Israel is at war

[lljadw]

One can never equalize Hamas and Israel :Israel knows very well what Hamas wants = a new Holocaust and the anti-Semites in the West who are criticizing Israel do the same as the anti-Semites in WW2 who refused to bomb Auschwitz .
Israel has no friends, its only ally is its nuclear weapons .

 

[MontyB]

One can never equalize Hamas and Israel :Israel knows very well what Hamas wants = a new Holocaust and the anti-Semites in the West who are criticizing Israel do the same as the anti-Semites in WW2 who refused to bomb Auschwitz .
Israel has no friends, its only ally is its nuclear weapons

So how many women, children and elderly non Hamas members should Israel be able to kill per actual Hamas member, care to give me a number?
To date I have seen no one anywhere in the western world criticizing Israel for killing Hamas but they are not impressed by the thousands of non-combatants being killed.

 

[Tuan]

I agree with Monty 100%. If one can never equalize Hamas and Israel, then Israel must live up to the standards of international humanitarian law.

First, it is imperative to establish a brief understanding of terrorism. Terrorism, akin to ideologies such as communism, nazism, and fascism, is the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, to pursue political aims (Cohen et al., 2018, p. 142).

Second, it is crucial to define "framing," which can be described as follows: "To frame is to select some aspects of a perceived reality and make them more salient in a communicating text, in such a way as to promote a particular problem definition, causal interpretation, moral evaluation, and treatment recommendation for the item described."(Entman, 1993, p. 52).

Third, it is essential to recognize that the mainstream media's definition of terrorism is fundamentally flawed. During the post-9/11 period, American-led NATO forces combated terrorist groups such as Hezbollah, al Qaeda, and the Taliban. In contrast, Russia and Iran sponsored Hezbollah and the Taliban. Similarly, Pakistan supported al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan to destabilize regional powers politically, economically, and militarily. The United States supported anti-Baathist groups in Iraq and Syria, while Russia supported opposition groups in the broader Middle Eastern region (Waldman, 2010, p. 11).

Fourth, today, we see Iran sponsoring Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Islamic Jihadists in Syria, and the Houthis in Yemen. Israel frames them as terrorists because these organizations target innocent Jews in Israel. This context highlights the complexity of defining terrorism, as what may be considered a terrorist group by one nation-state can be a legitimate entity for another; in other words, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter (Byman, 2023, p. 101).

In conclusion, if we view this dilemma through the preceding lens, contrary to the mainstream media's narrative, the definition of terrorism must simply be considered by traditional counterterrorist orthodoxy. In other words, if Israel is deliberately targeting innocent Palestinian civilians, then it must be viewed through the lens of state terrorism, not war crimes, resulting in the adoption of specific narratives stemming from the media's framing of terrorism. Therefore, Hamas and Israel are, regrettably, the two sides of the same coin.

Works Cited​

Byman, Daniel. “How to Think About State Sponsorship of Terrorism.” Survival (London), vol. 65, no. 4, 2023, pp. 101–22, https://doi.org/10.1080/00396338.2023.2239060.

Cohen, Shuki J., et al. “Al-Qaeda’s Propaganda Decoded: A Psycholinguistic System for Detecting Variations in Terrorism Ideology.” Terrorism and Political Violence, vol. 30, no. 1, 2018, pp. 142–71, https://doi.org/10.1080/09546553.2016.1165214.

Dekel, Udi, et al. “Mapping the Non-State Actors in Syria and Their Attitudes toward Israel.” Syria’s New Map and New Actors: Challenges and Opportunities for Israel, Institute for National Security Studies, 2016, pp. 25–50. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep17013.6.

Entman, Robert M. “Framing: Toward Clarification of a Fractured Paradigm.” Journal of Communication, vol. 43, no. 4, 1993, pp. 51–58, https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1460-2466.1993.tb01304.x.

Waldman, Matt. The sun in the sky: the relationship between Pakistan's ISI and Afghan insurgents. Harvard University, 2010.

 

[MontyB]

In conclusion, if we view this dilemma through the preceding lens, contrary to the mainstream media's narrative, the definition of terrorism must simply be considered by traditional counterterrorist orthodoxy. In other words, if Israel is deliberately targeting innocent Palestinian civilians, then it must be viewed through the lens of state terrorism, not war crimes, resulting in the adoption of specific narratives stemming from the media's framing of terrorism. Therefore, Hamas and Israel are, regrettably, the two sides of the same coin.

But here is the problem and it is one of semantics, the word "deliberately" gives them the "out" and it is a word that should be removed from these types of discussions.
I used the analogy of killing snails in a fish bowl previously to explain this, targeting something deliberately is completely different to not caring whether you hit something in the process of targeting something else and I would argue that Israel is not deliberately targeting civilians it just doesn't care how many of them it kills while targeting Hamas.

But yes in the end Israel and Hamas are as bad as each other and neither care how many Palestinians they kill to meet their goals.

 

[Tuan]

I want to extend my appreciation to all the forum members who took part in this discussion. My special thanks go to Monty for sharing your valuable insights. Let's continue this rewarding hobby on this platform as it will benefit some, while some may face challenges. I conducted a qualitative research methodology based on your responses and used them to create this article. Here's the link to the article:

Israel and Hamas: Whose side of the fence are you on? https://projectofive.ca/2023/11/02/israel-and-hamas-whose-side-of-the-fence-are-you-on/

 

[MontyB]

I want to extend my appreciation to all the forum members who took part in this discussion. My special thanks go to Monty for sharing your valuable insights. Let's continue this rewarding hobby on this platform as it will benefit some, while some may face challenges. I conducted a qualitative research methodology based on your responses and used them to create this article. Here's the link to the article:

Israel and Hamas: Whose side of the fence are you on? https://projectofive.ca/2023/11/02/israel-and-hamas-whose-side-of-the-fence-are-you-on/

I will be honest, I forgot about Joseph Nye's comments on the role and influence of "narrative" in conflicts they make for interesting reading although the comment you attribute to him I think was first coined by John Arquilla about 20 years before, I recall an interview with Nye where he mentioned in passing that it was by Arquilla.

Found it...

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[lljadw]

So how many women, children and elderly non Hamas members should Israel be able to kill per actual Hamas member, care to give me a number?
To date I have seen no one anywhere in the western world criticizing Israel for killing Hamas but they are not impressed by the thousands of non-combatants being killed.

The difference is that Hamas was killing intentionally more than 1000 Israeli civilians ,while the civilians killed by Israel are not intentionally killed . Non intentionally killing of civilians is allowed in a war and is inevitable .Gaza is as Hiroshima, Dresden, Coventry,the cities of North Korea : a military target where also are living civilians .
And YES : the Muslim lobby in the West is attacking Israel when it kills Hamas terrorists,saying that the victims were innocent people .
Those who attack now Israel, remained silent when Hamas murdered more than thousand of civilians ,when Turkey, Iran, Iraq murdered and still murder countless of Kurds, when ISIS murdered countless of people in Europe .
Besides : the aim of Hamas and its allies in the West is not only the destruction of Israel ,but the extermination of all those who are wrongly called Jews and the enslavement of all those who are not Muslims .

 

[lljadw]

There is no such thing as an international humanitarian law : the big majority of the countries who are talking about an international humanitarian law are the first to violate him .
US kidnapped after 9/11 thousands of people whom they SUSPECTED to be members of ISIS/AQ and tortured them .
US killed many more civilians than members of AQ using drones and bombers . US killed 3 million civilians in the Korean War and hundreds of thousand in Afghanistan and Iraq and now it tries to prevent Israel to eliminate Hamas .
Besides : US has not the right to dictate and impose to the rest of the world what it thinks about international humanitarian law .

 

[Tuan]

I will be honest, I forgot about Joseph Nye's comments on the role and influence of "narrative" in conflicts they make for interesting reading although the comment you attribute to him I think was first coined by John Arquilla about 20 years before, I recall an interview with Nye where he mentioned in passing that it was by Arquilla.

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After receiving Monty's feedback, I fixed and updated the error in the article. Additionally, I cited John Arquilla.

 

[MontyB]

The difference is that Hamas was killing intentionally more than 1000 Israeli civilians ,while the civilians killed by Israel are not intentionally killed . Non intentionally killing of civilians is allowed in a war and is inevitable .Gaza is as Hiroshima, Dresden, Coventry,the cities of North Korea : a military target where also are living civilians .
And YES : the Muslim lobby in the West is attacking Israel when it kills Hamas terrorists,saying that the victims were innocent people .
Those who attack now Israel, remained silent when Hamas murdered more than thousand of civilians ,when Turkey, Iran, Iraq murdered and still murder countless of Kurds, when ISIS murdered countless of people in Europe .
Besides : the aim of Hamas and its allies in the West is not only the destruction of Israel ,but the extermination of all those who are wrongly called Jews and the enslavement of all those who are not Muslims .

Anyone know the threshold where wrongs become rights, I think it was more than two?
You certainly like the hasbara talking points as the entire post is about 7 lines of whataboutisms where the point is entirely overlooked., no one has argued that what Hamas has done was right as there is no justification for it and using the same standards there is no justification for Israel repeating the act.

The argument remains that they are equally as bad.

 

[Tuan]

Monty, please review page 5 of the attached journal article. Joseph Nye did not cite John Arquilla, which you referenced in the YouTube video. This discrepancy is concerning for a scholar.

"In the information age, success is not merely the result of whose army wins, but also whose story wins (Nye, 2008, p. 5)

Joseph S. Nye JR. (2008) Smart Power and the "War on Terror," Asia Pacific Review, 15:1, 1-8, DOI: 10.1080/13439000802134092

 

[MontyB]

Monty, please review page 5 of the attached journal article. Joseph Nye did not cite John Arquilla, which you referenced in the YouTube video. This discrepancy is concerning for a scholar.

"In the information age, success is not merely the result of whose army wins, but also whose story wins (Nye, 2008, p. 5)

Joseph S. Nye JR. (2008) Smart Power and the "War on Terror," Asia Pacific Review, 15:1, 1-8, DOI: 10.1080/13439000802134092

I am only going by what Nye said in his interview and given that the video was 4 years old and the statement had been made two decades before that it would make Arquilla's comment 24+ years old or in the 1998-2000 range but looking at some of Arquilla's work I can't see anything similar.

 

[lljadw]

Do you know wh

Oh goody more outdated 1960s leftover Soviet crap to destroy, should keep half a dozen HIMARS systems busy for a week.

Islamic Republic stages massive war games with 200 helicopters

The machinery and troops were deployed by the Islamic Republic for the exercise which was branded 'Authority 1402'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I also think we are beginning to see a change of attitude towards Israel that they are not going to like.

'Do not make us complicit in genocide,' Spanish minister tells EU

Ione Belarra calls for cutting ties with Israel, imposing sanctions and trying Netanyahu at Int'l Criminal Court for alleged war crimes in Gaza - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

My personal opinion is that it is impossible to support the actions of Hamas, had they crossed the border and wiped out a couple of military bases it may be different, but the targeting of civilians makes them nothing short of a terrorist organisation however, by the same token Israel's killing of thousands of Palestinian civilians is equally as unsupportable.

This leaves me back at square one where the two groups are as bad as each other, now I have no doubt someone will chime in with "Israel is not targeting civilians" but the reality is if you drop a hand grenade into a fishbowl to kill the snails without removing the fish then you don't then you don't really care how many fish you kill so please don't insult our intelligence by using that defence.

Do you know who is Ione Bellarra ? She is the leader of the crypto-communist Spanish Podemos who is hostile to the existence of Israel. Besides, she is only a member of an acting government that lost its majority at the elections

 

[lljadw]

Reply to post 70 ( very big problems to post something on the new forum )
Countless people have defended what Hamas did ,not only in Iran,but also in the US and Europe .
And Israel is not repeating what Hamas did : Hamas has killed intentionally thousand + of civilians, beheaded and raped children : Israel has not done this . Israel has asked the population of Gaza to leave the region, but most refused and those who were willing to do it,were prevented to do it by Hamas .The population of Gaza is surviving at the expense of US ( 770 million of USD given by Biden ),of Europe and of Israel :Israel is giving Gaza water and electricity . Not Iran or Turkey or any other Muslim country .
Outside the ME (NY City, Paris, Berlin, London, Vienna, Australia ,etc .. ) countless of people who most of them do not consider themselves as Jewish and are indifferent or hostile to the fate of Israel are threatened and attacked by Muslims and non Muslims . This proves that it is not about Israel,it is only the continuation of the Holocaust .
And, when the ''Jews '' will be exterminated, all the other non Muslims will follow .

 

[Tuan]

Outside the ME (NY City, Paris, Berlin, London, Vienna, Australia ,etc .. ) countless of people who most of them do not consider themselves as Jewish and are indifferent or hostile to the fate of Israel are threatened and attacked by Muslims and non Muslims . This proves that it is not about Israel,it is only the continuation of the Holocaust .
And, when the ''Jews '' will be exterminated, all the other non Muslims will follow .

It is not clear to me if you are implying an improper inference. I am sorry, but I disagree with your preconceived notion that the entire non-Jews are hostile towards Israel. India's 1.5B non-Jews - an overwhelming majority of Hindus (94%) - are supporting Israel. People take a stand because of the media portrayal of the conflict and how each media frames the opposing parties. Still, in my household, for example, my son and I stand with Israel, whereas my daughter and my wife support the Palestinian cause, not necessarily Hamas. People are divided because of emotional intelligence, not because of race or religion. Given the history of Jews and my personal experience with a few of them, I have immense respect and sympathy for the entire Jewish nation inside and outside Israel. If I have that opinion, coming from a Sri Lankan Tamil heritage (I don't believe in any freakin religion, but God, yes), there will be so many like me around all corners of the world, I would assume.

 

[George]

Seems to me that the notion that the population is a separate, innocent group of bystanders separate from the Govt/military is a recent concept.

 

[MontyB]

Seems to me that the notion that the population is a separate, innocent group of bystanders separate from the Govt/military is a recent concept.

Depends, if the population is "held hostage" by its administration then it is separate to that of the government or military, for example North Korea, Iran, Russia and I am prepared to bet that the Gaza Strip and West Bank are not known for their transparent democratic systems as such surely an argument could be made that if the population has no real say in government then it can be considered as separate from its government and largely innocent of any crimes committed by that government.

 

[lljadw]

It is not clear to me if you are implying an improper inference. I am sorry, but I disagree with your preconceived notion that the entire non-Jews are hostile towards Israel. India's 1.5B non-Jews - an overwhelming majority of Hindus (94%) - are supporting Israel. People take a stand because of the media portrayal of the conflict and how each media frames the opposing parties. Still, in my household, for example, my son and I stand with Israel, whereas my daughter and my wife support the Palestinian cause, not necessarily Hamas. People are divided because of emotional intelligence, not because of race or religion. Given the history of Jews and my personal experience with a few of them, I have immense respect and sympathy for the entire Jewish nation inside and outside Israel. If I have that opinion, coming from a Sri Lankan Tamil heritage (I don't believe in any freakin religion, but God, yes), there will be so many like me around all corners of the world, I would assume.

I did not say that the entire non-Jews are hostile to Israel or the ''Jews '' .
I said that not only Muslims but also non Muslims are hostile to those whom they consider as Jews . Che Guevara was an anti-Semite ,but not a Muslim .
The same for Franklin Roosevelt and countless others .
The far left groups in France, Germany, etc are also anti-Jew.
Corbyn was / is very anti -Semitic,as were Huxley, Bernard Shaw and the biggest part of the British left intelligentsia .
Other point : I doubt that there is a Jewish nation outside Israel,as most of ''Jewish '' people outside Israel do not consider themselves as Jewish and are indifferent or even hostile to the existence of Israel .
And : in Israel ?There is a big group of non Muslims in Israel who consider themselves as Israel but not as Jews/Jewish .

 

[DeinKaalZin]

1- I am starting this thread to find a once-and-for-all solution to stop the terrorist organization Hamas that attacked Israel on their holly day.

2- I believe it is not just Hamas that orchestrated this sophisticated and coordinated attack against Israel, as Hamas claimed they fired 5,000 rockets, which, in fact, were supplied by the fascist Iranian regime.

3- Indeed, it is a "colossal intelligence failure," as Israel was taken by surprise as multiple nation-states, including Iran, Lebanon, and, to some extent, Russia, have sponsored Hamas. It is neither national liberation that Hamas is fighting for nor does it asymmetric warfare.

4- The Japanese Samurai proclamation reminds us, "To kill an enemy, shoot his horse first." In this spirit, we must first eliminate the support bases of all terrorist organizations to obliterate them. This can only be done through soft diplomacy rather than brutal military might. As Roosevelt said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

1- Just stop them from attacking on hollidays? or eradicate them, once and forever? idk which one you mean!

2- You're right! surely Iran's regime was, and is, involved. this was not first attack against Jews or any non muslim (from their pov) people. almost 100 years ago, there were series of "purges" against Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, and even Kurds, by Ottomans.

3- I would add both Russia and China, as political supporters, rest, as religious supporters.

4- there are many sayings, like this one from unkwon arab person:

"Sword is the last resort, since a man who has drawn his sword, shall finally fall by sword".

but without knowing and understanding what you are fighting, you cant defeat it. just like you want to shot down a chopper with your fists! impossible.

 

[DeinKaalZin]

1- I think you are making the assumption that Hamas is entirely at fault and overlooking the fact that it takes two to tango.

2- There is no doubt a solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict needs to be found but it wont being in destroying either Hamas, Iran or Israel depending on your views, a solution is needed that gives Israel its security and the Palestinians their freedom and that will require Israel to make concessions because it is the only party with anything to concede.

3- Hamas in my opinion is the result of the condition Palestinians find themselves in (just like gangs' recruit from the poor and disenfranchised) they are not representative of the Palestinians themselves, if there was a chance of a better life Hamas would vanish on its own.

4- I found this and I kind of agree with it although I suspect it is more pro-Palestinian than I am on the matter but I think its tone is about right...

From hubris to humiliation: The 10 hours that shocked Israel

The Palestinian blitzkrieg is a military failure and a political catastrophe for Israel of colossal proportions.

www.aljazeera.com

1- I actually support his word! its a duel, and only one will survive it. i really wish there was a way to have no survivors, but impossible.

2- this hostilities have already destroyed Iran!!! since i never left the country, I cant talk about other 2.

3- So so, but they join for a varity of reasons... most likely, to your surprise, it has no relation with religion. Surely they dont represent Palestinians, but have they ever tried to resist against Hamas???

4- The link is not working for me.