Worst "Commander" of WWII?
jason_420
Active member
Affirmative Sir,
Panzercracker
Active member
So was Mussolini, Hitler was actually quite competent with strokes of genius, he just took too many decisions on his own shoulders.
mmarsh
Active member
Yes, all the stories I heard said that Ike was looking for a scapegoat. But Fredendall deserved to be fired. Which is why Fredendall was "Politely" sacked. Essentially he was transfered to run some camp back in the States. He did eventually return to Combat but he never commanded another Army group again.
irate:
redcoat
Active member
Monty had many personal problems, but being a pathological liar wasn't one of them. In fact one of Monty's major problems was his tendancy to tell people the truth as he saw it, despite the offense it might cause
tomtom22
Chief Engineer
A strong case can be made for Adm Nagumo being the worst leader of WW-2! His mis-judgements single handedly caused the Japanese to loose the Pacific War.
His reluctance at Pearl Harbor, prevented a second and third strike that day which would have damaged and destroyed the submarine base, drydocks, fuel storage and, military repair facilities. This allowed the Americans to recover from the attack on 12/07/41. His photo reconaisance after the attack showed the subs at their berths. All reconn photos showed the battleships were no threat and no air attacks could be mounted from the Island of Oahu. His search planes had a greater range than the American carriers planes, so why not look for a day or two for the American carriers?
At the Battle for Midway Island, his lack of decise decisions at critical times made the difference in that battle in losing that battle.
As he sent out his first strike force against the Island of Midway, he had two carriers with reserve aircraft set for a land attack and two others for a sea attack. He also had several dozen fighters providing CAP. Having them 'all' run low on fuel is extremely poor planning. A poor area or sea search to insure no American ships were around (seven search planes) missed a lot. One Japanese search planes passed close to one of the American carrier and didn't see it on his outward bound leg of his search before the second search plane (IJN Tone's scout #4) on his return leg of his search spotted the US carrier. From first contact to the second message about the US ships was almost an hour in between. An hour to determine what they were looking at was was not just ten ships but, the USS Yorktown's battle group.
So when the first American ships are detected, Nagumo could have launched strike from two carriers. No, he wanted the massive over powering strike from four carriers which take time which ultimately caused the defeat.
To his defense, he was a battleship admiral who did not appreciate the assets of aircraft carriers. (Political promotions is what placed him in the position to command a carrier fleet.) At the Battle of Midway, he should have commanded the battleship support fleet not the carrier strike fleet.
His reluctance at Pearl Harbor, prevented a second and third strike that day which would have damaged and destroyed the submarine base, drydocks, fuel storage and, military repair facilities. This allowed the Americans to recover from the attack on 12/07/41. His photo reconaisance after the attack showed the subs at their berths. All reconn photos showed the battleships were no threat and no air attacks could be mounted from the Island of Oahu. His search planes had a greater range than the American carriers planes, so why not look for a day or two for the American carriers?
At the Battle for Midway Island, his lack of decise decisions at critical times made the difference in that battle in losing that battle.
As he sent out his first strike force against the Island of Midway, he had two carriers with reserve aircraft set for a land attack and two others for a sea attack. He also had several dozen fighters providing CAP. Having them 'all' run low on fuel is extremely poor planning. A poor area or sea search to insure no American ships were around (seven search planes) missed a lot. One Japanese search planes passed close to one of the American carrier and didn't see it on his outward bound leg of his search before the second search plane (IJN Tone's scout #4) on his return leg of his search spotted the US carrier. From first contact to the second message about the US ships was almost an hour in between. An hour to determine what they were looking at was was not just ten ships but, the USS Yorktown's battle group.
So when the first American ships are detected, Nagumo could have launched strike from two carriers. No, he wanted the massive over powering strike from four carriers which take time which ultimately caused the defeat.
To his defense, he was a battleship admiral who did not appreciate the assets of aircraft carriers. (Political promotions is what placed him in the position to command a carrier fleet.) At the Battle of Midway, he should have commanded the battleship support fleet not the carrier strike fleet.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
But can you really single Nagumo out as in my opinion the IJN was a giant waste of metal, it was poorly used and badly led right from the start.
After Pearl Harbor which as you have indicated was mismanaged the Japanese surface fleet just seemed to sail from one disaster to the next.
After Pearl Harbor which as you have indicated was mismanaged the Japanese surface fleet just seemed to sail from one disaster to the next.
They did sail from one disaster to another but, with optimism each time that they would win, this time.
Back when the Japanese Navy started to become modern (late 1800s), they modeled the culture of their navy after the Royal Navy. The RN viewed intelligence as "un-gentlemanly!" The signals being sent should be as private as a gentleman receiving mail. A gentleman does not read any other's mail. While other navies started using signal intelligence in the early 1900s, the IJN looked upon this as being beneath them. So at the start of WW-2, they were so far behind in naval intelligence they were not really in the game!
The war in the Pacific was also as 'racial' as it was nationalistic! The US shared with its Allies that it had broken the Japanese naval code. Late in 1943, a German spy in the USSR passed the word to Berlin, which passed it to Tokyo. The Japanese did not believe because, it is so hard for an Occidental to understand regular Japanese, how are they going to understand Japanese that is coded? (Simple, team cryptographer with a translator! No one suspected that the US Navy not being surprised at Midway Island or Adm. Yamamoto being shot down four hundred miles behind from lines as a leak in intelligence?)
The other factor that doomed the IJN promotions during peacetime, often does not place the best warrior leaders in command of combat commands. So, people like Nagumo were symptom of the problem, not just the problem. Without good intelligence leaders make one mistake after another. Nagumo did not believe in carrier warfare, so he often disgard good decisions by competent subordinates because they were pro-carrier warfare and he was still believed in pro-battleship warfare. (Advice such as taking six fleet carriers to Midway in the carrier strike group instead of four.)
Now, even if better leadership existed within the IJN, it was only a matter of time before America's production would over power the Japanese. America beat Japan with only 20% of its production. Europe was America's first priority and 80% of the war production headed across the Atlantic Ocean!
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I have no doubt that the Japanese were always going to lose the war, it was probably the only thing Yamamoto got right when he said that he could buy Japan 6 months by striking Pearl Harbor.
However the Japanese squandered a navy that was more than capable of holding the US fleet at bay for a very long time, on top of this it strikes me that their naval commanders bordered on cowardice, in every engagement (even the ones they had the upper hand in) they got cold feet just after the opening action and spent the rest of the fight looking for a way out.
In the end I think that while I wont disagree that Nagumo was essentially hopeless I really can't separate him from the rest of the Japanese naval command.
However the Japanese squandered a navy that was more than capable of holding the US fleet at bay for a very long time, on top of this it strikes me that their naval commanders bordered on cowardice, in every engagement (even the ones they had the upper hand in) they got cold feet just after the opening action and spent the rest of the fight looking for a way out.
In the end I think that while I wont disagree that Nagumo was essentially hopeless I really can't separate him from the rest of the Japanese naval command.
Point well taken! -Adrian
Late to this thread!
1 "Gen." Custer Custer was promoted from 1st Lt in the US Army to Brigadier General of Volunteers(Union army), remember the US Army & the Union Army were seperate Organizations. By the end of the C.W he was a Major General of Volunteers & a Capt in the US Army. By Little Big Horn he was up to Col. or Lt. Col. Many still refered to his Volunteer rank.
2 "Battle of the Crater" Grant, or Meade, was responcible for the failure of the attack. In case anyone isn't familiar with the plan...Gen Burnside planned to set off a mine under the CS lines. two regiments of the USCT were well trained & were going to attack, one on each side of the crater & rollup the CS line, allowing a break through by the main force. At the last moment Grant, or Meade, panicing over the bad press if a large number of Colored Troops got killed, ordered white infantry to make the assault. Being untrained in the plan, they charged into the crater, it was like shooting fish in a barrell.
3 "Market Garden" At the end of the book "A bridge too far" A Dutch Officer is quoted as telling (someone?) "I see you failed the exam!". It seems an invasion of Holland from the south was the Final Exam in the Dutch War College & anyone trying it the way the Allies did, automaticly failed. No one even botherd to ask the Dutch how to invade thier own Country!
4 Japanese atrocities They did medical experiments that rank right up there with the Nazis, but w/o the publicity that the Nazis got post War. Read that we captured large amounts of documents on the subject that were later returned to the Japanese Govt uncopied or translated.
5 I'll nominate Gen Brereton. Allowed the Far East Air Force to be destroyed on the ground well after news of Pearl Harbor had been recieved.
1 "Gen." Custer Custer was promoted from 1st Lt in the US Army to Brigadier General of Volunteers(Union army), remember the US Army & the Union Army were seperate Organizations. By the end of the C.W he was a Major General of Volunteers & a Capt in the US Army. By Little Big Horn he was up to Col. or Lt. Col. Many still refered to his Volunteer rank.
2 "Battle of the Crater" Grant, or Meade, was responcible for the failure of the attack. In case anyone isn't familiar with the plan...Gen Burnside planned to set off a mine under the CS lines. two regiments of the USCT were well trained & were going to attack, one on each side of the crater & rollup the CS line, allowing a break through by the main force. At the last moment Grant, or Meade, panicing over the bad press if a large number of Colored Troops got killed, ordered white infantry to make the assault. Being untrained in the plan, they charged into the crater, it was like shooting fish in a barrell.
3 "Market Garden" At the end of the book "A bridge too far" A Dutch Officer is quoted as telling (someone?) "I see you failed the exam!". It seems an invasion of Holland from the south was the Final Exam in the Dutch War College & anyone trying it the way the Allies did, automaticly failed. No one even botherd to ask the Dutch how to invade thier own Country!
4 Japanese atrocities They did medical experiments that rank right up there with the Nazis, but w/o the publicity that the Nazis got post War. Read that we captured large amounts of documents on the subject that were later returned to the Japanese Govt uncopied or translated.
5 I'll nominate Gen Brereton. Allowed the Far East Air Force to be destroyed on the ground well after news of Pearl Harbor had been recieved.
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