XM8 Dropped?

[Dean]

I agree with everyone who's said that the H&K rebuild of the M16, the HK416, would be a good choice (if you really can't bring yourself to go bullpup). H&K did a good job on the SA80 family, I'm guessing their efforts with the M16/M4 family are probably good as well.

It's not a matter of going bullpup or not. My idea was simply to adopt an interim rifle that is reliable, accurate and, for the moment, cost effective. Going bullpup before you have even decided whether or not to change calibres is silly as that would mean that you are very possibly making the same mistake that has already been made. We don't want the US adopting a new rifle without consulting their allies on whether or not everyone wants to keep the same calibre. As well, even if you do decide to keep the 5.56 round, the idea would be to get the best possible weapon, a process which will take years. As it seems that the M-4 may need replacement sooner rather than later, the HK-416 becomes a very interesting interim solution, particlarly as you only have to buy the upper receivers rather than an entire rifle. Time of conversion? About 25 seconds.

Dean.

 

[Whispering Death]

The modular design of the XM-8 means it can be rechambered very quickly.

 

[Doug97]

We don't want the US adopting a new rifle without consulting their allies on whether or not everyone wants to keep the same calibre.

Is the HK416 available in a variety of calibres?

 

[Joker]

Is the HK416 available in a variety of calibres?

Yes, there are rumors that there will be a version in good old 7.62X51. This will be the HK 417.
And for the HK416 will be a 10.5", 14.5",16.5" and 20" barrel available.

Greetings JOKER

 

[PJ24]

I was lucky enough to get my hands on one of the HK416 uppers before HK put the fist down but boy did I have to pay. Good stuff.

 

[Doug97]

It's not a matter of going bullpup or not. My idea was simply to adopt an interim rifle that is reliable, accurate and, for the moment, cost effective. Going bullpup before you have even decided whether or not to change calibres is silly as that would mean that you are very possibly making the same mistake that has already been made.

Then surely adopting any new rifle is silly until you've decided on the calibre?

 

[FO Seaman]

Yeah, the bit about reliability/durability being #1 and then accuracy being #2 ... With the M16, I know they had something better than they thought they had at first, but I blows my mind that something hasn't been done to come up with something better in ... 40 years or so?

What? In 1984 when the USMC adopted the M16A2, the U.S. Army waited two years for a better weapon to come, but non could compete with the M16.

As 5.56 has said the M16/M4 is a great weapons system that has been built upon better and better. While the M16 does jam, so does every other weapon.

The U.S. Army dropped the M14 for the M16 because NATO was pushing for 5.56mm as standard assualt rilfe ammo.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Look, in the end. No one will agree here. These topics are just the classic "bolder up the never ending hill". I'm getting tired of this.

 

[Doug97]

Look, in the end. No one will agree here. These topics are just the classic "bolder up the never ending hill". I'm getting tired of this.

No-one is ever going to agree?

I have to disagree with that one ...

 

[Dean]

What? In 1984 when the USMC adopted the M16A2, the U.S. Army waited two years for a better weapon to come, but non could compete with the M16.

As 5.56 has said the M16/M4 is a great weapons system that has been built upon better and better. While the M16 does jam, so does every other weapon.

The U.S. Army dropped the M14 for the M16 because NATO was pushing for 5.56mm as standard assualt rilfe ammo.

CS, you should read the article that was posted by Joker in the other XM-8 thread. It would be very interesting reading for you.
At the time the US Army held the competiton for the replacement of the M-16 in 1984, there were very few rifles out there, and none of them met the initial requirements put forward for the competition. As a result, existing rifles such as the Galil and the Steyr AUG were unable to even enter the competition. Since then, I have often heard and read people who said that those trials were designed to ensure that only the M-16 cound win the competition. I beleive it. As it was, AFAIK, the only two rifles that were evaluated were the M-16 and the mini-14. There was no real competition.

The US was the first country to adopt the 5.56 cartridge. Nobody was pushing for it, in fact, nobody had ever even heard of it. European countries, including Austria where the excellent AUG had been developed were still more or less happily using the FN-FAL and the HK G-3. The US was still using the recently issued M-14. Suddenly and unilaterally, Robert Strange McNamara did two things: he did away with the procurement system, which he said was too cumbersome, and he listened to some of his friends who told him that the M-16 fired a small round that would rip the arm off of whoever it hit. It was not true, but McNamara forced the Army to adopt the M-16 anyways, in spite of the fact that no other country in the world was even considering its use. Twice in a row, the US has forced NATO to adopt a specific cartridge, but if a decision is made to change it, I hope that the US listents this time. They should. Although many Americans love to think that Europeans don't know about guns, the fact is that European companies are making the best military weapons in the world, and they deserve the right to decide which cartridge, and by extension, which rifle NATO should adopt this time around.

Dean.

 

[Dean]

What? In 1984 when the USMC adopted the M16A2, the U.S. Army waited two years for a better weapon to come, but non could compete with the M16.

As 5.56 has said the M16/M4 is a great weapons system that has been built upon better and better. While the M16 does jam, so does every other weapon.

The U.S. Army dropped the M14 for the M16 because NATO was pushing for 5.56mm as standard assualt rilfe ammo.

CS, you should read the article that was posted by Joker in the other XM-8 thread. It would be very interesting reading for you.
At the time the US Army held the competiton for the replacement of the M-16 in 1984, there were very few rifles out there, and none of them met the initial requirements put forward for the competition. As a result, existing rifles such as the Galil and the Steyr AUG were unable to even enter the competition. Since then, I have often heard and read people who said that those trials were designed to ensure that only the M-16 cound win the competition. I beleive it. As it was, AFAIK, the only two rifles that were evaluated were the M-16 and the mini-14. There was no real competition.

The US was the first country to adopt the 5.56 cartridge. Nobody was pushing for it, in fact, nobody had ever even heard of it. European countries, including Austria where the excellent AUG had been developed were still more or less happily using the FN-FAL and the HK G-3. The US was still using the recently issued M-14. Suddenly and unilaterally, Robert Strange McNamara did two things: he did away with the procurement system, which he said was too cumbersome, and he listened to some of his friends who told him that the M-16 fired a small round that would rip the arm off of whoever it hit. It was not true, but McNamara forced the Army to adopt the M-16 anyways, in spite of the fact that no other country in the world was even considering its use. Twice in a row, the US has forced NATO to adopt a specific cartridge, but if a decision is made to change it, I hope that the US listents this time. They should. Although many Americans love to think that Europeans don't know about guns, the fact is that European companies are making the best military weapons in the world, and they deserve the right to decide which cartridge, and by extension, which rifle NATO should adopt this time around.

Dean.

 

[Joker]

Then surely adopting any new rifle is silly until you've decided on the calibre?

I think your right!!!! First you need a round that will comply with all requirements and than find a rifle that will shoot it reliable and accurate!!!
I think thats the right way!!!

Greetz Joker

P.S. And thanks again Dean :cheers:

 

[Obvious]

If you people h8 plastic guns so much, then ill give you a full metal gun that wieghs 9 without the ammo. You will carry it for the entire frikkin day, lets see how fast you run with it in your hands when its still loaded.

Has anyone fired a full metal machine gun and touch the barrel. You'll see what i mean when your hand looks like playdo.

 

[Trooper599]

Nothing is soldierproof, and i think also they will break. So it must have at least some backup iron sights!!!
Thats also the only thing i hate at the G36!!!

Yea, same here with regards to the Canadian Forces C7. The Elcan optical sight on them is for the birds. Once tuned, you can't bump or knock the thing for fear your sight will be off the next time you fire it.

 

[Fox]

Well, that XM8 looks interesting me.

 

[Mohmar Deathstrike]

I'm sure the G36 and XM-8 could be easily modiifed to have iron-sights? Of course, then why has nobody done it??

 

[Joker]

G36 has backup sights, but you can´t use them because of the reddot sight. In the G36A1 you can use them because the reddot is replaced with a rail where you can mount any optikal sight and remove it when its broken so you can use your backups!!!
Greetz Joker

 

[gigabrain]

what about the new HK416. i think that looks interesting

 

[Mohmar Deathstrike]

G36 has backup sights, but you can´t use them because of the reddot sight. In the G36A1 you can use them because the reddot is replaced with a rail where you can mount any optikal sight and remove it when its broken so you can use your backups!!!
Greetz Joker

That's good, I guess.
What *IS* a red dot sight though? Is it a laser sight or does the red dot only exist within the sight?

 

[Joker]

That's good, I guess.
What *IS* a red dot sight though? Is it a laser sight or does the red dot only exist within the sight?

Your Military Status is active duty and your country is Germany so you are member of german military (Bundeswehr) and as a german soldier you must know the G36 and you must know where the red dot sight is and what it is!!! Or is the active duty that you talk about "junior firefighter"?
Sorry for getting fftopic: but i can´t belive this.
Joker