Napalm the bocage!

[Del Boy]

While true not every ones experiences are the same and as such experience of an event only gives you a very small window of fact on a specific incident.

For example I have no doubt that from his end of the spectrum 4 German pilots shot up a school and I am certainly not going to argue that the event happened but it does not tell you the whole story to get that you need to know what the 4 pilots were thinking at the time of the event.

Far too much of history is taken from the perspective of the last man standing and not does provide accuracy as Bertrand Russell once said... War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

And the one who is left writes the history.

Which is why it is good to be able to refer to experiences of such as Le and Der Alte. Cuts out the middle man does it not. I put great store in such info.

 

[Der Alte]

My apologies Lieutenant colonel, it was common practice in the British Army to address a Lieutenant colonel as Colonel. Old habits die hard, but I will gladly respect your views.

What rank were you when you were captured, and what camp were you sent to if I may ask Lieutenant colonel? I apologies for the questions, but its not often one gets to ask someone who were there.

I was on a number of exercises in Northern Germany when I was in the Royal Corps of Transport Territorial Army as a section commander. I ended up in the British Military Hospital in Hanover with a broken arm and ribs, after trying to jump a ditch with a 10 ton truck. But that's another story.

I developed a taste for Asbach while I were there, I still have a bottle unopened in my drinks cabinet, one day I will crack it open.

No need for apologies my friend, but please let us not be so formal. Just call me Opa (it is the German word for granddad) just like my friends do.

I was a Second Lieutenant (Leutnant in German) and I was taken to Northumberland in England. If I remember correctly the town’s name was Haltwhistle. The camp was called Featherstone Park.

Please ask all the questions you want, there are not many of us around anymore.
Asbach is one of Germany´s most famous brands, enjoy it.

A confusing situation (and period of time) that Siegfried Lenz managed to describe in his short story "Ein Kriegsende".

Yes, it was a big dilemma at that time.

 

[MontyB]

And the one who is left writes the history.

Which it is good to be able to refer to experiences of such as Le and Der Alte. Cuts out the middle man does it not. I put great store in such info.

There are giant flaws in that logic though, there is no doubt having veterans of opposing sides gives two very valuable pieces of the puzzle but unless it is a very small puzzle you still don't get the whole picture.

Both of these people can only provide information relative to their own perspective and situation so if you are asking me whether I would accept Le's or Der Alte's individual views over that of someone that had spoken to 300 Le's and Der Altes in the course of their research then chances are I will take the researched material (this is not to say that either of their information is in anyway wrong but a 300 point set of data is generally more accurate than a single point).

 

[Del Boy]

I do not disagree with any of that and I certainly do not dismiss research etc.

There is in fact no flaw in 'my logic' as I do not suggest sweeping away the accumulation of information, however received.

That does not make any less important the input from those who have experienced first-hand the events in question. I was not preparing a court of inquiry on the issues, merely appreciating the informed opinions of those on the spot.

I cannot understand why you seem to consider this presents any sort of opposition to your stand.

I am not asking you to accept anything at all ; I cannot understand why you seem to be creating an argument where there is none. Am I missing some underlying agenda; if so, spit it out, you won't offend me.:smile:

 

[MontyB]

No argument but I am used to seeing these discussions spiral out of control over the smallest of points.

 

[samneanderthal]

I would like to mention the impressive, though often overlooked number of combat fatigue (shell shock in WW I) casualties in the Allied forces in France. While Germany and the USSR often shot troops who could not fight because of shattered nerves, the allies provided thousands of psychologists and several treatment centers exclusively for that purpose, with casualties exceeding 100,000 and with 88% of the those treated returning to combat.

 

[BritinBritain]

I would like to mention the impressive, though often overlooked number of combat fatigue (shell shock in WW I) casualties in the Allied forces in France. While Germany and the USSR often shot troops who could not fight because of shattered nerves, the allies provided thousands of psychologists and several treatment centers exclusively for that purpose, with casualties exceeding 100,000 and with 88% of the those treated returning to combat.

Many RAF aircrew who suffered from what called today Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (or indeed "Shell Shock"), were branded cowards and LMF or Lack of Morale Fibre. NCO aircrew lost their rank and aircrew wings then set to work on menial work on the station. I have no idea what happened to officer aircrew.

One of my uncles who managed to survive the evacuation at Dunkirk suffered from shell shock, when my dad went to visit him in hospital my dad didn't recognise him. It took a long time for his mental health to improve.

 

[Der Alte]

I would like to mention the impressive, though often overlooked number of combat fatigue (shell shock in WW I) casualties in the Allied forces in France. While Germany and the USSR often shot troops who could not fight because of shattered nerves, the allies provided thousands of psychologists and several treatment centers exclusively for that purpose, with casualties exceeding 100,000 and with 88% of the those treated returning to combat.

One in four WW2 casualties was caused by “combat fatigue” For those in lengthy, intense fighting; the ratio was one in two. No more stressful situation exists than combat. Before you are strangers you must kill. Beside you are friends being killed, friends you could join instantly. You are usually exhausted, filthy, and hungry. And those back home will never really understand what you have endured, because of battle’s unique, indescribable horror.

The Germans had recognized by the end of the First World War that combat fatigue was not simply cowardice or a lack of "moral fiber." However, most of the lessons of the First World War were forgotten by the time of the Second World War, and it took some time to relearn them. However, as the war wore on the German brass no longer thought combat fatigue was evidence of cowardice or a pre-war neurosis. It was a wound, albeit an emotional wound and psychiatrists relearned the lesson that combat fatigue was best treated as close to the front line as possible: The further back the patient was transferred for treatment, the less likely he was to fully recover. In many cases, the breakdown was transient, and the victim was able to pull himself through, sometimes with the help of his comrades, without leaving his unit. Such men were described as ”burned out” and even the best soldier will eventually succumb to some form of mental breakdown if he remains in continuous heavy combat long enough.

I do not know where you have the information from, that the Germans just shot them. I do not deny that it did not happen, but not to the extent you suggest. Try to use your common sense when evaluating information. How much efekt on morale would not have if it was the norm.

 

[BritinBritain]

No need for apologies my friend, but please let us not be so formal. Just call me Opa (it is the German word for granddad) just like my friends do.

Same as Afrikans, I will gladly call you Opa. I am called "Uncle" by many Afrikaners who are somewhat younger then I, but not by the English South Africans.

I was a Second Lieutenant (Leutnant in German) and I was taken to Northumberland in England. If I remember correctly the town’s name was Haltwhistle. The camp was called Featherstone Park.

I have met a few ex German officers here in South Africa, one of which was a Leutnant in the Bundeswehr, we had quite a chat.

Out of interest I did a search and found this:-
http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangene/greatbritain/gb/camp18/featherstone_park.html The site may also be of interest to you as well.

There were a few POW camps in the county of Essex in the UK, the father of a friend of mine was a gunner in the German artillery, stayed in UK after the war and married a local girl.

While on holiday in Austria many years ago, I met an ex German gunner, we sat and spoke for hours. Sadly over the years I have forgotten what little I knew of the German language.

Please ask all the questions you want, there are not many of us around anymore.

Thank you, so many experiences and stories are being lost for ever as the years go by.

You mentioned that you helped build the West German Army, the one thing I cannot understand is, if I remember correctly Germans have to carry out 18 months national service. With the cost of training a man, would it be cost effective, especially today with modern equipment.

There has been talk in the UK for years about bringing back National Service, one of the reasons it hasn't been brought back is the short term a man serves and the cost to train him.

Asbach is one of Germany´s most famous brands, enjoy it.

Thank you, I will. I also developed a taste for German beer, I did enjoy a few Becks Biers.:drink:

 

[MontyB]

I do not know where you have the information from, that the Germans just shot them. I do not deny that it did not happen, but not to the extent you suggest. Try to use your common sense when evaluating information. How much efekt on morale would not have if it was the norm.

I think you will find that the idea came from watching one too many war movies and we all know that the universal WW2 German/Russian cure for everything in a war movie is to shoot it.

 

[Seehund]

Opa.
I would like to ask you a question. Something I've often thought about but never had the courage to ask. I hope that you don´t find it offensive.

What did you know about jew persecution, extermination and concentration camps and what was your position on this?

 

[Der Alte]

You mentioned that you helped build the West German Army, the one thing I cannot understand is, if I remember correctly Germans have to carry out 18 months national service. With the cost of training a man, would it be cost effective, especially today with modern equipment.

There has been talk in the UK for years about bringing back National Service, one of the reasons it hasn't been brought back is the short term a man serves and the cost to train him.

Mandatory service is a very cost-efficient defence solution. Many European countries who have abandoned military service have problems recruiting. But there is no justification for mandatory service where no threat exists. Britain, for example, is not under any threat and there is no evidence that it will be in the near future. The army is capable of carrying out its role and the training of conscripts would only divert its time from more important matters.

The biggest benefit is the social one. It is a significant change from past experiences for young individuals; a shift in perspective that can help them see life differently, inspire them to work harder in the future, and foster a greater sense of purpose and responsibility to one´s nation. Also it is a necessary means to ensure the defence forces maintain a close relationship to civil society in order to prevent a repeat of the way in which the Nazi party was able to manipulate professional soldiers in the 1930s.

When a person is drafted into the military they lose certain rights for a little while, but is that necessarily bad? No. If they have never had their basic rights taken from them they will never place as high a value on those rights, or on the sacrifice their ancestors made to give them those rights. It is a growing problem in America for people to take their rights for granted. Take peoples rights away temporarily and people start to value what they have more; and they start to value their country more.
If you see it that way, then it is for society very cost-efficient in the long run.

Thanks for the link to my "old home"
It brought many memories back.

 

[Der Alte]

I think you will find that the idea came from watching one too many war movies and we all know that the universal WW2 German/Russian cure for everything in a war movie is to shoot it.

Yes, some have to portray the bad guys so the good guys can be heroes. :wink:

Many of the old WWII veterans were furious when the movie Inglorious Bastards premiered in Germany.

 

[BritinBritain]

Mandatory service is a very cost-efficient defence solution. Many European countries who have abandoned military service have problems recruiting. But there is no justification for mandatory service where no threat exists. Britain, for example, is not under any threat and there is no evidence that it will be in the near future. The army is capable of carrying out its role and the training of conscripts would only divert its time from more important matters.

The biggest benefit is the social one. It is a significant change from past experiences for young individuals; a shift in perspective that can help them see life differently, inspire them to work harder in the future, and foster a greater sense of purpose and responsibility to one´s nation. Also it is a necessary means to ensure the defence forces maintain a close relationship to civil society in order to prevent a repeat of the way in which the Nazi party was able to manipulate professional soldiers in the 1930s.

When a person is drafted into the military they lose certain rights for a little while, but is that necessarily bad? No. If they have never had their basic rights taken from them they will never place as high a value on those rights, or on the sacrifice their ancestors made to give them those rights. It is a growing problem in [/COLOR]America for people to take their rights for granted. Take peoples rights away temporarily and people start to value what they have more; and they start to value their country more.[/COLOR]
If you see it that way, then it is for society very cost-efficient in the long run.

Put that way, I understand why you say National Service is socially cost efficient.

My example was monetary as you probably guessed. For example, Britain's RAF National Servicemen serving in the Far East, such as Singapore and Hong Kong. After basic training, then trade training such as aero engine or airframe fitter, then the time spent at sea on a troop ship to theatre, then the time back to UK again, he would spend less then a year in theatre in his trade. In the regular RAF when I joined, certain trades if I remember correctly had a time limit put on them, for example an aero engine fitter couldn't serve for less then five years, a cook or storeman could serve three years. Today however, I have no idea how it works.

I agree with you totally that National Service is a good thing, it installs discipline and pride in oneself. I have spoken to many ex servicemen in UK and the vast majority stated that although they didn't like it, they wouldn't have missed it for the world. In my opinion the problem with much of today's youth in the UK can be put down to lack of discipline in the home, in school and in society in general, something that National Service would help address. However, too many do-gooders poke their noses in where they don't belong.

I enjoyed my service both in the RAF and the Territorial Army, I had a lot of good times

Thanks for the link to my "old home"
It brought many memories back.

It appears that the chap who owns the site is an ex POW.

As an 18 year old Officer when you were captured, I can fully understand why you were rude to British Officers, I've felt like running some of them over myself with a truck a few times.

I am doing a bit of a search to find out what British regiment you were facing when you were captured, I haven't found anything yet

 

[LeEnfield]

I would argue that National Service is a good thing, and I will argue this point from being a former National Serviceman.
Now I had an apprenticeship with my employer and had been studying Electrical Engineering [City & Guilds] which is now classed as a degree. Some person in the Ministry of Labour had not processed my papers so I was called up a few weeks before my finial Exams. Now I contacted my MP who was at the time Harold McMillan and I was informed to sit the exams I would have to sign on in the Army for 11 Years, well you can guess what my reply was.
Now I was drafted into the Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment, the training took 10 weeks to turn you into an infantry man, it now takes six months. Training was hard as they had a lot to do in those ten weeks and after that you could wind up in Places like Malaya, or the near east were there was plenty of trouble and if you had not learnt your lessons it could prove fatal to you.
Now there were men that were called up who were not right for life in the forces or even the boy scouts who would then top them selfs as they could not face it, so it did not do those any good.
After I had finished my training I did not like my posting so I put in for the Parachute Regiment as at the time you had to be a trained soldier before you could apply. I sailed through the P Course and wound up on the going on a world tour as the guest of the queen. I fought in several different countries, and we only got half a Regular Soldiers pay as we were not classed as proper soldiers, we were not allowed the same number of travel warrants as a Regular Soldier, yet alleged Barrack Room damages were charged at the same rate as a regular soldier. When attacks often went in the first one they chose to lead the attack were the National Servicemen as there would not be any pay out on them. In those days you had to be 21 to get married with out written permission from your parents, you could not sign an HP agreement as you were classed as a child, nor could you agree to have any kind of medical procedure even if you had smashed your self up. While waiting to invade one country we were not even allowed to write home for three months, so you soon lost the love of your life and that caused some lads to take silly risks.
Also after all of this many of the returning soldiers [National Service] found they could not readjust to the life they had before. Also when you got demobed you handed in your kit and you were out on the street with the remains of your last pay packet in your pocket, which was never very much and then you had start a new life on what you had in your pocket, there was not help to get you settled or to start again, yet they all got on with it and no ever give them a thought, except the pillocks who think it does you good.
Okay I had a lot laughs while I was in the Army and I made some life long friends, but I often wonder where and what I would have become if hadn't had to go in the Army.

 

[Del Boy]

No argument but I am used to seeing these discussions spiral out of control over the smallest of points.

Good. Allow me to reiterate my season's greeting to you and all on these boards: HAPPY CHRISTMAS.:cheers:

 

[Der Alte]

I am doing a bit of a search to find out what British regiment you were facing when you were captured, I haven't found anything yet

They were from the British 3rd Infantry Division. They had armored cars. I think it was a recce troop. I think I can remember the name Northumberland Fusiliers.
I am far from certain.It was a long time ago.

 

[Seehund]

I would argue that National Service is a good thing, and I will argue this point from being a former National Serviceman.
Now I had an apprenticeship with my employer and had been studying Electrical Engineering [City & Guilds] which is now classed as a degree. Some person in the Ministry of Labour had not processed my papers so I was called up a few weeks before my finial Exams. Now I contacted my MP who was at the time Harold McMillan and I was informed to sit the exams I would have to sign on in the Army for 11 Years, well you can guess what my reply was.
Now I was drafted into the Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment, the training took 10 weeks to turn you into an infantry man, it now takes six months. Training was hard as they had a lot to do in those ten weeks and after that you could wind up in Places like Malaya, or the near east were there was plenty of trouble and if you had not learnt your lessons it could prove fatal to you.
Now there were men that were called up who were not right for life in the forces or even the boy scouts who would then top them selfs as they could not face it, so it did not do those any good.
After I had finished my training I did not like my posting so I put in for the Parachute Regiment as at the time you had to be a trained soldier before you could apply. I sailed through the P Course and wound up on the going on a world tour as the guest of the queen. I fought in several different countries, and we only got half a Regular Soldiers pay as we were not classed as proper soldiers, we were not allowed the same number of travel warrants as a Regular Soldier, yet alleged Barrack Room damages were charged at the same rate as a regular soldier. When attacks often went in the first one they chose to lead the attack were the National Servicemen as there would not be any pay out on them. In those days you had to be 21 to get married with out written permission from your parents, you could not sign an HP agreement as you were classed as a child, nor could you agree to have any kind of medical procedure even if you had smashed your self up. While waiting to invade one country we were not even allowed to write home for three months, so you soon lost the love of your life and that caused some lads to take silly risks.
Also after all of this many of the returning soldiers [National Service] found they could not readjust to the life they had before. Also when you got demobed you handed in your kit and you were out on the street with the remains of your last pay packet in your pocket, which was never very much and then you had start a new life on what you had in your pocket, there was not help to get you settled or to start again, yet they all got on with it and no ever give them a thought, except the pillocks who think it does you good.
Okay I had a lot laughs while I was in the Army and I made some life long friends, but I often wonder where and what I would have become if hadn't had to go in the Army.

With all due respect, it was then. The world has moved on.
This was also the case in the Danish army in the fifties.

Today Denmark has a national service that is up to date.
If are you taking a education you can postpone conscription

 

[samneanderthal]

Hallo Opa, waren Sie an der Ostfront?

 

[BritinBritain]

They were from the British 3rd Infantry Division. They had armored cars. I think it was a recce troop. I think I can remember the name Northumberland Fusiliers.
I am far from certain.It was a long time ago.

Ah thank you Opa.

Le, Before one of my uncles was called up for National Service, he signed on as a regular for two years with the Royal Welch rather then wait to get called up and obviously got better pay.