Arab Army

Umm excuse me, a little statement.

Morocco isnt Arab. Arabs are a minority in a country like Morocco. 70% of Morocco's population are from a much different ethnic group called "Amazigh" people. They are also called "Berbers" but I dont use this term as its a pejorative term used by Arabs to call other ethnic groups "barbarians"...

About the king of Morocco... I know a little about the guy, he is a well educated man, so he will never be "an average citizen". Even under a very primitive form of Islamic law, he would be an "emir" (elected local leader)...
The president of Algeria too, he is very loved and very respected. The Generals of his army on the other hand are seen as completely corrupt...
A bit like the president of Tunisia, he was a loved leader in the beginning, but his wife and her family were a real mafia like organisation, and they are the ones who ruined the party for him.

dougal, you mean Lawrance of Arabia... And there is many movies about the Muslim world, some of them are just wonderful stories about very strong men. I personally love this kind of movies. Some of them are historically correct.
I remember one where there was a shocking scene were you saw a british military officer throwing a young woman in the tent of his soldiers... This kind of images are very very powerful for people from an Arab culture. They hate invaders to the core and they have very strong sense of defense... In particular when their women are involved. They believe that the day they will die, god or the victims of his enemies will ask him why he didnt defend them and why he didnt fulfill his duty of protecting them...

It's a very interesting culture to study... And I dont share your fears guys. I believe that having the Muslims divided is a big problem for mankind.

To be united, they will have to go back to their roots, and this means Islam. And Islam forbids aggression wars. They will never attack you unless you come to them.
So the threat of the Muslims united to attack us... I believe it's total BS...

Human nature tends to balance itself. They are aggressive toward us because we behave like enemies. Just read the opinions here. "I'm scared", "they will deny us oil", "think of the suicide bombers" etc etc...
Of course you should be scared, you named them your enemies...

And the weakness of the Muslim world right now is calling for our corruption... It's extremely dangerous.
In the colonial era, we sent our criminals to get wealthy in their lands, and we had wealthy criminals coming back to build our countries...

it's extremely dangerous if you look carefully...

And the Arab countries have a lot of perfectly good killers, just that they are very rare as their best men are working in the economic sector rather than the military... They a very few elite troops and they have many many many ill trained/equiped troops... That underdevelopment for you... A few areas are very developed and the rest inst developed at all.

And they lack strategic weapons. Like advanced aircraft, anti air equipment, anti ships technology, electronic counter measures and electronic warfare equipment etc...
All their conventional military equipment is not a real threat for Western military... Maybe if they find a way to use their numbers to strike at once... But I doubt that the Western troops with all their expertise in tactics would fall in this kind of traps...

The Abrams the Saudis have can be taken out easily in the deserts of Saudi Arabia... Remember the slaughter of Iraqi units in the first gulf war? The Coalition (monstly US) troops ate them for breakfast...
 
The day Arab gets advance weapons the world will be hell to live in....you bet....
history has shown us the nature of Islam...all this talk of presenting Islam as peaceful religion is total BS....i am not from west and its not only the west which is enemy of islam but every other religion which has come under attack coz of islam....
 
zhaldev, with all due respect... What you said is completely unfair.

Islam isnt a peaceful religion. You attack them, they beat the living hell out of you. And it's normal.

But it's a mainly defensive religion. Let's be accurate on one point. Islam is a religion designed to spread its borders. If you believe in a god behind the laws of Islam, this god wants his word spreading in the world.

But when it comes to the use of violence, it's only on defense.

Laws of Islam are very very clear on some points, like the interdiction of aggression. A Muslim, and I mean by that a man following the laws of Islam will never be the aggressor. As it's forbidden.

Second point, they have very very strict laws for war. like our modern rules of engagement, just that they wont hesistate as much when it comes to wasting lives to protect moral values...

Add to that the "if you kill once innocent person, it's like you killed the whole mankind in the eyes of god."

You bring me a man who believes that... And I will live in peace with him.

And you have to absolutely see the difference between Islam, the academic knowledge, the popular beliefs mixed with traditions, the disguise some organisations wear to get power... Like the Arab dynasties, the Ottoman Empire etc etc... All these guys represent only themselves.

It's the human nature. Rare are the people who really respect the rules. May the rules come from Islam, from the democratic principles, from the constitution of the USA, from the Torah, from the Bible and Jesus... etc...

Men will use the law when its in their favor, and they will forget it when it's not...

I'm not Afraid of Arabs, of Muslims, of Indians, of Chinese people, of anyone in fact... I'm afraid to not be ready the day a weak mind in a strong body with powerful weapons will try to attack my people... And this happened in history many times before, and it will happen again...
 
For one you said its mainly defensive religion and in other you saying it want to spread its wings over borders....how in the world do you see it as a non aggressive religion...Even their God want to spread his influence...If he is a God then he doesn't need to...sorry for going off topic though....and god don't need sword to spread his word...
 
zhaldev, it's designed to spread, sometimes through violent actions (war).

But they wont start this war. This is what I said.

The human nature is this way, when you dont attack, sooner rather than later, people come to attack you.

Islam is a very well thought religion, we see this in its systemic qualities.

We know that the human nature gives unique qualities in warfare when you have a strong cause on your side. And what better cause is there than to fight to defend yourself? to survive?

Even the weak can fight against much stronger than him if he is left no choice, which is the case in a defensive war.

So Islam spreads by letting other "systems" attack it...

And dont get lost with the idea of god... Unless you are a Muslim, you just have to understand their conception of a deity.

To understand Muslims, you have to see the subtle difference between "live for god" and "fight in the path of god"...

Most Muslims dont understand that, as they took foreign concepts through contact with Christians. Like the concept of the crusader fighting the enemies of god. This concept have absolutely no meaning to genuine (pure) Muslim minds.

But like I said before, there will be no all powerful Arabic army... All they can get is an Islamic army. And if they manage to reach this level. The Islamic army will built in a purely Islamic conceptual background. And there will be no wars of agression... And in fact, this army could be more powerful in a non-Muslim country like the USA, or China than in under-developed countries like Egypt, Algeria etc... Because for them, the nation of Islam is where Muslims are present. And this means all over the world.

Big theories I know, but just to explain how long is the path... They are light years away from this Islamic army...

And if you want an Arab army, it's already here... It's Al-Qaeda. poorly educated, poorly trained, poorly equiped, poorly organized,extremely fragmented violent organisation... Who only exist because of poverty, poor understand of religious moral values, careless Western propaganda etc etc...

Not a serious threat at all... Even a madman like Khadafi in Libya understood how ridiculous it is, and he is now calling the poeple walking against him in the name of Arab pride/nationalism/religion Al-Qaeda units... And he is damn right.
 
I really appreciate your views,you are right on most of the counts but there are religions much much older than Islam and they never felt of spreading the word of god by sword....actually you are right on that sooner or later people come to attack you...this has happened to my religion(Hindu) innumerable times mostly by islam...you are wrong on the same...my religion didn't attacked any one, it could have as it was only one at that time...yes there are many faults but it doesn't mean you need sword or a cause as you said to spread...Its all feeling of insecurity and lack of faith in themselves that they need to spread by sword.By the way i am not against muslims but their insecurity about their own religion which is a cause of trouble right now in the world.
 
Thanks, but zhaldev, you have to be define the level of your intervention. Are we speaking like buddies in a bar, and we dont care much about how accurate we are... Or are we trying to be as accurate as possible?

In theory, no one in the history of mankind was ever attacked "by Islam". Islam doesnt have hands to carry a weapon.

But some people were attacked by Muslims/Islamic armies. And some people were attacked in the name of Allah.

But you cant really judge the religious doctrine on these historical facts. It would be like judging the message of Jesus to mankind by studying the actions of the crusaders (who murdered a lot of innocent people, from Europe to Jerusalem, and many of them were innocent Jews in Europe who were killed to be pillaged/looted to finance the war efforts)...

The situation is that complex.

To give you an example, I have absolutely no problem with Islam as a religion. I would even say that it's a wonderful religion that will build wonderful citizens for any country.

But bring me a Taliban as an example... And I will try to change him or even fight him in some situations as his views would be intolerable for me.

How would you explain that? I'm not a bigot. Just that this kind of people dont understand and enforce their own laws. This is the cultural factor. Islam alone works pretty well. Islam + Arab culture = Saudi Arabia. Islam + Tribal culture of Afghanistan/Pakistan = Taliban gang land. Islam + Communist doctrine + colonial era's effect = Algeria's corrupt regime. etc etc...

In fact, every time someone tried himself in the exploitation of the strong language of Islam, it turned into a disaster... Just think of USA in Afghanistan... They armed the Mujahideen to use them to build a Soviet Vietnam, and today, they are stuck there.

And sometimes, some cultures mix well with Islam, like your culture (India's culture) with Islam to make Sufism. In this forum there is a thread about how Sufism is liked in the Russian Federation.

Islam is a major religion. No body can control it, destroy it etc... It have to be treated with respect. It's too powerful to be toyed with by lesser minds.

And about the insecurity of Muslims with their own religion... That's an interesting perspective, I honestly never thought about it this way. I will think about it. But I guess that Muslim are in a time of huge confusion, like most of us on this planet. The world is changing, it will make some people nervous.

But a lot of horrible things have been done in the past... I dont really believe in Karma, but I believe that someone will have to pay for all of this.
 
Islam may not be a violent religion per se; however it is breeding terrorist extremism through the teachings of some of its respected clerics. The frequent claims that it is "just a few" or that "these people do not represent true followers of Islam" does not lift responsibility from the religion. Islam has bred this serious and deadly misconception by one means or another and must take a strong role in ending terrorism in its teachings.​

All closed religions have violent histories on the part of some followers (closed religions are those who lay proprietary claim to one God; open religions recognize and accept other religious beliefs as valid, so are perhaps less prone to proselytize by the sword. Hence, for example, Islam and Christianity are closed; Buddhism is open). Christians have have had millenia of experience killing non-Christians, and even their own in the name of the Holy Trinity. No one religion has a monopoly on violence. Conversely, all such religions have followers who do not espouse violence, so the question is not phrased well. It's important to understand that neither side constitutes a definition of the religion. Are there violent elements in the followers of Islam? Yes. Are there peace-loving Muslims? Yes. The same is true of of Christianity. The fact of being "closed" is in itself an invitation to argument (My god is bigger than your god, and no, they are not the same"), and the argument tends to be engaged by the most intense adherents, so violence from some quarter is an inevitable consequence of the marriage between that kind of religious dogma and human nature.

 
Well, I'm trying to explain a very complex environment. It will serve us in opinion building, and in choosing our politics toward the different players we have. And we have to be accurate, as we are living in the same planet.

I just dont like this scarecrow Islam we hear about... Oooh, fear the evil Islam, he will eat you alive...

And Seehund, your view is perfectly understandable. But if the actions of Muslims are the results of Islam, then we should also add the other cultures involved in the mix. And remember that we live in a world dominated by the Western culture.

We have a large share of responsibility for everything happening in the world. And in our politics, we forget that very often. And we very often drop the blame on Muslims.
 
If you claim that the West is to blame for Islamic terrorism then what then amazes me is this; if there exists so many peace-loving Muslims, why do we never hear from them and that they dissociate from Islamic terrorism.

It's not my job to justify Islam's existence, it is Muslims themselves. But when you tacitly are observing terror, made in the religious name, then you consents, unfortunately. What does it help us that we have achieved knowledge of nuances of Islam? We still have religious persons who, via references to their religion kill... Should we simply accept that this type of Islam exists? Surely one would conclude that religion represents a form of madness, and that Islamic terrorism is not the West's fault. You don’t necessarily have to blow up women and children because you disagree with Western foreign policy. Assuming a view which says that it’s only crazy people who act extreme, is waiving the people of responsibility and free will, and further, it is a sharp devaluation of these people's actions. It is a vague, luxury position to defend, which ultimately expresses a viewpoint called; yes the Islamists are there, but they know no better. And so we will never overcome these religious people. Reality describes various forms of Islam, I know, but it does not relieve the responsibility of Muslims to fight the violent part of their religion.

But then I would argue that it is latent in Islam to take up arms.
 
Well, dont get stuck in this way of thinking mate. It's, at best, a sterile way to see things... You wont get any results down that path.

And you violate many many basic principles of justice and I would say common sense if not basic intelligence if there is any...

I could build you a list of problems in your way to see things. Please dont take it personnally, I'm not calling anyone simple minded, just that it's a very closed way to see things.

1- Islamic terrorism, like terrorism and guerrilla warfare is a "natural" answer to an overwhelming force. It's a reaction, not an action. If you think that they started it. Then you are wrong. Something happened before that.

2- Muslims are NOT responsible for the actions of other people. Asking the Muslims to take responsibility for the actions of some self declared Muslim faction is a very dangerous position. In fact, you give some legitimacy to extremist people like Ben Laden who believes that all Americans are responsible for the disastrous foreign policies of their country... It's unfair.

Why should a "normal" Muslim feel more concerned than you or me?

And if you push them to chose a side in this battle... Do you believe it's smart? What makes you think that they will chose your side? It's like putting a gun on neutral people and asking them to chose a side. They might lie to you to shoot you in the back and join your enemy...

There is enough confused people in the terror/anti-terror business... And we already have to get rid of these crazy people. Dont add more people in this crazy soup...

Dont jump in their propaganda. Dont buy it at all. From a conceptual view point, they are all exactly the same. The two parts of the same coin. They both will go through you and your blood to fulfil their personnal agendas.

And about Muslims, these people shouldnt care at all about our views. For their own benefit.
We allowed dictators to crush these people in the name of "stability". And now that this forced stability is falling, you are asking them to move and to join the fight after we spent years and years asking them to bend over and to shut up in front of dictators...

Do you know what is a double bind in psychology? It's like if your superior officer orders you to jump and to sit in one single order. What do you do? You do neither, you scratch your head like an idiot asking yourself "why do I have to listen to this madman?"

This is the high level of confusion we see in that part of the world. And this is what we can understand. We are not even sure that we are grasping the whole situation correctly...

If you believe that the Muslims are people like you who should react like you... Then go ahead.

P.S: Muslims lost much more people to terrorism than we ever did. And they are fighting terrorism, we are not always told...

P.P.S: I can find some symmetry in your views and some similar counter parts in the Muslim world. You ask Muslims why they arent moving against religious terrorism.
And they could ask you too why you arent arent moving against state terrorism?

I could push this quest for symmetry further... But I dont think any of us would like the results. Ignorance is bliss and I prefer to enjoy this sunny afternoon with a clear mind.
 
I have got to give it to you there LeMask. You have ignorance mastered. PS: Islam IS a peaceful religion.
 
dude ... what a discussion we had here and i just miss the whole show .... :sorry:

since leMask :bravo:has made things clearer than i could ever be .... just allow me to make it short


coming from the biggest islamic country in the world ( though it's a secular one :-D ) .... until those midle easterner fanatic got educated in mind the whole idea about unified armies of islamic country is totally B******t ...

there i said it .... may peace be upon you brothers
 
And hey we Muslims believe in all Jewish prophets also and as for me I'm a Muslim but I admire the character and leadership of moses but we only believe that there is one god who is Allah:pray:
 
Hey O.W.E.G.

There is only one God, wether you call that God Allah, Jahve or anything else, there is still only one God, and quite a lot of people belive, some way or another, in that God.

In my opinion, people may belive in any way they like, as long as they do it in their homeland and don't harm others by doing it, but enforcing their way of believing on others....that doesn't sound well in the ears of anyone who have the knowledgde of how entire nations were lead astray by false "prophets" some 80 years back.

I wouldn't dream about going to Egypt and tell you that you are praying in a wrong manner, and I deteste the idea that some people may want to kill me for the manner I whorsip the same God as they are claiming to kill for.

Maybe some day we will come to peace with each other, insh' Allah!
 
A Can of Man said:
If you tell a Turk he is an Arab he will bash your face in.

In fact, "Arab" is an insult in Turkey.

Mod:No more offtopics.
Click to expand...

We get angry when anyone calls us Arab but Arab is not an insult in Turkey.
Just we have some historical problems about ww1.Thats it.
By the way i can say that clearly Arab and Turk just like white and black.
I meant we have no alot of common side except Islam.
But even about islam both nation has different traditions.

Personally i have no problem with Arabs....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top