Israel rightfully own the West Bank .

[senojekips]

My entire point in this Seno, is not to justify Israel's existence. It is to counter silly claims that Israel = world peace destroyer and that it should be abolished and Palestine created.

If Israel never existed in Palestine, the Palestinians would not have been wronged and as a consequence the Islamic world would never have got their knickers in a twist. Tell me how I am wrong.

You can't right a wrong by doing something wrong.

But you can stop a world wide problem by righting one simple wrong, and there is nothing wrong with making the Israelis give up what is not theirs.

I just don't get your theory just because someone has a right to do something, they should do it without thinking of the consequences. This is what I was arguing with you before. You questioned my logic about the right to kill someone for no reason, yet your using the same logic in this scenario if I am correct.
I've got absolutely no idea what you are trying to say

You want to abolish Israel just because you believe Palestinians have the right to the land. This will hold severe consquences

I don't want to "abolish" Israel. It just can't be on stolen land. Once again let those people who feel it is necessary for the Jews to have a homeland donate part of their country. Any consequences of returning Palestine to it's rightful owners will not be anywhere near as severe as the consequences of not doing so. Unless of course you feel that World wide terror is an acceptable price to pay.

If you do get what you want though, then your claims about Al Qaeda should be true too and they will be abolished and the world will be more peaceful. If get what you want, and the 2 things I said do not occur, what will you say then? Will you still tout that the good from the event was better than the consquences?

I admit, Once the genie is out of the bottle it's going to be hard to put him back in, but, if the Palestinians get their land back, the raison d'etre for Islamic terrorism is gone. The people who are behind them will have no cause, and eventually the people in the countries that support them will want them gone.

Also I disagree with the whole "acceptable time so the actions should be excused" which you keep bringing up to counter Israel's right to the West Bank.

It's not my logic, it's International Law.

Also Seno, stop telling people they are deluded just because they don't agree with you.

I never said it because we don't agree, I said it because you made a stupid and illogical suggestion.

There cannot be a "Two State Solution", purely and simply because it is not a solution, in fact it would only inflame the situation. How much simpler can you get? A "solution" involves both parties and your suggestion would only be a solution for one of them, made worse by the fact that it would be the wrong doer who got the favorable decision.

Obviously you have absolutely no sense of history, as I seem to remember another "solution" that was designed to only satisfy one party. I believe it was called by it's architects, "Die Endlösung". It too proved to be very unpopular with the remainder of the civilised world.

Tell me again that you are not deluded...

 

[MontyB]

Someone posted here that the Jews do not belong in Palestine. Its the country for the Palestinians. Now, let's see who did the fighting against the occupiers of Palestine.
In the first century BC the Jews fought the Romans but lost. In 70AD Titus chased the Jews and Christians out of Jerusalem. Palestinians nowhere to be seen.
After the Romans came the Christians (4th Century). The Jews fought the Christians. Palestinians nowhere to be seen.
After the Christians came the Arabs (7th Century). They build the Dome of the Rock ON TOP of the destroyed Second Jewish Temple. Jews and Christians were chased out again. No word of Palestinians.
Then came the Crusaders who occupied it for almost 1 century. Persecutions of Jews went of an on during this period. There were about 50 Jewish communities in Palestine. (Among others Jerusalem and Gaza). Jews fought side by side with the Muslims. No word of Palestinians.
Then came the Mongol raids in the 13th century but the Muslim armies were victorious.
The Turks occupied Palestine in the 16th Century. Sultan Mehmed II ordered all Jews, Christians and Muslims from all over his empire to be resettled in Constantinopel. Later the Turks evacuated the Spanish Jews and some of them settled in Jerusalem and Safed. At the beginning of the 16th century there were 1500 Jewish families in Jerusalem (2000 in Safed). Jews were treaded well in the Ottoman Empire allthough not as good as Muslims. There were only problems with Arabs. No word of Palestinians.
During this period Jews in Arab countries had to convert to Islam. Many refused, massacres followed.
Then came WWI and The Turks lost against the British, helped by Jewish units and Arab Armies. Palestine came under British Mandate. The Jews and Arabs were promised their own countries. Then things started to boil after the Balfour Declaration in 1917. First word of a possible Jewish state. In 1921 followed the first demand for national independence for Palestinians. In 1929 there was the Hebron massacre in wich 67 jews were killed and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked by the Palestinians. It was after this attack that the Jews started to build a paramilitary force and what followed is allready discussed into detail.
So the reason to attack Jews was not land grab, the Arabs wanted to prevent a Jewish state by all means.
In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco.
In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis
In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco
In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania
In 1948 they created a problem by themselves: from 1948 until the early 1970s, 800,000-1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951; and 600,000 by 1972. So the Arabs blame Israel for something they do themselves. Jews never massacred Arabs. Notwithstanding that Palestinians wanted an independent state AFTER they got word of an Israeli one I believe they must get one, but not all of it, because they never fought for it and never had one.

Here is a thought just because something is not mentioned does mean it does not exist.

The crux of your argument appears to be that because there is no Palestinian "race" there are no Palestinians, I would suggest that Palestinian is a term applied to someone living in the Palestine region and are comprised of the remnants of Canaanite, Egyptian, Roman, Syrian, Judea, Christian, Muslim etc. etc. empires that ruled the area in antiquity, just as there is no "American" race it is just a term applied to people living in a region called America.

However I would venture once again to recommend you use genetics to determine who are the rightful owners of the area and I am prepared to bet good money that most of Israel's population have a greater claim to Poland, Russia and Germany than the Middle East.

But then I suspect the silence on the genetics issue is in fact more a concession that the crowd colonising the area are not in fact returning home but rather manufacturing a history to justify actions most abhorrent.

 

[RayManKiller3]

There was a time where colonisation was all the rage in Europe and a lot of wrongs were done during that phase which can not be reversed because of the integration I mentioned above, all that can be done is that the wrongs that are fixable are fixed and the process of colonisation has been stopped everywhere except Israel it seems.

I Agree with this, that countries can not fix it because it is irreversible.


Oddly enough I do sort of agree that in the long term a 1 state solution is the only viable one but in the short term 2 states are needed, I kind of see this as along the lines of post war Germany and how it was divided amongst the allies for administration (think of Hamas, Israel and the PLO as Russia, Britain and the USA) initially you combine the Hamas and PLO areas to form "West Germany" while Israel is "East Germany" then after a few decades of peace you open things up a bit with the "right of return" and then a couple more decades down the track you look at reuniting the East and West.

What it does is allow people to cool down and I think that a few years of peace and prosperity on both sides will alienate the extremes on both sides.

To keep Seno happy this is just a slower version of what happened in South Africa.

Yes I know at this stage it is little more than a pipe dream but given the size of the region involved there is really no way 2 states can survive but in the short term 1 state couldn't either.


I agree with this whole statement completely. A 2 state solution is the only way I think it can work at this moment. When things cool down, then both countries can negotiate things much better.

I agree with you on this. I agree with Seno on a lot of things too, but I just don't see 1 state solution at this time to be something that will work especially considering all the negative actions Arabs are doing towards those they disagree with.

 

[RayManKiller3]

I don't give a fig about Israel's "existence" one way or the other, what I care about is that it has no right to "exist" in someone else's land. If the US is so concerned, why don't you just give them a country. You don't seem to think that it's any great sacrifice for the dirt poor Palestinians to have to make, so why shouldn't a rich and caring country like yours give them a homeland.

We are concerned most definately. I don't see how U.S should be responsible for creating a Jewish state in their lands though. It should be primarily Britain doing such a thing.


You have completely missed my point, I posted a list showing that Zionists were committing acts of terrorism against Palestinians long before Israel was formed, it was they who taught the Palestinians about Terror. As for Zionists denouncing Israeli terrorism I would like to see a credible source. These are the people who always seem to be "sorry" after the fact. They are sorry for everything, but it never seems to stop them from doing exactly the same next time.

Correct, some Zionist groups have been committing terrorism. The thing I am saying though, is that at least some Zionist organizations have denounced these actions. This is the only thing that I want Palestine to do.

Your "denunciations" are no more than diplomatic window dressing, not once has the US ever actually "done" anything. Meanwhile that continue supplying $8million a day and unlimited military aid. That is not even vaguely convincing in fact it would be a joke if it were not so pathetic

Correct, it is nothing more than diplomatic window dressing, but it works to gain support nonetheless. Support is what Palestinians need, so they should do what they can to get it and violence is never a good support gaining solution.


Tell me how it's more unethical and biased than actively supporting a rogue state that has an illegal policy of expansionism of another peoples land, a state who has wiped out more than 320 Palestinian Villages, driven over 4 million persons into exile and continually expands it's borders as provocation, then when the Palestinians retaliate they just claim more land.

Note what I said before up there. People support Israel, but not their actions, but people will support Israel over Palestine because Palestine seems to come up on news with more negatives than positives. Just because you support a country do not mean you have to accept their actions. I support my country, but I will not accept actions I don't agree with.

Not sure where you got your statistics for the 4 million driven into exile BY Israel. It is hard to distinguish who left or was driven out.


What we must do is remove the original problem. Get rid of one and save two. As I said, your actions indicate that you think that it's OK for the Palestinians to suffer but you get very squeamish when others suggest that the Israelis must suffer for causing the problem.

You can't just "remove the original problem" when the problem is on such a scale and has been like this for almost 100 years. This is why I think a 1 state solution will not work at this time. I agree with Monty's perception on it.

They target civilians perhaps because Israel targets civilians. They know they have no chance targeting the military so they get their message across by any means they can, remember the US aid supplied to Israel is the cause of endless mistey for millions of Palestinian civilians.

If you can't win with violence then you can only try to win through peace. Though trying to create peace in a peaceful way is a longer process, it is the best option available to Palestinians.

This is what I said before, they should halt hostile actions so they can gain enough support that will force Israel to the table. Sure it will take longer, but pissing off the only powers that can truely help you, is biting the feeding (or potential) hand. U.S like I said do not support Israel's actions, but they will accept Israel over Palestinians especially considering Al Qaeda (and its allies) is pissing Americans and other countries off.



That is exactly why the Palestinians should not settle for less than complete control of their own country,... all of it. Why should they cave in to the Israelis who occupy their country.

So resorting to such a tactic as killing civillians of not only your enemy, but those who support your enemy? Tell me how will that help them? Americans are prideful, we will not cave in as easily as Vietnam because we don't want another humilating defeat.



So you feel that it is not "too ignorant" to suggest that the Palestinians are "doing fine" under Israeli domination?

No, I am saying that I can not trust at this very moment an Arab majority holding control of government over Jews and Christains in that area. So yes, it is less of an ignorant thing imo.


Where exactly did I mention or even suggest genocide?? Your overt bias is causing you to read things into my statements that are just not there.
You initially stated that it was Jewish persecution that bought about the formation of Israel. I stated that this ongoing persecution must have a good reason because it happened everywhere the Jews went for 2000+ years, and it was often persecution at a state level. Does this not suggest that there is some deep underlying problem with something about the Jewish people? Plenty of other religious groups have suffered persecution, but it never followed them wherever they went. I would suggest that this problem in Palestine is a good indicator as to what those problems might be.

Okay I think I might have worded it wrong. I was not saying you suggest genocide. It Sounded like you were saying the group causes problems. I was stating that such persection is wrong no matter what. I do not and will not lump a group of people like that. I can not see the problems in Palestine as a good indicator either. I don't know what you see in it, Clarify for me?

That is like saying African Americans/Latinos cause problems in the U.S because they have the highest ratios (in accordance with their population) in jail and/or poverty than whites.

Can you tell me why this is so? Is it because they truely are mongering? (this is hypothetical, I don't expect you to actually answer this).


This is tied to my previous answer.Why then does this happen and only to the Jews? But before we go further i think that only one group actually committed to a genuine genocide. Yes, they have often been subjected to State sponsored violence much of it as bad as they now visit upon the Palestinians. Does this make you think?

I do not know why in terms of logic. Because you are not religious, you won't accept any religious theories on it I assume, so I have absolutely no idea.

"as bad" is the words I looked at in your statement. I can not agree to comparing Palestinian plight with the longer and more devastating Jewish one. I however am not trying to use either one of their problems against the other. I do understand Palestines problems, I am just saying that their are other methods that the international community would rather them do before supporting them any further than they already are.


Certainly not the Palestinians. The Brits tried to prevent it, but Zionist terrorism drove them out,... does that answer your question.

I know, I was saying Britain should have given up to terrorism. Not trying to blame them though, it happened and that is all that matters. What we should be doing is preventing any further problems by forming solutions that can actually work.

As for U.S haboring Jewish state, I do not disagree with it, but that would take a great amount of support from the American people. As a joke, I say we give them California XD

I hope the coloring I am picking to distinguish what is mines and Seno's is not bothering any of you who are reading.

 

[senojekips]

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
We are concerned most definately. I don't see how U.S should be responsible for creating a Jewish state in their lands though. It should be primarily Britain doing such a thing.
I never said or implied that the US was responsible for creating it, I said, "if they wanted to support the existence of such a thing, that they donate their own country instead of supporting the dispossession of the Palestinians".

Correct, some Zionist groups have been committing terrorism. The thing I am saying though, is that at least some Zionist organizations have denounced these actions. This is the only thing that I want Palestine to do.

I have no doubt that "some" Palestinians have also denounced Palestinian acts,but what i was getting at was that you blamed the Palis for terrorism without consideration that they had suffered Israeli terrorism many years before the Israeli state was even bought into existence. It's not just a Palestinian thing, it came courtesy of the Irgun and other Israeli terrorist groups

Correct, it is nothing more than diplomatic window dressing, but it works to gain support nonetheless. Support is what Palestinians need, so they should do what they can to get it and violence is never a good support gaining solution.
Well, why do you give window dressing to the Israelis? They are killing far more Palis than the reverse??

Note what I said before up there. People support Israel, but not their actions, but people will support Israel over Palestine because Palestine seems to come up on news with more negatives than positives. Just because you support a country do not mean you have to accept their actions. I support my country, but I will not accept actions I don't agree with.

Not sure where you got your statistics for the 4 million driven into exile BY Israel. It is hard to distinguish who left or was driven out.
It's only difficult if you don't want to find the truth:

Descendants of Palestinian refugees under the authority of the UNRWA are, like “Nansen Passport” and “Certificate of Eligibility” holders (the documents issued those displaced by World War II) and UNHCR refugees [5] are granted the same refugee status as their parent. Based on the UNRWA definition, the number of Palestine refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950[2] to 4.7 million registered with the UN in 2010.

As for your explanation that you support Israel, but not their actions, I would ask, "if you don't support their actions, why in hell's name are you supporting them"? That's like hating the policies of a political party but still voting for them.

You can't just "remove the original problem" when the problem is on such a scale and has been like this for almost 100 years. This is why I think a 1 state solution will not work at this time. I agree with Monty's perception on it.
Of course you can. any problem is only going to be even larger in the future so therefore best we do it as soon as possible. By now no doubt ou will have confirmed my figures for the number of Palestinians who were pushed out to make way for the Israelis, and you will notice that the numbers are almost the same,... about 5 million give or take a few hundred thousand, so no,... it's definitely not disproportionate. As for the solution, we know that a two state solution will never work at any time, because of the reasons i have posted several times, and if ever it was put in place, the Israelis would claim that they then had a legitimate claim to the land, and off we'd go again, so let's just save a lot of political manouvering and cut straight to the chase and do the job properly first time around.

If you can't win with violence then you can only try to win through peace. Though trying to create peace in a peaceful way is a longer process, it is the best option available to Palestinians.

This is what I said before, they should halt hostile actions so they can gain enough support that will force Israel to the table. Sure it will take longer, but pissing off the only powers that can truely help you, is biting the feeding (or potential) hand. U.S like I said do not support Israel's actions, but they will accept Israel over Palestinians especially considering Al Qaeda (and its allies) is pissing Americans and other countries off.
Well violence has worked for the Israelis and you can't use peace with Israel, every time they have a ceasefire, they just use the freedom of movement it gives them, to either provoke the Palestinians, or steal more land. The US hand that "potentially" feeds the Palestinians is a poison chalice, because US politicians are scared witless of the Jewish vote.

So resorting to such a tactic as killing civillians of not only your enemy, but those who support your enemy? Tell me how will that help them? Americans are prideful, we will not cave in as easily as Vietnam because we don't want another humilating defeat.

They don't give a damn for your "pride", they are fighting for their very existence, and losing, because of US policies favoring Israel. That's why the US is despised by not only by the Palestinians, but the whole Muslim world.
The US is the one country who could have ensured that justice was done, and you have elected not to do so. So why should they trust you?

No, I am saying that I can not trust at this very moment an Arab majority holding control of government over Jews and Christains in that area. So yes, it is less of an ignorant thing imo.
Well how can you trust an Israeli majority who are slaughtering people who are trying to do no more than regain their own land. It's not ignorance on the behalf of the US, it's political greed, the only ignorance in this matter is that of the US constituents who can't see through what is going on

Okay I think I might have worded it wrong. I was not saying you suggest genocide. It Sounded like you were saying the group causes problems.

Well, you got that right, I certainly was saying that they cause problems.

I was stating that such persection is wrong no matter what. I do not and will not lump a group of people like that. I can not see the problems in Palestine as a good indicator either. I don't know what you see in it, Clarify for me?

How much clearer can I make it, If you look at this problem, you will find that it Israel and the US support of Israel is the root cause of all the Islamic terrorism in the world today, I have explained this on no less than two other occasions.

That is like saying African Americans/Latinos cause problems in the U.S because they have the highest ratios (in accordance with their population) in jail and/or poverty than whites.

Are you suggesting that as a group they don't cause problems?? because I too would say that any group with a disproportionately high ratio of people in jail are a problem, unless of course you are implying that your justice system is "bent"?

Can you tell me why this is so? Is it because they truely are mongering? (this is hypothetical, I don't expect you to actually answer this).
I've certainly answered it. The answer is about as plain as the nose on your face

I do not know why in terms of logic. Because you are not religious, you won't accept any religious theories on it I assume, so I have absolutely no idea.
Look, if you are going to try to use religion to justify a murderous regime I'm finished with you, that logic is self defeating. I was told that Religion is supposed to condemn greed and murder and such like. Although we all know that it does not, in fact religious groups have been responsible for perpetrating many of the very worst atrocities mankind has suffered.

"as bad" is the words I looked at in your statement. I can not agree to comparing Palestinian plight with the longer and more devastating Jewish one.

I'm not arguing who has suffered "the longest", as it has no bearing on the question whatsoever. I am comparing the treatment dished out to Jews with that which they are now visiting upon the Palestinians.

I would have liked to have imagined that after suffering at the hands of others, the Zionists would have learned a little compassion, but instead that, they just proving tha they are as evil as the worst regimes on earth. Even many Jews are comparing their actions with that of the Nazis.

I know, I was saying Britain should have given up to terrorism.

Not trying to blame them though, it happened and that is all that matters. What we should be doing is preventing any further problems by forming solutions that can actually work.
Correct,.. so you know that a "two state solution" is not the answer,... it can't even be considered as an answer, as it only satisfies one of the two parties. It may be an answer, but it's not a "solution".

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Over 10,000 letters. continued below...

 

[senojekips]

As for U.S haboring Jewish state, I do not disagree with it, but that would take a great amount of support from the American people. As a joke, I say we give them California XD
Well,... my answer is if you are not willing to give up your own land., why do you support a regime stealing the land of another people. I'm not suggesting that you go to war with them,.. just stop aiding them.

Personally i can't understand how the US tax payers allow it to happen.
[/quote].

 

[RayManKiller3]

As for U.S haboring Jewish state, I do not disagree with it, but that would take a great amount of support from the American people. As a joke, I say we give them California XD
Well,... my answer is if you are not willing to give up your own land., why do you support a regime stealing the land of another people. I'm not suggesting that you go to war with them,.. just stop aiding them.

Personally i can't understand how the US tax payers allow it to happen.

.


That is mainly because of what I said above. We don't like their actions, but most of us will support Israel's existence (for those that actually care). As for the rest of America, well everyone is too busy focusing on their own lives and the state the U.S government is in to be worried about opposing Israel in this situation. Because most Americans don't either care or not enough to do anything about it, politicians are able to do what they want on this matter.

You can't stop aiding an ally just like that Seno, it would require support, which America does not have at this moment to oppose Israel. We give aid to many countries including Pakistan, and most Americans don't even like Pakistan! If we did what you said, we would cancel aid to every country we felt violated our principles, I don't think that will do good for national interests. Like I said though, most people here will NOT support Israel being abolished for a dominant Arab/Palestinian state. We are at constant odds with Arabs in this current time, which is why stated if Palestine really want support, they would need to stop the BS they are doing. Not many Americans at this time have any trust in any Arab country.

You can thank Iran, Libya. Iraq, Afganistan/Taliban, and Al Qaeda for that. This is why people will not force Israel, it is not because of some suggestions people have about Jews controlling the world or controlling U.S politicians.

As I answered, I would not mind giving Israel a state of their own, even if its my state. Of course, if I have to move out, I would expect government aid in doing so. The thing is, we (America) do not owe them a state as much as the Europeans/Arabs, after all most atrocities happened in those areas, therefore asking that question holds no true merit for me.

 

[senojekips]

.
You can't stop aiding an ally just like that Seno,

Which raises the question, "Well why are they your allies? if it were any other nation, you would have declared them a rogue state by now and invaded them".

I would not call any country that has led the world into global terrorism an Ally.

.We are at constant odds with Arabs in this current time, which is why stated if Palestine really want support, they would need to stop the BS they are doing. Not many Americans at this time have any trust in any Arab country.

And the reason for that, is because you support Israel's illegal actions in Palestine there's no way you can blame others for Al Qaeda or islamic Terrorism, you bought that upon yourselves by your own immoral actions in supporting Israel in spite of their record of war Crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

[RayManKiller3]

I never said or implied that the US was responsible for creating it, I said, "if they wanted to support the existence of such a thing, that they donate their own country instead of supporting the dispossession of the Palestinians".

Because it isn't our responsibility. That is why we do not have to donate any of our lands. Britain promised a Jewish state, well, the Jews got it now. Because they have it, there is no reason to remove them from it unless someone was able to give territory up.

I have no doubt that "some" Palestinians have also denounced Palestinian acts,but what i was getting at was that you blamed the Palis for terrorism without consideration that they had suffered Israeli terrorism many years before the Israeli state was even bought into existence. It's not just a Palestinian thing, it came courtesy of the Irgun and other Israeli terrorist groups

When I talking about denounciation, I was suggesting a Palestinian organization with some high level authority. I also don't care if Israeli's were terrorists before, I am caring about what is happening now. I am blaming the whole of Palis only because they do not say anything that shows they don't support terrorism.


Well, why do you give window dressing to the Israelis? They are killing far more Palis than the reverse??

Window dressing works if no one can contest your claims. If they denounce these actions, they will get more support, I can assure you that.

So because one person is killing more than another makes them evil? Killing is killing and the strife I have is with what is being targeted. I know Israelis do kill civillians, but so do U.S troops, the difference is I see Palestinians aiming for civillians more so than not.




As for your explanation that you support Israel, but not their actions, I would ask, "if you don't support their actions, why in hell's name are you supporting them"? That's like hating the policies of a political party but still voting for them.

You can, though as silly as it seems, support someone without condoning their actions. You support a politician while at the same time hating their policies... That is usually a case of knowing that the other option is way worse. Even though Obama is losing lots of support, people will still support him over Palin lol for instance.


Of course you can. any problem is only going to be even larger in the future so therefore best we do it as soon as possible. By now no doubt ou will have confirmed my figures for the number of Palestinians who were pushed out to make way for the Israelis, and you will notice that the numbers are almost the same,... about 5 million give or take a few hundred thousand, so no,... it's definitely not disproportionate. As for the solution, we know that a two state solution will never work at any time, because of the reasons i have posted several times, and if ever it was put in place, the Israelis would claim that they then had a legitimate claim to the land, and off we'd go again, so let's just save a lot of political manouvering and cut straight to the chase and do the job properly first time.

Sometimes you need to wait until wounds heal before making decisions such as these. That is is what a 2 state solution can bring.

Well violence has worked for the Israelis and you can't use peace with Israel, every time they have a ceasefire, they just use the freedom of movement it gives them, to either provoke the Palestinians, or steal more land. The US hand that "potentially" feeds the Palestinians is a poison chalice, because US politicians are scared witless of the Jewish vote.

Violence only worked for Israel because of what you stated before. Britain did not feel like they had enough support to fight the terrorists.

U.S do give Palestinians aid (of course not as much as Israel though). If Palestine did things peacefully, I believe that more people will want them to freeze settlement building until negotiations start/end.


They don't give a damn for your "pride", they are fighting for their very existence, and losing, because of US policies favoring Israel. That's why the US is despised by not only by the Palestinians, but the whole Muslim world.
The US is the one country who could have ensured that justice was done, and you have elected not to do so. So why should they trust you?

We favor Israel because the other options we feel is worse and logically stupid to take part in. Remember what I said, Arabs and U.S not on good terms. A politicians would have risk his reputation and his position to support Arabs.

One is suppose to know their enemy and respect their enemy so that one day that enemy might be a friend. Example is Britain, USA, and Canada. Aiming for non-combatants is not repecting an enemy and will gain nothing but contempt.

I know they dislike us a good deal, but if it they continue like this nothing will change for years.


Well how can you trust an Israeli majority who are slaughtering people who are trying to do no more than regain their own land. It's not ignorance on the behalf of the US, it's political greed, the only ignorance in this matter is that of the US constituents who can't see through what is going on

I already answered this. People feel like it is a lesser evil to have Israel than Palestine, becuase of no trust in it. They may be "slaughtering" people, but how much will Palestine with an Arab majority will "slaughter" if they were in control. This is the very big question with a huge alarm sign on it for us. The risks are great with Palestinian control over 5 million jews

Well, you got that right, I certainly was saying that they cause problems.

Well there you go, I won't agree on that mentality. Just too stereotypical for me.


How much clearer can I make it, If you look at this problem, you will find that it Israel and the US support of Israel is the root cause of all the Islamic terrorism in the world today, I have explained this on no less than two other occasions.

lol their existence alone is a problem for them, well then I tell those who are so threatened by Israel to the extent of killing civillians to grow up. I will hold no fear and violence will not make me budge.



Are you suggesting that as a group they don't cause problems?? because I too would say that any group with a disproportionately high ratio of people in jail are a problem, unless of course you are implying that your justice system is "bent"?

No, not implying the justice system is at fault. Just the system(s) which keeps these two groups in such a state. My point though, is I won't condemn the whole group for the actions of the minority. That the group as a whole is not a problem.

I've certainly answered it. The answer is about as plain as the nose on your face

Seems your answer was yes, I can not agree with this. It is poverty levels that keep them down in this state. I won't call them the problem itself.

Look, if you are going to try to use religion to justify a murderous regime I'm finished with you, that logic is self defeating. I was told that Religion is supposed to condemn greed and murder and such like. Although we all know that it does not, in fact religious groups have been responsible for perpetrating many of the very worst atrocities mankind has suffered.

No you missed it. I was stating that maybe religion is the only answer to why Jews are held with this mindset. Why they are hated so much? Religion do condemn greed and murder, its just impossible for humans to follow it. Whatever though.



Correct,.. so you know that a "two state solution" is not the answer,... it can't even be considered as an answer, as it only satisfies one of the two parties. It may be an answer, but it's not a "solution".

Disagree completely, I already stated why.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Over 10,000 letters. continued below...

I didn't feel like responding to all of this, as I know you will just disagree and repond back.

I am about to call it quits, as we will just have to agree to disagree soon.

 

[VDKMS]

Here is a thought just because something is not mentioned does mean it does not exist.

The crux of your argument appears to be that because there is no Palestinian "race" there are no Palestinians, I would suggest that Palestinian is a term applied to someone living in the Palestine region and are comprised of the remnants of Canaanite, Egyptian, Roman, Syrian, Judea, Christian, Muslim etc. etc. empires that ruled the area in antiquity, just as there is no "American" race it is just a term applied to people living in a region called America.

However I would venture once again to recommend you use genetics to determine who is the rightful owners of the area and I am prepared to bet good money that most of Israel's population have a greater claim to Poland, Russia and Germany than the Middle East.

But then I suspect the silence on the genetics issue is in fact more a concession that the crowd colonising the area are not in fact returning home but rather manufacturing a history to justify actions most abhorrent.

I agree with you, but not fully. The people who lived in Palestine (before 20th century) didn't call themselves Palestinians. The Arabs living in Palestine were also not as organized as the Jews. They began using the word Palestinians in 1921 after starting to organize themselves and to demand a Palestinian State in respond to the first Balflour letter of 1917.
And here comes a paradox , according to DNA studies the Palestinians are descendants of jews and christians who converted to Islam in the 7th century.(study by Nebel). Also according to genetic studies are almost all jews, wherever they live, paternal related to the ones who lived in the Middle-East. This should not come as a surprise, because it is a very closed society. They do not marry often non-jews.

 

[MontyB]

So then what you are saying is that Palestinians do have a claim to the region and have lived there for the last 1300 years at least on land abandoned by their own ancestors?

 

[VDKMS]

So then what you are saying is that Palestinians do have a claim to the region and have lived there for the last 1300 years at least on land abandoned by their own ancestors?

Well , that's a very good one. Yes, they do. I was surprised to find out that in fact it is a "family affair", although far related. The Quartet solution might be the best possible way to peace after all. And if the Arab nations would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement then maybe Israel will be inclined to give the settlements up. They did it before (Camp David accords). On the other hand, it's a difficult time now with all the Arab revolutions to predict the best moves. If the democrats (secular and muslim) can hold the fundamentalists at bay then I think peace can be achieved. If the fundamentalists win then the fuse of the middle east bomb is lit.

 

[senojekips]

I never said or implied that the US was responsible for creating it, I said, "if they wanted to support the existence of such a thing, that they donate their own country instead of supporting the dispossession of the Palestinians".

Because it isn't our responsibility. That is why we do not have to donate any of our lands. Britain promised a Jewish state, well, the Jews got it now. Because they have it, there is no reason to remove them from it unless someone was able to give territory up.
Nor is it the responsibility of the palestinians to give up their land, so any way you look at it the Brits made a promise that they had no right to. Therefore the Israelis are occupying the area illegally, You may well remember that they also promised the same land to the Palestinians first at least that decision had some legallity as it displaced no one.

When I talking about denounciation, I was suggesting a Palestinian organization with some high level authority. I also don't care if Israeli's were terrorists before, I am caring about what is happening now. I am blaming the whole of Palis only because they do not say anything that shows they don't support terrorism.
Yes, we've seen all of the jewish denunciations and apologies, none of which have ever beeen believable as the do exactly the same again as soon as possible,... then apologise again, Like the thug who beats you up, apologises and does it again and again so Your Jewish denunciations count for absolutely nothing.

Window dressing works if no one can contest your claims. If they denounce these actions, they will get more support, I can assure you that.

No. window dressing is seen as that, people are not as stupid as you might think.

So because one person is killing more than another makes them evil? Killing is killing and the strife I have is with what is being targeted. I know Israelis do kill civillians, but so do U.S troops, the difference is I see Palestinians aiming for civillians more so than not.

The difference is that the Israelis do it deliberately. I must admit that as they are coming to realise that they are often caught out now with modern camera phones, they are a lot more cautious about it.

You can, though as silly as it seems, support someone without condoning their actions. You support a politician while at the same time hating their policies... That is usually a case of knowing that the other option is way worse. Even though Obama is losing lots of support, people will still support him over Palin lol for instance.
I will concede your point here, although I still despise your decision as it is legally and morally reprehensible.

Sometimes you need to wait until wounds heal before making decisions such as these. That is is what a 2 state solution can bring.

Well spitting in the face of one of the two parties is not going to heal any wounds and this is where your idea crashes and burns.

Violence only worked for Israel because of what you stated before. Britain did not feel like they had enough support to fight the terrorists.

I'm talking about for the last 100 years, not merely 1947. You must remember that Israeli terrorism started in the early 1900s and continues to this day.

U.S do give Palestinians aid (of course not as much as Israel though). If Palestine did things peacefully, I believe that more people will want them to freeze settlement building until negotiations start/end.

As I have said on several occasions the Palestinians have agreed to ceasefires on many occasions only to have the Israelis take advantage , usually by provoking the palis with blockades and heavy handed policing. As was the case in Gaza 2008. Every tme they have said they will stop settlements it has come to nothing if anything it increases at these times under the "ceasefire

We favor Israel because the other options we feel is worse and logically stupid to take part in. Remember what I said, Arabs and U.S not on good terms. A politicians would have risk his reputation and his position to support Arabs.

The logic of doing the right thing is never stupid. As I said the fact that the Arab woorld and the US are not on good terms is all your own doing, if you supported ceased supporting Israel the world problem of Global Islamic terror would lose it's reason for being.

One is suppose to know their enemy and respect their enemy so that one day that enemy might be a friend. Example is Britain, USA, and Canada. Aiming for non-combatants is not repecting an enemy and will gain nothing but contempt.

I love the way you always come back to blaming the palis for killing non combatants completely ignoring the fact that The Israelis actively kill far more Palestinian non combatants than the reverse

I know they dislike us a good deal, but if it they continue like this nothing will change for years.

And yet you feel that by actively supporting their aggressors you will gain their trust,.... I can't understand your logic there.

I already answered this. People feel like it is a lesser evil to have Israel than Palestine, becuase of no trust in it. They may be "slaughtering" people, but how much will Palestine with an Arab majority will "slaughter" if they were in control. This is the very big question with a huge alarm sign on it for us. The risks are great with Palestinian control over 5 million jews

No worse than the Israelis with control over the Palestinians. sure, there will be retributions just as there were in Germany after the death camps were freed, I'd suggest that all those who have committed War Crimes, and Crimes against humanity flee to some friendly country. This will minimise any retribution.

Well there you go, I won't agree on that mentality. Just too stereotypical for me.

So my views are stereotypical yet yours on the Palis are not.?

lol their existence alone is a problem for them, well then I tell those who are so threatened by Israel to the extent of killing civillians to grow up. I will hold no fear and violence will not make me budge.

Did you ever stop to think that the Palestinians might see it exactly the same way and they have right on their side. Once again you seem to imply that the Palis are to blame for civillian deaths when in fact the Israelis have been doing it for longer and have a far worse record.

No, not implying the justice system is at fault. Just the system(s) which keeps these two groups in such a state. My point though, is I won't condemn the whole group for the actions of the minority. That the group as a whole is not a problem.

You seem to be very willing to blame the arab world for the actions of their minority??

Seems your answer was yes, I can not agree with this. It is poverty levels that keep them down in this state. I won't call them the problem itself.

I can agree with this to a point, but you must look far deeper, why are they suffering the poverty.

No you missed it. I was stating that maybe religion is the only answer to why Jews are held with this mindset. Why they are hated so much? Religion do condemn greed and murder, its just impossible for humans to follow it. Whatever though.

You have it right as far as I'm concerned it is largely religion that is the cause of their problems. Not to put too fine a point on it, obviously there is something deep in the Jewish psyche that just get's up peoples noses. I'd say it's time they learned to behave (as a religious group) in a manner that is acceptable to virtually all others in the world.. Yes I do realise that they have provided the world wih many of it's greatestscholars and philanthropists, but as a group they are just "toxic" there's no other description that will suffice

I didn't feel like responding to all of this, as I know you will just disagree and repond back.

You bet I'll disagree, As yet, I've never found a good substitute for morallity.

 

[VDKMS]

Nice article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/view-from-jerusalem-with-harriet-sherwood/2011/oct/14/israel-palestinian-territories

 

[Panzercracker]

There wouldn't be so much support for the Israeli's

Buddy you're living on another planet or something? Europeans, ones that care about politics anyway generally don't like Israel and last i checked the only country that openly and actively supports Israel is USA.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Nor is it the responsibility of the palestinians to give up their land, so any way you look at it the Brits made a promise that they had no right to. Therefore the Israelis are occupying the area illegally, You may well remember that they also promised the same land to the Palestinians first at least that decision had some legallity as it displaced no one.

I am not contesting whether or not it was legal on anyone's side. I am saying that it is done and doing the same thing will have the same results.

Your idea is similar to the one in Rwanda. It might cause the same results. I do not agree with this due to it being too risky and immoral.



Yes, we've seen all of the jewish denunciations and apologies, none of which have ever beeen believable as the do exactly the same again as soon as possible,... then apologise again, Like the thug who beats you up, apologises and does it again and again so Your Jewish denunciations count for absolutely nothing.

This actually does work.


No. window dressing is seen as that, people are not as stupid as you might think.


You overestimate the average voter, Seno. Most voters will not see through this, or will have no real reason to not believe it as long as the Palestinians make it uncontestable. However, I would like for them to be serious and honest in denouncing terrorist actions

The difference is that the Israelis do it deliberately. I must admit that as they are coming to realise that they are often caught out now with modern camera phones, they are a lot more cautious about it.


....Anyone can claim whether something is deliberate. The thing is it needs incredible proof. Therefore, most reasonable people will not agree that Israel is killing civillians purposely. This is like saying U.S came over to Iraq just for oil. it has incredible belief in it, but oil never got cheaper nor did it enrich the U.S's treasury, in fact it did the opposite.


I will concede your point here, although I still despise your decision as it is legally and morally reprehensible.


Don't mistake my beliefs on it withthe majority of others. I agree with what you say, on most counts like I keep saying. I only disagree with your resolutions to the region. When I argue with you about Palistinians needing support it isn't just my view. When I suggest this stuff, I am trying to take a political stance which is the only way Palestinians can get enough support for a Palestine state.


Well spitting in the face of one of the two parties is not going to heal any wounds and this is where your idea crashes and burns.


You just contradicted yourself. If you go with a one state solution at this moment you will spit on the face of whoever you decide not to give a state to. Your just choosing who's face you want to spit on.



I'm talking about for the last 100 years, not merely 1947. You must remember that Israeli terrorism started in the early 1900s and continues to this day.


I see your point, but that is the problem. You can't justify problems because others have done it as well. This is what causes religion to go horrible as well. Because people want to go back in the past and avenge it.



As I have said on several occasions the Palestinians have agreed to ceasefires on many occasions only to have the Israelis take advantage , usually by provoking the palis with blockades and heavy handed policing. As was the case in Gaza 2008. Every tme they have said they will stop settlements it has come to nothing if anything it increases at these times under the "ceasefire


Israel may have provoked it, but who do you think the average foriegner will see on t.v as the bad guys. A country provoking problems by settlement building or some organization blowing up civillians.



The logic of doing the right thing is never stupid. As I said the fact that the Arab woorld and the US are not on good terms is all your own doing, if you supported ceased supporting Israel the world problem of Global Islamic terror would lose it's reason for being.


I worded that wrong as well. I didn't mean to call doing the right thing stupid, I was saying it was a bad idea for politicians. Causing problems to settle problems don't go well.



I love the way you always come back to blaming the palis for killing non combatants completely ignoring the fact that The Israelis actively kill far more Palestinian non combatants than the reverse


I already answered this above. I am not blaming them, I am saying this is what the average person see. Not everyone looks into this as deep as us on this board, Seno. In fact we are the minority in who actually research this.



And yet you feel that by actively supporting their aggressors you will gain their trust,.... I can't understand your logic there.


No, I understand their view, but they must also look at our view. The world changed, it will not be swayed with violence as it used to be. Vietnam proved that you can't win hearts by using nothing but force.




No worse than the Israelis with control over the Palestinians. sure, there will be retributions just as there were in Germany after the death camps were freed, I'd suggest that all those who have committed War Crimes, and Crimes against humanity flee to some friendly country. This will minimise any retribution.


Tell me how you believe the retributions will be small. The retribution they got from Germany wasn't much. Only those who committed war crimes were subjected to persecution, this was with the help of the allied forces. It would require a lot of help from the U.N to keep something drastic from happening in the region, something the U.N can not truely give at this moment. There is a difference between the U.N of WW2 and the U.N we now see. I do not think the U.N as it is today (especially because it is over-reliant on the U.S and so is NATO) can actually prevent anything from happening in the region.



So my views are stereotypical yet yours on the Palis are not.?



Theses views are held by most of the people who watch news (in the U.S). I am trying to convince you why a Palestinian state only will not work. It lacks support and is too risky at this apparent time. Your views for a Palestinian state with Israel's abolishment in that area are in the minority. I refrain from calling any of my arguements my own thoughts, I am stating the thoughts of others to argue why it won't and shouldn't happen.


I will tell you my personal thoughts so you won't mistake me:

I believe Palestine authorities should denounce and charge those acting in terrorism while stating its on behalf of Palestine. The terrorist hurt Palestines efforts more than help it.

I do not believe in a 1 state solution at this time. Too risky for me to believe will work.

Those are my only personal thoughts that I cause me to disagree with you. I already know Israel is not a goody-goody, I am just saying that I will prefer less evil than more of it. I also do not want terrorist to believe that their ways will cause people to budge.


Did you ever stop to think that the Palestinians might see it exactly the same way and they have right on their side. Once again you seem to imply that the Palis are to blame for civillian deaths when in fact the Israelis have been doing it for longer and have a far worse record.


Again, it is who they are targeting that the world is seeing more than the Israeli's civillian death counts. People will be annoyed about civillian casulties, but more people will be pissed off when the civillians are the one PURPOSELY being targeted. I also told you, I don't go into the past to blame someone for something. Therefore, I will not blame Israel for Irgun, as the official Israeli forces actually denounced them. This may seem like diplomatic pudding, but I am telling you, it actually works.

Ran out of characters lol, see my next post.

 

[RayManKiller3]

You seem to be very willing to blame the arab world for the actions of their minority??



No, it is not me that is blaming them, it is majority of the people. No one is going to trust Arabs at the current moment, especially Americans. Go on any American dominant forum and discuss with them about the standing of Arab nations to them; they will blast it. I am not sure how other countries stand with this, but I know U.S has one of the most influential politics in the world at this moment. It is very difficult to do anything that U.S can't stop (except for nations with nukes).



I can agree with this to a point, but you must look far deeper, why are they suffering the poverty.



Well, I already know why they are suffering poverty, but this is off-topic. I was just demonstrating my points with a similar scenario.





You have it right as far as I'm concerned it is largely religion that is the cause of their problems. Not to put too fine a point on it, obviously there is something deep in the Jewish psyche that just get's up peoples noses. I'd say it's time they learned to behave (as a religious group) in a manner that is acceptable to virtually all others in the world.. Yes I do realise that they have provided the world wih many of it's greatestscholars and philanthropists, but as a group they are just "toxic" there's no other description that will suffice



I have no qualms with this statement.


You bet I'll disagree, As yet, I've never found a good substitute for morallity.

Okay, here is my response. Remember, Seno, there is a difference between us and those who don't research it except with the news they hear on t.v and see on newspapers and news articles. Those who do not research this region, are in the majority and what they see on these related news efforts, is what they will use to take their positions on this issue.

The only disagreement between us personally is the resolution. I have told you what I believe the Palestinians need to do to gain support. Everyone have their own lives to worry about, because of this, they aren't trying to do much to aid the region to peace. This is why Palestine need to grow up and do what they can to get support, because the world don't need Palestine, Palestine needs the world.

 

[VDKMS]

Buddy you're living on another planet or something? Europeans, ones that care about politics anyway generally don't like Israel and last i checked the only country that openly and actively supports Israel is USA.

Europe likes Israel, but they don't like the way they handle the Palestinian problem. Europa also has a quite large Arab minority (in Belgium we call them muslims) and allmost every European country has a anti-muslim political party. If things should get out of control in the Middle-East then Europe will be hard pressed to choose Israels side and they propably will.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Buddy you're living on another planet or something? Europeans, ones that care about politics anyway generally don't like Israel and last i checked the only country that openly and actively supports Israel is USA.

Pay attention too all my writing please. I stated that I am speaking on behalf of the U.S people and the reason why Palestine do not have support from the U.S, which not trying to be biased, is the most needed support for Palestine (imo).

It is hard for any country to support a country which openly demonstrates and supports terrorism. Hamas is on the terrorist list, this isn't helping them.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I see two different things with Europe. Europeans want to help Palestine, but won't help them for whatever reason; They support Israel more than palestine due to terrorists, but so so silently due to fear of terrorism; Those that actually care about Palestine is in the minority. Because I am not an expert on European poltics in this day's world, please enlighten me in why Europe can not help Palestine more.

Also don't forget, the Palestinian statehood bid won't work. Why would it not work? It is predicted that many countries will stay out of trying to backdoor Israel, so Palestine will negotiate directly with Israel. Now, if so many Eurpeans support Palestine, why is it predicted that it will NOT go through, even if U.S did not veto it?







Sorry for the triple post guys

 

[Panzercracker]

Pay attention too all my writing please. I stated that I am speaking on behalf of the U.S people and the reason why Palestine do not have support from the U.S, which not trying to be biased, is the most needed support for Palestine (imo).

U.S is one of the most anti-semtic countries out there however its also run by Jews for a large part, both these things apart i see quite a large support for Palestine in U.S as well.

As for Europe? Europe supports Palestine ideologically but does not care enough to really interfere and its goverments wont do squat because Israel is good business.