Israel rightfully own the West Bank .

[RayManKiller3]

U.S is one of the most anti-semtic countries out there however its also run by Jews for a large part, both these things apart i see quite a large support for Palestine in U.S as well.

As for Europe? Europe supports Palestine ideologically but does not care enough to really interfere and its goverments wont do squat because Israel is good business.

U.S is one of the most anti-semetic countries out there? Hard to believe that, most people support Israel way more than Palestine for the reasons I said previously. Your saying so many Americans are anti-semetic yet at the same time is run by Jews? To say the U.S is "run by Jews" is in league with conspiracy theories, and is the reason people are even anti-semetic. I do not believe in conspiracies unless it has hard-core evidence.

If U.S was as anti-semetic as you said, it would not be run by Jews because people would keep those with any Pro-Israel thoughts/policies out of any political position. Unless of course you are exaggerating.

http://israel-commentary.org/?tag=american-people


http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2009_01_11-2009_01_17.shtml#1232071726

[David Bernstein, January 15, 2009 at 8:08pm] Trackbacks
More on Public Opinion on Israel/Gaza:Via Rosner's Domain, the Powerpoint presentation from respected pollsters Greenberg and Newhouse linked on this page has to be pretty sobering for the Juan Coles and Glen Greenwalds who think American public opinion is on their (anti- very hostile to Israel's policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians) side. For example, five times as many people blame only Palestinian leaders for the violence in Gaza as blame only Israeli leaders (55-11); almost ten times as many people (48-5) think only Israeli leaders want peace and are working towards it as think the same of Palestinian leaders; almost seven times as many people think only Israel has moral leaders who work to limit civilian casualties as think the same about the Palestinians (47-7); and, perhaps most tellingly, despite the images of Israeli bombs exploding in Gaza for the last two weeks, almost four times as many people blame the humanitarian crisis in Gaza on Hamas as blame Israel (66-17).
I'm not confusing public opinion with wisdom, though even stopped clocks are right twice a day. Rather, the incessant complaints from certain ideological outliers that American public opinion really agrees with them on Israel, but the "Israel lobby" prevents the politicians from doing anything about it, aren't consistent with reality the polling data.

(I wasn't sure if the link about would take you to it, so I pasted on here. If that goes against any rules tell me. If it didn't take you to it, you would be scrolling for a long time to find the article.)


If you disagree with these news article, I can find others that prove you wrong on how Americans feel about Israel. Do not mistake American opinions for Israeli actions and American opinions for Israel. This is what a lot of people that claims what you just said is getting confused with. Only people who believe in consipracies state the world or the U.S is controlled by Jews. Even if it was, so what? The people are the ones doing the electing, if they are electing Jews, then that is who they are choosing to lead them.

 

[senojekips]

I think that you've all lost the plot. I do realise that a certain amount of explanatory material must be included, but this thread is supposed to be about whether Israel "owns" the West Bank.

I'm dropping out until we get back on to the subject. I also strongly suspect that this thread is being deliberately derailed divert attention from the obvious answer, or to have it closed by the mods for the same reason, as happened in the thread "Israel Heroes or Terrorists"

 

[RayManKiller3]

This thread been off-topic for a long time, I don't suspect it is deliberately being derailed though.

 

[VDKMS]

I think that you've all lost the plot. I do realise that a certain amount of explanatory material must be included, but this thread is supposed to be about whether Israel "owns" the West Bank.

I'm dropping out until we get back on to the subject. I also strongly suspect that this thread is being deliberately derailed divert attention from the obvious answer, or to have it closed by the mods for the same reason, as happened in the thread "Israel Heroes or Terrorists"

The answer to this question was already given. Israel does not own the West Bank but because the West Bank does not belong to any souvereign state claims are disputable. Morally it should go to the Palestinians. Maybe a peace deal for the settlements like the Camp David accords?

 

[senojekips]

The answer to this question was already given. Israel does not own the West Bank but because the West Bank does not belong to any souvereign state claims are disputable. Morally it should go to the Palestinians. Maybe a peace deal for the settlements like the Camp David accords?

In which case you are wrong on a number of counts.

(1). Sovereignty has absolutely no bearing on ownership.

(2). Palestine is an Internationally recognised Sovereign State anyway.http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/states.htm

(3). Palestine is the owner of the West Bank as defined by the International law, and the UN.

CIA The World Factbook West Bank
The West Bank - the larger of the two areas comprising the Palestinian territories. Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/we.html

Israel's "disputation" of these territories has been found by the ICJ and UN to be completely without foundation.

International Law and Security Council Pronouncements
There are about 20 UN Security Council resolutions, not vetoed by the USA, which recite that the territories captured by Israel in the 1967 war are “occupied” and that Israel’s claimed “annexation” of (greatly expanded) “Jerusalem” is null and void. See: here.

The International Court of Justice, in its July 9, 2004, advisory opinion, ruled that the separation wall was illegal and must be removed and that the settlements in all occupied territories were in violation of international law. See here. The pages of this PDF file alternate between French and English. For the illegality of the settlements, see the court’s conclusion in paragraph 120, pp. 99 and 101 of the PDF file:

The Court concludes that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law.
The ICJ quoted the security Council on this issue:
The Council reaffirmed its position in resolutions 452 (1979) of 20 July 1979 and 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980. Indeed, in the latter case it described “Israel’s policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in [the occupied] territories” as a “flagrant violation” of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

 

[VDKMS]

In which case you are wrong on a number of counts.

(1). Sovereignty has absolutely no bearing on ownership.

(2). Palestine is an Internationally recognised Sovereign State anyway.http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/states.htm

(3). Palestine is the owner of the West Bank as defined by the International law, and the UN.
The only people disputing this are the Israelis, who as an occupying force have no legitimate claims to "ownership" under International Law.

1
Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory.
Ownership is the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over property, which may be an object, land/real estate or intellectual property. Ownership involves multiple rights, collectively referred to as title, which may be separated and held by different parties

2 - read the small prints in your link!!
(Palestinian territories and Taiwan are (until now) not recognized as sovereign states, Kosovo is partially recognized by 81 out of 193 United Nations member states. (Aug. 2011)

3 wrong
The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the United States, the EU, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross refer to it as Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. General Assembly resolution 58/292 (17 May 2004) affirmed that the Palestinian people have the right to sovereignty over the area.

It's like I said.

 

[senojekips]

1
Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory.

But has no bearing on Ownership,... please read the title of this thread.

2 - read the small prints in your link!!
(Palestinian territories and Taiwan are (until now) not recognized as sovereign states, Kosovo is partially recognized by 81 out of 193 United Nations member states. (Aug. 2011)

So they are recognised? The fact that it is not until now has no bearing, because of the fact that ownership of territory is not based on sovereignty, as I quite clearly quoted in my previous post. This interpretation is upheld up by the findings of the UN and ICJ, as previously posted.

3 wrong
The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the United States, the EU, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross refer to it as Palestinian territory occupied by Israel. General Assembly resolution 58/292 (17 May 2004) affirmed that the Palestinian people have the right to sovereignty over the area.

It's like I said.

You keep dribbling on about sovereignty which is null and void, as the question is about "ownership". The material I posted was copied from the findings of the UN Security Council and ICJ. In your own post you clearly state that it is recognised as "Palestinian territory occupied by Israel". Occupation gives Israel no legal or moral right to any claims of ownership.

So regardless of your attempted red herrings, Palestine "owns" the west bank, and Israel is only an illegal occupying force, as clearly stated; http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil3f.htm

 

[VDKMS]

But has no bearing on Ownership,... please read the title of this thread.

So they are recognised? The fact that it is not until now has no bearing, because of the fact that ownership of territory is not based on sovereignty, as I quite clearly quoted in my previous post. This interpretation is upheld up by the findings of the UN and ICJ, as previously posted.
You keep dribbling on about sovereignty which is null and void, as the question is about "ownership". The material I posted was copied from the findings of the UN Security Council and ICJ. In your own post you clearly state that it is recognised as "Palestinian territory occupied by Israel". Occupation gives Israel no legal or moral right to any claims of ownership.

So regardless of your attempted red herrings, Palestine "owns" the west bank, and Israel is only an illegal occupying force, as clearly stated; http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil3f.htm

The question of this tread is "Israel rightfully own the West Bank" , it does not say if Israel has the ownership of the West Bank. There is a big difference between owning something or having the ownership of it.

The international bodies give the Palestinians the ownership of the West Bank but up until today they do not own it. They'll have to wait untill their territory becomes a souvereign state.

 

[moshe]

Sin

The whole notion of "ownership" reveals utter ignorance. Israel conquered certain disputed territories in the 1967 6 day war. There's nothing to argue on this point: Israel defeated the Arab armies. The entire absurd notion of attempting to debate whether Israel "owns" the conquered territories totally and completely misses the mark. Israel conquered the disputed territories in a defensive war. Ya snooze ya lose. I realize this is hard for a gent who continually adds 1 + 1 = 3!

 

[moshe]

In your own post you clearly state that it is recognised as "Palestinian territory occupied by Israel". Occupation gives Israel no legal or moral right to any claims of ownership.

WRONG. Post UN 242 the Arab propaganda mill churned out "occupied territories". From day 1 following the 6 day victory over the Arabs Israel has referred to these conquered territories as "disputed territories". That's a fact JACK.

UN Resolution 242 written a one gent in the State Department in the US and submitted by both the British and the French [ those same nations carved up the Ottoman empire post world war 1 ] this document exists as proof of Western imperialist intentions. Israel and Israel alone determines its borders ... not some tin horn imperialists sitting in the Security Council. Why? Simple even for Stooges: Israel is not a Mandate of the UN. Israel is an independent nation.

 

[moshe]

So regardless of your attempted red herrings, Palestine "owns" the west bank, and Israel is only an illegal occupying force, as clearly stated;

Bunk there never existed this non people "Palestinians". Its a myth just like Jesus. Your belief system however fervent can not change a myth into reality.

 

[moshe]

So then what you are saying is that Palestinians do have a claim to the region and have lived there for the last 1300 years at least on land abandoned by their own ancestors?

Pie in the sky ... Pie in your eye.

 

[moshe]

Pollard duh. spy does not equal spies.

 

[moshe]

Israel uses guilt of the holocaust to pressure Western nations into supporting it. But now Israel is brutally oppressing millions of people,

Bunk. The european barbarians murdered 1/3 of the Jewish people in about 4 years for no other reason that they were Jewish. The same barbarians slaughtered hundreds of Jewish communities in Europe over a 2000 year period for the crime of killing god on a stick!!! Bunk on Xtianity and bunk on the cowards who hold Jews accountable to the death of a mythical god but can't swallow the stink of murdering 6 million men women and children.

As far as numbers of death occurring annually in this tiny local conflict ... more people die in traffic accident on Israeli roads than die b/c of the IDF killing terrorists who need killing. Millions of people are dying in wars in Africa and around the world and idiots focus upon a dinky dispute involving hundreds of people dying annually!!! Pathetic.

 

[moshe]

If your country had been under a brutal occupation for the last 60 years

A false basic premise. If the foundation is bad everything built upon this worthless foundation has no merit.

 

[moshe]

Most Americans are unaware of the extent of Israel's crimes because they have some of the best lobbyists in the world backing them up in DC. That's not Antisemitism, that's just the truth.

Bunk. The American political system works around lobbies. Any group can form a lobby. Cowards love scape goats.

 

[senojekips]

The question of this tread is "Israel rightfully own the West Bank" , it does not say if Israel has the ownership of the West Bank. There is a big difference between owning something or having the ownership of it.

The international bodies give the Palestinians the ownership of the West Bank but up until today they do not own it. They'll have to wait untill their territory becomes a souvereign state.

That's a pretty unconvincing try, even for you. Just another failed red herring.

But again, unfortunately you are wrong, because if you do not have legal ownership, you do not own it. You may be in possession of it or you may occupy it in the case of land, but you do not own it. Conversely if you own something, that necessarily implies legal ownership, and you have stated yourself that they do have ownership. That's the trouble with defending obvious lies, eventually you fall into your own trap, things you have already said return to bite you on the bum.

ownership [ˈəʊnəʃɪp]n1. the state or fact of being an owner
2. (Law) legal right of possession; proprietorship

Please provide a credible source for your claim that sovereignty has any bearing on the owning or ownership of territory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sin

The whole notion of "ownership" reveals utter ignorance. Israel conquered certain disputed territories in the 1967 6 day war. There's nothing to argue on this point: Israel defeated the Arab armies. The entire absurd notion of attempting to debate whether Israel "owns" the conquered territories totally and completely misses the mark.

No,... Israel did not "conquer" the West bank, it only occupied it as defined under a dozen or more different international conventions.

ISRAELI VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW​

• Major Legal Principle Violated -
  • Occupation Must Never Lead To Establishing Sovereignty over the Occupied Lands of the Enemy People or Nation.
  • Taking over Occupied Lands in this Way violates the Rights of Self-Determination of the Native People.
• As Per International Law -
  • UN Charter, article 2, para. 4 (1945) (full text) (specific article - see below)
  • Declaration On Principles Of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations And Co-Operation Among States In Accordance With The Charter Of The United Nations (1970), article 1 (full text) (specific article - see below)
  • Hague Regulations IV (1907), articles 43 & 55 (full text) (specific articles - see below)
  • Geneva Conventions IV (1949), article 54 (full text) (specific articles - see below)
  • Geneva Conventions (Protocol I) (1977), article 4 (full text) (specific articles - see below)

Bunk there never existed this non people "Palestinians". Its a myth just like Jesus. Your belief system however fervent can not change a myth into reality.

I certainly agree with the fact that a "belief system however fervent can not change a myth into reality", but where you miss out is that firstly it's not my belief,... this fact is clearly defined in International law, and secondly I do not believe in Jesus, I an an avowed Atheist.

If you can find just one credible source for your assumption that there are no such persons as Palestinians, and if you can further find proof that this would preclude the occupants of the territory from land ownership you might have a point, but you can't as it's already been determined under International Law that there are people called Palestinians and also that they do own the land. Sources have been provided on no less than two or three occasion.

I will not answer any more of your childish denials, unless they are supported by a credible source such as UN security Council or the ICJ.

I might also suggest that if you don't want another rap over the knuckles for breaking Forum rules, that you place all of your points in one post. Multiple postings are not allowed.

 

[VDKMS]

That's a pretty unconvincing try, even for you. Just another failed red herring.

But again, unfortunately you are wrong, because if you do not have legal ownership, you do not own it. You may be in possession of it or you may occupy it in the case of land, but you do not own it. Conversely if you own something, that necessarily implies legal ownership, and you have stated yourself that they do have ownership. That's the trouble with defending obvious lies, eventually you fall into your own trap, things you have already said return to bite you on the bum.

Example: A palestinian is living in his own home. He owns it and has the ownership of it (property deed). Then a Jew kicks him out. Now the Jew owns it (het took it illegally) but the Palestinian still has the ownership. Then the Jew and the Palestinian settle the case and the Jew buys the home. Now the Jew has the ownership (property deed) and owns it (now legally).
I NEVER said that the Israelis have the ownership of the West Bank.

 

[senojekips]

Example: A palestinian is living in his own home. He owns it and has the ownership of it (property deed). Then a Jew kicks him out. Now the Jew owns it (het took it illegally) but the Palestinian still has the ownership. Then the Jew and the Palestinian settle the case and the Jew buys the home. Now the Jew has the ownership (property deed) and owns it (now legally).
I NEVER said that the Israelis have the ownership of the West Bank.

Owww,... that must have been painful. You just shot yourself in the foot.
In the first case the Israeli does not "own" it,... Theft does not give legal ownership. If the Jew buys it, yes he does own it, but this would entail a legal agreement between the two. Your case is purely hypothetical and because as no such agreement has been reached regarding the West Bank, it has not been either sold nor donated to Israel, therefore it is still Palestinian land and they own it.

I realise that English is probably your second language and you obviously have difficulty in understanding the difference between, Ownership and Possession, but put simply. the word "own" implies rightful possession. (not theft)

You can see the difference in the meanings of the two words here.

ownership [ˈəʊnəʃɪp]n
1. the state or fact of being an owner
2. (Law) legal right of possession; proprietorship

What you are talking about is possession, not ownership.

pos·ses·sion (p

-z

sh

n)n.1. a. The act or fact of possessing.
b. The state of being possessed.

2. Something owned or possessed.
3. possessions Wealth or property.
4. Law Actual holding or occupancy with or without rightful ownership.
5. A territory subject to foreign control.
6. Self-control.
7. The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
8. Sports a. Physical control of the ball or puck by a player or team.
b. The condition of being on offense: The home team was in possession during most of the fourth quarter.

 

[moshe]

Israel did not conquer the lands that Jordan nationalized which you and your Arab friends like to refer to Samaria as the west bank. Silly boy your denial of the existence of the 1967 war and the over whelming Israeli victory in that war only proves your have stuck your head in the sand like a bird with long legs. Birds of a feather flock together. A rational mind attempting to logically communicate with a bird brain. What a waste of time.