Napalm the bocage!

84RFK said:
What we often fail to aknowledge is the fact that concentration camps wasn't just a war-time phenomenon, in fact Dachau concentration camp was started in 1933 and contained mostly communists and criminals.
I suppose there was no distinct difference between communists and criminals in those days, or at least people was lead to believe that it wasn't.

Now, if we consider the concentration camp/labour camp system as well incorporated, the camp prisoners deemed criminal/enemy of the state, and the Jews declared criminal or enemies of the state halfway through that process.....would anyone raise an eyebrow if the Jews was sendt to concentration camps?

And if we face our own mirror reflection, can we say for sure that we are any better?
We all know what happened on Balkan during the end of the last century, the Serbian, Croat, and Bosnian people wasn't considered primitive and brutal savages prior to that...
There's an ongoing conflict in the Middle-East, and both sides claim that the other is trying to exterminate them, violation of human rights is standard procedure.
Guantanamo.....need I say more?
My country have a bleak history regarding the treatment of gypsies, travellers, and mentally deranged people, up into the late 1950's at least, and that was well beyond the point when we all knew what happened in the German concentration camps.
And still we kept on doing it.

Ladies and gentlemen, given the specific circumstances and a totally different setting than the one we live in, would we be any better than the nazi's?
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I strongly object to the mentioning of Guantanamo in a thread about concentration camps :at Guantanamo,nobody was beaten to death,nobody was tortured,nobody was murdered,etc.And,those who were at Guantanamo,mostlt deserved to be there .
 
lljadw said:
I strongly object to the mentioning of Guantanamo in a thread about concentration camps :at Guantanamo,nobody was beaten to death,nobody was tortured,nobody was murdered,etc.And,those who were at Guantanamo,mostlt deserved to be there .
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Yup! totally seperate situations. The internees @ Gitmo are Illegal Combatants, members of nationless Terrorist Organisation(s). They should be dealt with the same way Pirates were dealt with in the 'Pirates of the Carribean" Era, when cought they were given a quick Admiralty trial & executed. The victims of the Concentration camps were, for the most part, mearly innocent bystanders targeted by Racist policies.
 
Yossarian said:
What surprises me is that few fail to mention the some 30 million killed under Stalin's rule, many of them killed in failed agricultural experiments and famine before WW ll, or the past and on going mass murders over looked in 3rd world nations in Africa.

You can fight your biology, but you will always lose, people are creatures of habit, greed and lust for power will always wind their way into to human affairs because sadly I am begining to believe we are instinctivly driven to pursue such things.
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I agree, Mao was no better with his dodgy productivity drives either and I don't recall any Russian or Chinese forum members getting asked their opinion of the slaughter that has taken place in their countries. Another thing I find particularly baffling is that it is estimated that between 11 and 13 million died in German death camps yet we only hear about 6 million of them, it seems the rest were unimportant.

I also agree that when we are left unchecked mankind does seem to gravitate towards its basic instincts.

That being said I think it was greatly unfair to ask the question of Der Alte in the first place, to me it falls into the category of things you don't discuss without knowing each other a bit better kind of like wearing an "I heart Osama" tee shirt to a 9/11 commemoration sometimes it is best to say nothing and be left wondering.
 
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Indeed, I do believe such a personal question shouldn't be thrown out so unwittingly about someone's experiances like that.

It's just a kind nod of respect towards a person in question.
 
lljadw said:
I strongly object to the mentioning of Guantanamo in a thread about concentration camps :at Guantanamo,nobody was beaten to death,nobody was tortured,nobody was murdered,etc.And,those who were at Guantanamo,mostlt deserved to be there .
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George said:
Yup! totally seperate situations. The internees @ Gitmo are Illegal Combatants, members of nationless Terrorist Organisation(s). They should be dealt with the same way Pirates were dealt with in the 'Pirates of the Carribean" Era, when cought they were given a quick Admiralty trial & executed. The victims of the Concentration camps were, for the most part, mearly innocent bystanders targeted by Racist policies.
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Gentlemen, your objections was expected, and I mentioned Guantanamo for a very specific reason.
The internment camp in Guantanamo Bay is widely accepted as a neccessity in the war against terrorism, even those of us who question some of the practice there aknowledge the need for an institution like that.
And that's my point here!

The majority of people in the western world agree when we are told that the camp was buildt to detain terrorists and illegal combatants, and as they are declared enemies we accept that they are deprived of some basic rights that most of us take for granted.
Habeas Corpus...need I say more?

Let's call them illegal combatants, but among this group of people labeled illegal combatants and dressed in orange jumpsuits, we will find citizens of several western countries like Canada, Sweden, Denmark, France, and there could be US citizens there for all I know.
And here's the problem, some of them have been deprived of their legal rights for years, before "someone" reached the conclusion that they were in fact innocent, and they were simply released.
What if....one day...it turned out that the majority of them were in fact innocent????

A group of people, looking different than us, of another religious faith than us, of different nationalities, clad in prison uniforms, labeled, herded into camps and locked up behind barbed wire, without any lawfull conviction....
Sure enough, we don't beat them, we don't turn to summary executions, we don't use them as forced labour, and we don't hurdle them into gas-chambers, but still...

What have we learned from the autrocities in the nazi concentration camps?
And regarding the principle, are we really better than the nazi's?
 
84RFK said:
...

What have we learned from the autrocities in the nazi concentration camps?
And regarding the principle, are we really better than the nazi's?
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My friend, in this you have a big heart but a short memory. Have you visited Auchswitz?

The Jews in question presented no threat whatsoever to their state. Basically they were loyal citizens who considered themselves German.

Some were decorated heroes of Germany.
A great many were women and children.

Births were not allowed in the camp and the Nazis checked to ensure
this was adhered to by measuring tots with a yard-stick and if they fell below a certain height they were disposed of. The kids would try to stretch themselves to save themselves.

Gitmo is completely different - deemed a necessity to protect the world from very, very dangerous fanatics, and it is believed that some who have been released still pose a threat.

Auchswitz happened. 9/11 happened. Many such atrocities have been avoided by those who spend their lives doing their level best to protect you and yours.

I must apologise for getting personal, but but on the Day of Atonement in 1943, 23 of my extended family were gassed, aged, women and children,my Grandma's cousins, mostly Dutch - not a threat or combatent amongst them. When I was taken on a visit to the camp by the Poles in 1965 I didn't even know that, but even as a Christian on business in Poland I cried when I stood in front of the ovens with their wheel-barrows
The answer to your question is a massive YES,100%. Forgiveness should be left to the victims; we cannot forgive on their behalf.

And bear in mind that we are still under threat , the threat has not gone away.

That said my friend - HAPPY CHRISTMAS to you and the Forum.
 
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It is time to move on. Nobody talks about Julius Caesar murdering and enslaving millions of Gauls, Napoleon murdering thousands of Turkish prisoners by forcing them to drown lest they be stuck by a bayonet, and then tens of thousands of people in every country he occupied, the Belgian atrocities in the Congo, the Turkish massacring the Arminians, the Americans murdering most of the Indians, even the very civilized and peaceful Cherokees, who were promptly displaced from their land when gold was discovered, the British starving thousands of Boer women and children in concentration camps, the British starving millions of Irish people, the British exterminating indians by distributing blankets contaminated with smallpox, the British allowing millions of Indians to starve in WW II, the Tootsies in Rwanda (where the UN refused to call it genocide, because it would have forced them to do something about it), etc,
 
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Yes thousands of Boers did die in Civilian prison camps run by the British yet as soon as this hit the British press there was a hell of an out cry and heads rolled. It was one senior officer who thought he was doing a good job in making them suffer. There is nothing worse than an armchair warrior seeking glory in his own way.

We did not starve millions of Irish people, there was a potato blight which destroyed their crops, yes more could have been done to help, but millions just up sticks and came to Briton and many other places over the world. Of course there was no hunger or starvation in Britain in those days was there
 
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samneanderthal said:
It is time to move on. Nobody talks about Julius Caesar murdering and enslaving millions of Gauls, Napoleon murdering thousands of Turkish prisoners by forcing them to drown lest they be stuck by a bayonet, and then tens of thousands of people in every country he occupied, the Belgian atrocities in the Congo, the Turkish massacring the Arminians, the Americans murdering most of the Indians, even the very civilized and peaceful Cherokees, who were promptly displaced from their land when gold was discovered, the British starving thousands of Boer women and children in concentration camps, the British starving millions of Irish people, the British exterminating indians by distributing blankets contaminated with smallpox, the British allowing millions of Indians to starve in WW II, the Tootsies in Rwanda (where the UN refused to call it genocide, because it would have forced them to do something about it), etc,
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You cannot look at history with glasses of today.
 
84RFK said:
What have we learned from the autrocities in the nazi concentration camps?
And regarding the principle, are we really better than the nazi's?
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There's a difference between putting someone in prison who might be guilty and released after he is found innocent (or guilty but not able to prove it) and putting an innocent civilian into prison with the intention to kill him. I think that the "nazi" word is used to liberally.
 
LeEnfield said:
Yes thousands of Boers did die in Civilian prison camps run by the British yet as soon as this hit the British press there was a hell of an out cry and heads rolled. It was one senior officer who thought he was doing a good job in making them suffer. There is nothing worse than an armchair warrior seeking glory in his own way.

We did not starve millions of Irish people, there was a potato blight which destroyed their crops, yes more could have been done to help, but millions just up sticks and came to Briton and many other places over the world. Of course there was no hunger or starvation in Britain in those days was there
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The truth is easily twisted, and some (a lot?) writers (authors) do it for personal (financial) gain.
 
Der Alte said:
One in four WW2 casualties was caused by “combat fatigue” For those in lengthy, intense fighting; the ratio was one in two. No more stressful situation exists than combat. Before you are strangers you must kill. Beside you are friends being killed, friends you could join instantly. You are usually exhausted, filthy, and hungry. And those back home will never really understand what you have endured, because of battle’s unique, indescribable horror.

The Germans had recognized by the end of the First World War that combat fatigue was not simply cowardice or a lack of "moral fiber." However, most of the lessons of the First World War were forgotten by the time of the Second World War, and it took some time to relearn them. However, as the war wore on the German brass no longer thought combat fatigue was evidence of cowardice or a pre-war neurosis. It was a wound, albeit an emotional wound and psychiatrists relearned the lesson that combat fatigue was best treated as close to the front line as possible: The further back the patient was transferred for treatment, the less likely he was to fully recover. In many cases, the breakdown was transient, and the victim was able to pull himself through, sometimes with the help of his comrades, without leaving his unit. Such men were described as ”burned out” and even the best soldier will eventually succumb to some form of mental breakdown if he remains in continuous heavy combat long enough.

I do not know where you have the information from, that the Germans just shot them. I do not deny that it did not happen, but not to the extent you suggest. Try to use your common sense when evaluating information. How much efekt on morale would not have if it was the norm.
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Here's my thought on that.

No matter how hard you try to put yourself in the shoes of those who were in combat, if you've never experienced it you do not even come close.

Someone who fought in the pacific died of alzheimer. He couldn't remember anything exept the horrors of combat, they never vanished. Even alzheimer couldn't wipe them away. That shows how deep those scarves are.

I'm very lucky not to have seen combat.
 
Der Alte said:
A victim, perhaps. But also a willing victim.

I have often wondered if I would have gassed and burned Jews if I had ended up in such a place. The more I reflect, the more sure I am on the answer. The shocking truth is yes.
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That applies to all of us. It is very easy to condemn someone. I allway think of this situation: You must kill an innocent civilian, if you refuse you'll get executed. What will you do?

I don't blame you as much as you do yourself. I respect you very much for your honesty.
 
VDKMS said:
That applies to all of us. It is very easy to condemn someone. I allway think of this situation: You must kill an innocent civilian, if you refuse you'll get executed. What will you do?

I don't blame you as much as you do yourself. I respect you very much for your honesty.
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Not just a matter of "Just following Orders" when not following an illegal Order will get you shot now vs a possible death sentence @ some point in the distant future from a victorious enemy.
 
I knew it just had to be controversial, but I still believe that we are unable to compare our present surroundings, and the world we live in, to the lessons we should have learned by history.

I simply can't see any other reason why we (humans) continue making the same mistakes over and over...
 
84RFK said:
I knew it just had to be controversial, but I still believe that we are unable to compare our present surroundings, and the world we live in, to the lessons we should have learned by history.

I simply can't see any other reason why we (humans) continue making the same mistakes over and over...
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Becuase people in power often think highly of themselves and that they can achieve a different outcome...

There is a word for this phenomon but I feel I do not have to say it.
 
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