Israel is at war

Tuan said:
Disinformation warfare involves the coordinated dissemination of false information, with an end goal of misleading, confusing, or manipulating an audience.
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It's called Hybrid Warfare today and has been used throughout the history of warfare.
 
one TV news story mentioned missiles for the Iron Dome system being sent from the US, I'd think they would be self-sufficient in those.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
If and when more civilians are killed can trigger other arab countries. Israel should be careful with hitting targets in Syria
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the same way Hamas has been hitting Israel for a long time, Israel has been hitting Iranian backed targets in Syria.
 
Reports suggest that the IDF stopped a group of Hamas frogmen trying to enter Israel by sea through a tunnel in Gaza. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has evolved into a multidomain warfighting group, operating on sea, air, land, underwater, and underground. Only the Tamil Tigers are known to operate similarly. Hamas has invested billions of dollars, provided by Gulf nations like Qatar, in constructing an extensive network of underground tunnels. This system is so vast that some Gazans are known to reside both above and below ground.

To obliterate groups like this, first and foremost, Israel must cut off the underground supplies, eliminate the support bases, and remove the cephalothorax of the spider that is taking out the Hamas leadership.
 
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Tuan said:
Reports suggest that the IDF stopped a group of Hamas frogmen trying to enter Israel by sea through a tunnel in Gaza. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has evolved into a multidomain warfighting group, operating on sea, air, land, underwater, and underground. Only the Tamil Tigers are known to operate similarly. Hamas has invested billions of dollars, provided by Gulf nations like Qatar, in constructing an extensive network of underground tunnels. This system is so vast that some Gazans are known to reside both above and below ground.

To obliterate groups like this, first and foremost, Israel must cut off the underground supplies, eliminate the support bases, and remove the cephalothorax of the spider that is taking out the Hamas leadership.
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It will be difficult for Israel to eradicate Hamas and similar groups.
 
Oh goody more outdated 1960s leftover Soviet crap to destroy, should keep half a dozen HIMARS systems busy for a week.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Islamic Republic stages massive war games with 200 helicopters

The machinery and troops were deployed by the Islamic Republic for the exercise which was branded 'Authority 1402'.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

I also think we are beginning to see a change of attitude towards Israel that they are not going to like.

www.aa.com.tr

'Do not make us complicit in genocide,' Spanish minister tells EU

Ione Belarra calls for cutting ties with Israel, imposing sanctions and trying Netanyahu at Int'l Criminal Court for alleged war crimes in Gaza - Anadolu Ajansı
www.aa.com.tr www.aa.com.tr

My personal opinion is that it is impossible to support the actions of Hamas, had they crossed the border and wiped out a couple of military bases it may be different, but the targeting of civilians makes them nothing short of a terrorist organisation however, by the same token Israel's killing of thousands of Palestinian civilians is equally as unsupportable.

This leaves me back at square one where the two groups are as bad as each other, now I have no doubt someone will chime in with "Israel is not targeting civilians" but the reality is if you drop a hand grenade into a fishbowl to kill the snails without removing the fish then you don't then you don't really care how many fish you kill so please don't insult our intelligence by using that defence.
 
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Monty, I agree with your point that Israel should remove the fish before they drop the grenades to kill the snails.

I know that it is all easier said than executed. I can't imagine how the Israeli offensive aimed to wipe out Hamas without perpetuating war crimes on all fronts. The end of the Tamil Tigers only came with a massive war crime in 2009. Do we expect the IDF to do the same with the Palestinians? It would be disgusting, but if they win, they might get away with war crimes like all victors. The Allies in WW2 committed massive war crimes by carpet bombing German and Japanese cities at the end of WW2... but they won. Therefore, there are no consequences.

How do you assess this conundrum? IMHO, the only way forward to avoid civilian casualties is timely and actionable military intelligence collection.
 
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Tuan said:
Monty, I agree with your point that Israel should remove the fish before they drop the grenades to kill the snails.

I know that it is all easier said than executed. I can't imagine how the Israeli offensive aimed to wipe out Hamas without perpetuating war crimes on all fronts. The end of the Tamil Tigers only came with a massive war crime in 2009. Do we expect the IDF to do the same with the Palestinians? It would be disgusting, but if they win, they might get away with war crimes like all victors. The Allies in WW2 committed massive war crimes by carpet bombing German and Japanese cities at the end of WW2... but they won. Therefore, there are no consequences.

How do you assess this conundrum? IMHO, the only way forward to avoid civilian casualties is timely and actionable military intelligence collection.
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There is no conundrum WW2 is history, we can't change it but we can learn from it. If we turn a blind eye to Israel's actions then we we have learned nothing, conversely Hamas can't be allowed a free pass either.
I tend to think allowing a controlled flow of civilians out of the areas prior to military action to secure them would at least indicate some level of care.
 
MontyB said:
I tend to think allowing a controlled flow of civilians out of the areas prior to military action to secure them would at least indicate some level of care.
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I thought about that as well and made a post in this thread that Israel should create a safe zone in one of the cleared areas for Palestinian civilians to find refuge. Still, Hamas will try its best to counter that and probably would send suicide bombers to infiltrate, disguising as civilians to restrain and retreat IDF. This is where IDF’s technological advantage could play a crucial role in scanning and detecting explosives from the sky using spy drones. I predict Israel will play by the rules and win this war. As for Hamas, they already know this fully. That's why Hanas is using its political wing cards to hold demonstrations in all major cities worldwide, calling for a ceasefire. I don't think Iran will get involved in direct confrontations because Uncle Sam supports Israel.
 
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Tuan said:
I thought about that as well and made a post in this thread that Israel should create a safe zone in one of the cleared areas for Palestinian civilians to refuge, but Hamas will try its best to counter that and probably would send suicide bombers to infiltrate disguising as civilians to restrain and retreat IDF. This is where IDF’s technological advantage could play a crucial role in scanning and detecting explosives from the sky using spy drones. I predict Isreal will play by rules and win this war and Hamas already knowing that fully using its political wing to hold demonstrations in all major cities worldwide. I don't think Iran will get involved in direct confrontations because of Uncle Sam’s support to Isreal.
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I don't think the demonstrations being held world wide are motivated by Hamas but rather they are a sign that the world in general is beginning to understand that there are two protagonists in this war that are responsible for the mass deaths of for want of a better word "innocent" civilians and neither deserve the moral high ground.

You have two parties neither of whom are genuinely seeking a solution, Hamas kills 1000 Israelis and Israel kills 10000 Palestinians, rinse and repeat every 5 years and I think over all the world is largely appalled by both groups, it is human chess.
 
I do think that terrorism has no place in this day and age. But hatred. racism, discrimination, poverty, oppression, religion and above all the revenge of geography are the reasons why humanity is at war throughout history.
 
Tuan said:
I do think that terrorism has no place in this day and age. But hatred. racism, discrimination, poverty, oppression, religion and above all the revenge of geography are the reasons why humanity is at war throughout history.
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That whole list is driven entirely by religion, nothing else has institutionalised hatred, racism, discrimination and poverty nor has anything thrived from oppression like religion.
As for terrorism having no place in this day and age, let's not forget the old adage "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" who is and isn't a terrorist is dependant entirely on which side you are on.
 
MontyB said:
My personal opinion is that it is impossible to support the actions of Hamas, had they crossed the border and wiped out a couple of military bases it may be different, but the targeting of civilians makes them nothing short of a terrorist organisation however, by the same token Israel's killing of thousands of Palestinian civilians is equally as unsupportable.
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yes, but that is why the area beneath the cities are where Hamas lives.
 
George said:
yes, but that is why the area beneath the cities are where Hamas lives.
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Not sure that is relevant, if we assume they see themselves as being at war with Israel and Israel sees them as the enemy then the logical thing for Hamas to do is to move underground.
It really isn't any different to moving factories underground or the Vietcong tunnels it is a necessity if they are to operate.
 
MontyB said:
Not sure that is relevant, if we assume they see themselves as being at war with Israel and Israel sees them as the enemy then the logical thing for Hamas to do is to move underground.
It really isn't any different to moving factories underground or the Vietcong tunnels it is a necessity if they are to operate.
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Building a factory under a hospital, hen "Oh my god, they bombed a hospital!"
 
George said:
Building a factory under a hospital, hen "Oh my god, they bombed a hospital!"
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Yes, but once again what if they have gone down the path of armed conflict and they only have a limited amount of space then what alternative do they have, in a densely populated are the "Factory" is going to be built under something.

This is not an attempt to justify Hamas, I am simply pointing out that if we were in the same position and operating with the same mindset, I doubt we would do anything different.
 
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