example of his far-sightedness, it actually showed the myopia and want of judgement that kept sensible men away from him during the 1930s. As Neville Chamberlain commented at the time, 'there is everything to be said for Winston's plan, until you examine it.' If Churchill was crying in the wilderness, it was the wildness of his own ideas that had taken him there.

Contrary to the view promoted by Churchill, Prime Minister Chamberlain did not reject his plans without taking official advice, but as far as the Foreign Office was concerned, Churchill's ideas were the equivalent of amateur night at the karaoke bar, and the arguments against them were very strong. First, America, the first part of the 'Grand Alliance', was still an isolationist power. It had no army capable of intervening in Europe and no politician arguing for such a policy. Next, the second part of the alliance, the Soviet Union, which (as Stalin had not forgotten) Churchill had tried to strangle at birth, was actually part of the problem, not of the solution; only a mentality as Anglocentric as Churchill's could have imagined otherwise.

Grand Alliance

This was because most of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe only survived, diplomatically, by balancing between Russia and Germany. Few liked Germany, but even fewer favoured Stalin's communist alternative. A few rulers, like the wily King Boris of Bulgaria, suspected that Communism was just the latest excuse for Russian imperialism; no one thought that Stalin was a solution to their problems. Furthermore, on the military front there were very real doubts about whether the recently purged Red Army would be a match for the Germans.

In relation to Russia there was also a very obvious geographical problem, which Churchill overlooked. Russia could not help Czechoslovakia directly because she had no common border - and neither of the two countries with direct access to Czechoslovakia was likely to offer Russia any help. The Poles, who had suffered under Russian misrule for more than a century and whose independence had been won at Russian expense, would be unlikely, understandably, to want Soviet troops on Polish soil. That left only Rumania, where King Carol, facing a challenge from a strong local fascist movement, was not going to risk alienating it by co-operating with Communist Russia.

Thirdly, the Foreign Office analysis also ruled out help from France. Ever since Britain had refused to back the French in a hard-line anti-German policy in 1923, the French had relied upon a defensive strategy against Berlin; they were not going to change in the late 1930s at Churchill's behest. France was a badly divided country, where many right-wing politicians preferred Hitler to the socialist premier, Leon Blum. That left only Britain herself to make up the proposed 'Alliance'.

The reasons why Britain was not going to challenge Germany by herself were so numerous that they went on for pages of Foreign Office analysis. Disillusioned by the experience and results of the Great War, British public opinion opposed the idea of another war. Rearmament was a far more problematic concept than Churchill allowed. As a global power, Britain already had to defend its interests in the Far and Middle East against Japan and Italy respectively; but to rearm against Germany as well would bankrupt the country - which would hardly deter Hitler.

Churchill's myth

In addition to these arguments, rearmament was controversial politically; the Labour party opposed too much of it, and the trades unions wanted guarantees about employment for their members before they would agree to it. Then, of course, it took time to build factories, and even more time to find skilled labour. In 1931 Britain had faced the biggest financial crisis in its history, but by the late 1930s, thanks to Chamberlain's time as Chancellor, the economy was recovering, and to mount a massive rearmament programme would have placed that achievement in jeopardy. In the face of these facts, the government had to proceed slowly. It is also worth noting that Chamberlain could hardly have been that bad a choice as prime minister, or Churchill would hardly have seconded his nomination - a fact he somehow omitted from his memoirs. As a literary artist, however, when writing his memoirs, Churchill knew that when truth was stranger than fiction, you should always opt for the latter.

Churchill's line in The Gathering Storm has carried conviction for two reasons: after 1940 no-one wanted to be associated with appeasement because it had failed; after 1945 everyone wanted to have been prescient about the virtues of 'The Grand Alliance'. And the very march of events after 1945 seemed, in Churchill's own eyes, to point up the morality of his stand in the 1930s. The West began to oppose Stalin and Communism in a way that it had never opposed Hitler - it was seen to be standing up to the bully, not to be negotiating with him - and Churchill's general view seemed to be vindicated, at least in his own eyes. From 1945 onwards, few cared to question whether this Churchillian refusal to negotiate with Stalin, or any other dictator, actually makes things worse - that would have sounded as though excuses were being made for misrule. And so we have come to our current Rogue's Gallery: Hitler, Stalin, Nasser, Castro, Ghaddafi, Saddam and Bin Laden, all cut from the same cloth, all of whom must be 'stopped' because 'appeasement' is always wrong. How do we know that? Churchill told us so.

The fact that a film has now been made, bringing Churchill's version of events to a new generation, means that people will be able to say that they may not have read the book, but have at least seen the film. Thus will the myth go on into the new century and its millennium. Churchill was certainly right about one thing - history would indeed treat him kindly. In place of the multi-faceted, complicated flawed genius, there would be a cardboard cut-out hero who was always right. On reflection, perhaps that is not so very kind, after all.

So please, Delboy, please enlighten us some more with your endless wisdom and highly skilled research.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/churchill_gathering_storm_05.shtml
 
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Del Boy,

I think I see now why Ollie quotes so many highly selective tracts by his learned "experts".

It is because his own standard of personal knowledge is so poor. It must have really devastated him to see his wildly inaccurate statements so easily pulled to pieces by me (a lowbrow no less).

Ollie's lack of attempted sophistication in that post surprised even me, and I've considered him as a phoney all along. His façade is slipping badly I'm afraid.

"Me,...? I've got nothing to lose, we all know that Spike is only a buffoon who will crumple under the barrage of bullsh1t that he very poorly attempts to pass off as the work of a sophisticated academic.

Having said all of that, I feel that it would be wise for you to be very careful, the "Cigarette Police" have informed me that this man was seen recently in a restaurant near you. He was making enquiries about a certain Del Boy an old friend of the Reich for whom he has several tickets to the latest "Holiday camp" at Mauthausen.

I reckon it's a bit sus' meself.

1174717537504.jpg
 
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Fallacies:


1. "Unlike so many of the pacts and agreements made by Germany that were never honoured".

I only know of one, the annexation of the Czech State. Mind you, Poland and Hungary participated in the affair and got their chunks. It is interesting to note that the British did not abide with their agreement to defend Poland from Soviet aggression. Nor did Britain abide by their agreement to defend France and actually attacked and sunk the French fleet. That makes one German and at least one British example. According to your argument, both are equally untrustworthy.

The Slippery Slope Argument: This argument states that should one event occur, so will other harmful events. There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the first event. For example: If we legalize marijuana, then more people would start to take crack and heroin, and we'd have to legalize those too. Or, in this case, if we allow Hitler to annex the Czech Republic or invade Poland, he will invade Britain.

2. "They were not peace proposals".

Prove it. Don't just give me hollow statements. Or BS arguments like "everybody knows", arguments that would get you a failing grade by a highschool teacher.

Argumentum ad numerum: the assertion that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. For example: "thousands of people believe in pyramid power, so there must be something to it."

3. "Germany had forced Britain to go to war".

We have already concluded that this cannot possibly be the case. Britain was not attacked. British policymakers chose to go to war and could have declined.

Argumentum ad nauseam: This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true, or is more likely to be accepted as true, the more often it is heard. So an Argumentum ad Nauseam is one that employs constant repetition in asserting something; saying the same thing over and over again until you're sick of hearing it.

4. Hitler and Stalin already had a peace agreement.

This comes after the time period we are looking at.

Circulus in demonstrando: This fallacy occurs if you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach.

5. "The truth is that most of the people that were anti NAZI were unable to be assisted or contacted, because they were enjoying a holiday funded by the German people at the new holiday camps at places like Mauthausen, Buchenwald and Dachau".

I guess Stauffenberg & co. were in jail and never tried to kill Hitler. So, too, were the numerous German attempts to contact British diplomats in Switzerland, Spain, etc. This isn't a fallacy on your part, just ignorance.

6. "Even the Russians who treated the Germans with far greater disdain than the other Allies came no where near what you are alleging, and Roosevelt, or the lack of him didn't affect their plans in the least".

Another ignorant comment and not a fallacy. Read: Naimark, The Russians in Germany or Ziemke, The US Army in the Occupation of Germany.

Your Major Fallacy:

Plurium interrogationum: This fallacy occurs when someone demands a simple (or simplistic) answer to a complex question: "Are higher taxes an impediment to business or not? Yes or no?" -- sound familiar.

Other than that, just because you don't know something does not mean you are right.

http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/Occ-GY/
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/assassination_attempts.html
 
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False Fallacies: =The Truth


1. "Unlike so many of the pacts and agreements made by Germany that were never honoured".

I only know of one, the annexation of the Czech State.
How very convenient that you should forget
the Munich Agreement with that wimp Chamberlain of 29 Sept.1938*, and The Ten Year Non Aggression Pact with Poland signed in 1934, or the German Soviet Union Non aggression treaty signed in Moscow on 23 Aug 1939? Obviously history was taught differently at your school.

*The agreement is considered by many as the quintessential example of appeasement. Because Hitler soon violated the terms of the agreement, it has often been cited in support of the principle that tyrants should never be appeased. (Wikipaedia)


Mind you, Poland and Hungary participated in the affair and got their chunks. It is interesting to note that the British did not abide with their agreement to defend Poland from Soviet aggression.
Perhaps they were too busy fighting for their own lives after being forced into war by Germany's invasion of Poland and the Low countries. This was precipitated by Hitler at this time, so as not to give the English time to re arm. This is documented quite clearly in "The Secret Diaries of Joseph Goebbels" and no I don't have it any more as it was stultifyingly boring and donated it to charity.

Nor did Britain abide by their agreement to defend France and actually attacked and sunk the French fleet. That makes one German and at least one British example. According to your argument, both are equally untrustworthy.
Perhaps they were defending the legitimate government of France (who were fighting alongside the British) against the possible forced use of the fleet by the German occupiers. Not so hard to explain if you open your eyes is it?

The Slippery Slope Argument: This argument states that should one event occur, so will other harmful events. There is no proof made that the harmful events are caused by the first event. For example: If we legalize marijuana, then more people would start to take crack and heroin, and we'd have to legalize those too. Or, in this case, if we allow Hitler to annex the Czech Republic or invade Poland, he will invade Britain.
Nobody has the ability to foresee the future, but wise decisions based on past events can be used to avert further tragedy. The proof of this argument was ably demonstrated by Germany's occupation of Alsace/Lorraine, Austria, The Sudetenland, which just happened to take the rest of Czechoslovakia as well in due time.

2. "They were not peace proposals".

Prove it. Don't just give me hollow statements. Or BS arguments like "everybody knows", arguments that would get you a failing grade by a highschool teacher. You think of this as a game. Everytime an uncomfortable truth is told you resort to "Prove it". Hitler's bullying is documented below and is common knowledge.

From: http://www.johndclare.net/EII3.htm
"It is the 1938 crisis that is usually presented as appeasement. In 1938, Hitler got the Sudeten Nazis, led by Henlein, to cause trouble, then he demanded union. But then Chamberlain intervened. On 15 September he met Hitler at Berchtesgaden. Hitler threatened war, but promised that this was the ‘last problem to be solved’. Chamberlain decided that Hitler was ‘a man who can be relied upon’, and persuaded the Czechs to hand over the Sudetenland. But when he met Hitler again, at Bad Godesberg (22 September), there were more demands, and Chamberlain refused. War seemed near, and Chamberlain was not sure Czechoslovakia was a ‘great issue’ which needed war. Instead, he decided that it was ‘a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing’ and, at Munich (29 September), Britain and France gave the Sudetenland to Germany. They gave the bully what he wanted".

Argumentum ad numerum: (get off your "high horse" you're not impressing me one bit, I did Latin too) the assertion that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. For example: "thousands of people believe in pyramid power, so there must be something to it." Not "more", but "the majority" a basic tenet of democracy. I believe that there is not a majority of people that believe in pyramid power. This is how the world works. (other than you of course)
3. "Germany had forced Britain to go to war".

We have already concluded that this cannot possibly be the case. Britain was not attacked. British policymakers chose to go to war and could have declined. No we haven't, that is merely your rather highly "coloured" interpretation. Britain was obliged under her agreement with Poland to go to Poland's defence, the fact that Britain was not prepared for war not withstanding.

Argumentum ad nauseam: (did you swallow a Latin dictionary this morning?) This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true, or is more likely to be accepted as true, the more often it is heard. So an Argumentum ad Nauseam is one that employs constant repetition in asserting something; saying the same thing over and over again until you're sick of hearing it. The fact is the reverse of what you propose. The belief is heard ad nauseam (there you go, do you feel better now) because of the fact that it is the generally accepted truth.
4. Hitler and Stalin already had a peace agreement.

This comes after the time period we are looking at. I believe that the date was 23rd August 1939. That is prior to Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union.

Circulus in demonstrando: (F*ck off, your just being an idiot now, I now that you allege that you are German, so if you can't say it in English, use German) This fallacy occurs if you assume as a premise the conclusion which you wish to reach.

5. "The truth is that most of the people that were anti NAZI were unable to be assisted or contacted, because they were enjoying a holiday funded by the German people at the new holiday camps at places like Mauthausen, Buchenwald and Dachau".

I guess Stauffenberg & co. were in jail and never tried to kill Hitler. So, too, were the numerous German attempts to contact British diplomats in Switzerland, Spain, etc. This isn't a fallacy on your part, just ignorance.

Not at all, the Stauffenberg affair showed the futility of a mere handful of persons trying to change the course of the war from within. Put brutally, they were not worth the effort when the allies knew that they already had the German forces turned around. They were not going to make Hitler's mistake of trying to micro manage too many possibly unsuccessful events.


6. "Even the Russians who treated the Germans with far greater disdain than the other Allies came no where near what you are alleging, and Roosevelt, or the lack of him didn't affect their plans in the least".

Another ignorant comment and not a fallacy. Read: Naimark, The Russians in Germany or Ziemke, The US Army in the Occupation of Germany.
Your initial comment was about Germany being "Carthaged"
Nothing of the sort happened. The general population was not put to the sword nor was it ever mooted in either the literal of figurative sense Yes, the Allied armies siezed much of the remaining German war machine., but "Carthaged"? I think not.
Your Major Fallacy:

Plurium interrogationum: (I give up, let's just conduct this pissing competition in Icelandic or Swahili) This fallacy occurs when someone demands a simple (or simplistic) answer to a complex question: "Are higher taxes an impediment to business or not? Yes or no?" -- sound familiar.

No, but what does sound familiar, is long and involved answers to simple questions, in a vain attempt to show that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong. When the truth is simple, so are the answers.

Other than that, just because you don't know something does not mean you are right.
Or Wrong, and history has proven the views that I hold to be, if not the Truth, the generally accepted truth around the world..

Continued:
 
A Quote from Ian Kershaw. Hitler, 1889-1936: Hubris. New York: W.W. Norton & Company.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From this absurd beginning as a politician, Hitler bullied, manipulated, cajoled, threatened, lied, deceived, and stage-managed his way to become the last chancellor of the Weimar Republic, in January 1933. He never changed much did he. (My remarks in blue) Within eight years of Hitler's taking office, field marshals dutifully followed his orders on when and where armies should move, intellectuals collectively sanctioned whatever insane doctrines he articulated, industrialists hailed him as the savior of capitalism (in a "Socialist" state), and he very nearly won World War II. But less than four years after reaching a height of power matched only by the greatest conquerors in history, his domain shrank to a bunker beneath Berlin's Reich chancellery, an architectural monstrosity designed by Albert Speer, whom Hitler had chosen as Reich Minister for Armaments and Production, in 1942.
And that is just part of the Hitler story. When he committed suicide, the "nobody from Vienna" had finished off a Satanic assignment to devastate and demoralize Europe. Gone, possibly forever, was the optimism of the early 1900s. In just twelve years, four months, and eight days, the life span of the Third Reich, Hitler had eradicated not only optimism but what many of the greatest minds in history had struggled over centuries to create, including those who lived and worked in Eastern Europe's eminent centers of Jewish learning.

Now, Have your last say to me, as I can no longer be bothered expending my glorious "hunt and peck" typing skills on your pathetic attempts at evading the blame. Just count your lucky stars that the Russians didn't end up with all of Germany, you may well have had real cause to have a *****.
P.S. I don't particularly admire Churchill either, but there is no denying that he got Adolph Hitler's measure very quickly, and used it well.
 
Hey swifty,

1. the annexation of the Czech State was breaking the Munich Agreement.

2. Germany rescinded the 10-year non-aggression pact with Poland in Spring 1939, claiming that the Polish-British negotiations released Germany from any obligations. If you actually look at the non-agression pact, the Germans were legally entitled to do so.

3. Britain being "too busy" is still breaking the treaty. What type of argument is that? Perhaps, the "See, I can chew gum and pat my head at the same time" comedy.

4. The Peace Proposals are documented facts. But since you don't have the slightest clue about the history of the interwar ow WWII period, or even what a documented fact is, I'll just keep deflecting your useless rambling until I get bored.

5. Most of the world believes in Gods, that does not make them real. Do you believe in Zeus? Or maybe a unicorn? Lots of people believe in Voodoo. You obviously reject academia. Or logic, for that matter.

6. Hitler did not break the Nazi-Soviet pact until 22 June 1941. And, frankly, I find your raising of the subject bizarre.

7. Your view of Stauffenberg is a cheap way to deflect attention from things you know nothing about. Your knowledge of the anti-Nazi movement within Germany is obviously nonexistent...sort of like your "deep" knowledge of history. Does Canaris ring a bell...or are bells all you hear?

8. The German state of Prussia was "Carthaged"...and more of that was being debated until Truman kicked Morgenthau out of his government for being a turd. Truman said of Morgenthau: "He doesn't know $hit from applebutter". Again, ever hear about the Morgenthau Plan? And, that was just the American side. But since you just make stuff up as you go, I guess not.

9. The quotes you provide are totally off topic and meaningless...as usual. "Oh no, Hitler bullied the Germans. I guess that proves he started WWII"...is that really the best you can do?

Why don't you stick to things you know about, swifty.

History has proven your views, you say. I dunno. I've never had the opportunity of speaking to Mr. History. What's his telephone number? What in the name of all that is sacred are you even talking about?
 
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A Quote from Ian Kershaw. Hitler, 1889-1936: Hubris. New York: W.W. Norton & Company.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From this absurd beginning as a politician, Hitler bullied, manipulated, cajoled, threatened, lied, deceived, and stage-managed his way to become the last chancellor of the Weimar Republic, in January 1933. He never changed much did he. (My remarks in blue) Within eight years of Hitler's taking office, field marshals dutifully followed his orders on when and where armies should move, intellectuals collectively sanctioned whatever insane doctrines he articulated, industrialists hailed him as the savior of capitalism (in a "Socialist" state), and he very nearly won World War II. But less than four years after reaching a height of power matched only by the greatest conquerors in history, his domain shrank to a bunker beneath Berlin's Reich chancellery, an architectural monstrosity designed by Albert Speer, whom Hitler had chosen as Reich Minister for Armaments and Production, in 1942.
And that is just part of the Hitler story. When he committed suicide, the "nobody from Vienna" had finished off a Satanic assignment to devastate and demoralize Europe. Gone, possibly forever, was the optimism of the early 1900s. In just twelve years, four months, and eight days, the life span of the Third Reich, Hitler had eradicated not only optimism but what many of the greatest minds in history had struggled over centuries to create, including those who lived and worked in Eastern Europe's eminent centers of Jewish learning.

What did this lot stick in your craw Ollie, I detect a distinct note of annoyance there. I can't help it that the truth hurts, and I don't give a fig if you believe me or not. It's the rest of the world that you've got to convince and you've left your run seventy years too late.

Once again your answer in point 9 is typical of your bleating, "We were the good guys" It's a pity that no one other than a few NAZI apologists believe you.

As for your last comment, what are you going to do if I don't, Call in the Sturm Abteilung (Jeez, German no less, I'm a real academic). For Christ's sake wake up to yourself, the days of Nazi thuggery are long gone.

Yeah, I know,.... You reckon that it's a terrible shame that the world has moved on. I think you would be better served if perhaps you did too.

The fact is, that the world (including the present German leadership) regards Adolph Hitler and his cronies as a bunch of criminals who bullied and blustered their way into politics thereby precipitating the Second World War. You can argue and theorise all you like, but the fact remains people with your views will either get short shrift or be ignored as the lunatic fringe. The man was a certifiable lunatic and so are his followers. History is my proof.
 
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Sorry, no fear on my part. I was too busy laughing. But, hey, you put new meaning into the expression: "Why fear what you cannot understand"? Your cheap appeal to accusations of Nazism just takes the cake. I'll bet that you don't even know what Nazism was, or Communism, or even Democracy. Here is my guess:

Nazism: "A bad thing".

Communism: "Mr. History hasn't judged yet".

Democracy: "A good thing".

Oh, the sophistication, the eloquence, the attention to detail. Mr. History, or was it Mr. Bubbles, knows the truth. YES! It is Mr. Bubbles' treatise on international relations: we don't need to think about issues because the "people" will tell us the truth. God, I love it.

contents1_r1_c1.jpg
 
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