Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
I've often wondered why the Japanese were allowed more latitude in that regard than the Germans were in regards to how they did the Jews of Europe.
Worst "Commander" of WWII?
I've often wondered why the Japanese were allowed more latitude in that regard than the Germans were in regards to how they did the Jews of Europe.
Infern0
Banned
i would call it a gamble more than a fiasco
and a worthy gamble if it could've shortened the war.
problem was, they disregarded vital intelligence, and it all fell apart.
so you're still left with monty being good at what he did, and IMHO, he was over rated, but no where near the worst commander
mmarsh
Active member
Market Garden was a gamble that failed and turned into a fiasco.
Although the intelligence was bad, the plan itself was deeply poorly though through and executed. For example, it relied on using one sole highway which was heavily defended. Had they used multiple routes of advance they might have quickly flank the German strongpoints.
Another problem was the plan to mix American Airborne with British Armor. The formula of the 101st Airborne and the U.S 2nd Armored Division had proven to be an excellent combo in Normandy. But in Market-Garden the 101st and the British Guards Armored Division (Part of XXX Corps) had never worked together before and it head to some very awkward situations.
BTW the Anniversery of Market-Garden is Monday...
Although the intelligence was bad, the plan itself was deeply poorly though through and executed. For example, it relied on using one sole highway which was heavily defended. Had they used multiple routes of advance they might have quickly flank the German strongpoints.
Another problem was the plan to mix American Airborne with British Armor. The formula of the 101st Airborne and the U.S 2nd Armored Division had proven to be an excellent combo in Normandy. But in Market-Garden the 101st and the British Guards Armored Division (Part of XXX Corps) had never worked together before and it head to some very awkward situations.
BTW the Anniversery of Market-Garden is Monday...
LeEnfield
Active member
It was Patton that kept pushing in the south and taking away troops and supplies from the north that gave the Russians so much more of Eastern Germany than they should taken. These actions by Patton handed most of Germany to the Russians on a plate, Patton like many of the generals of the day where looking towards their own achievements rather than at the bigger picture
Pale Rider
Active member
Not this treadhead, Patton was nothing more than a prema donna who took risks and made decisions that cost alot of lives. His biggest blunder was helping in the decision to use the Sherman series tanks when he knew very well that it did not stand a chance with the German tanks, he traded speed over crew protection and firepower.
Papashah41
Active member
The worst commanders in history could fill a football stadium. but the first two that come to mind are Colonel Custer of Little Bighorn fame and Lord Cardigan of Balaclava fame. Then there is General Braddock of the French and Indian wars. Of course there is also John de Warenne's incredibly stupid move which allowed William Wallace to kill his men who were trapped on Cambuskenneth Bridge near Stirling Castle. This could go on forever so I will say Custer. For the worst commander of WW2, I have to pick General Percival of Singapore fame. He got suckered by a panicky Japanese Commander by the name of Yamashita. My second choice for worst in WW2 is General Fredendall of North Africa fame or is it infamy.
After much after thought I must add some other Military DoDo's to this list. General Lucas of Anzio infamy, General Rudolfo Graziani of North African infamy, General Jurgen Von Arnim who's Motto should have been I'll outdo Rommel even if I must get half my men killed to do it. Actually I'm being unfair. Arnim did good work in Russia and later made the Allies pay dearly in Tunisia.
After much after thought I must add some other Military DoDo's to this list. General Lucas of Anzio infamy, General Rudolfo Graziani of North African infamy, General Jurgen Von Arnim who's Motto should have been I'll outdo Rommel even if I must get half my men killed to do it. Actually I'm being unfair. Arnim did good work in Russia and later made the Allies pay dearly in Tunisia.
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
One of the worst commanders has to be General Douglas Haig. During the Anglo Boer War he ordered troops across open ground to attack well dug in Boers.
During the latter part of WW1, Haig was advised to change his tactics as Britain was rapidly running out of men.
During the latter part of WW1, Haig was advised to change his tactics as Britain was rapidly running out of men.
Good choice for a bad commander.
During the early fighting from Juno beach to Caen a divisional commander by the name of Major General Rod Keller was the epitome of incompetence. I wont get into his gaffes, but the man bungled most things he touched. Simonds wanted him sacked and so did many others including Montgomery. But Keller survived to cause the deaths of many more Canadian soldiers because, the high commander of the Canadian forces, Harry Crerar was his good friend.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Only one slight technical glitch here, I think the question is worst commanders of WW2, there is no doubt your choices would rank highly in a worst commanders of the last 100 years list though.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I realised that after I posted:roll:, although in my defense he deserves to be mentioned as one of the worst commanders ever.
I will however add another one, this time from WW2, Trafford Leigh Mallory of 12 Group during the Battle of Britain.
Some historians have described Leigh-Mallory as an ambitious intriguer and have portrayed him as pompous and arrogant. Montgomery said that he was a "gutless bugger"
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Didn't get that opinion reading second world war histories. I have read that Leigh-Mallory and Montgomery disliked each other. I suppose detested each other would be closer to the truth.
BritinAfrica, I wouldn't take anything Montgomery said as gospel. The man was a pathological liar.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
It is often stated that his staff liked him, but his station commanders didn't. He will always be remembered for the part he played with Douglas Bader, in getting Hugh Dowding and Keith Parks fired.
The old saying, “What goes around, comes around.” Keith Parks took over Leigh-Mallory's job after he was killed.
GreatestAlive
Active member
Montgomery for terrible planning a not willing to listen to his intelligence officers during operation Market-Garden. Wasted the Red Devils and several thousand other soldiers and civilians uneccesarily.
LeEnfield
Active member
What about the errors by Mark Clark, now he gave the American General instructions not to break out of the bridgehead in Salerno until he had enough men and material to the job properly. This gave the Germans enough time to box in the Allied Bridge Head and pound it with artillery.
When Mark Clark Took over the American armies pushing up through Italy he was instructed to forget about Rome and push east across Italy and cut of and destroy the retreating Germans from around Monte Casino. Still Mark Clark went for Rome and had a big parade announcing that he was the first Army Commander to take Rome from the south for two thousand years. In the mean time the German army escaped the trap and the war went on in Italy for almost another year with all the loss of life that it entailed. Mark Clark's excuse was he thought the Germans were in Rome some thing that every one else knew was not true.
When Mark Clark Took over the American armies pushing up through Italy he was instructed to forget about Rome and push east across Italy and cut of and destroy the retreating Germans from around Monte Casino. Still Mark Clark went for Rome and had a big parade announcing that he was the first Army Commander to take Rome from the south for two thousand years. In the mean time the German army escaped the trap and the war went on in Italy for almost another year with all the loss of life that it entailed. Mark Clark's excuse was he thought the Germans were in Rome some thing that every one else knew was not true.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Yes well I think Mark Clark was more interested in making the news than ending the war (but this could also be attributed to Patton as well if you look at the Taskforce he sent to destruction late in the war to rescue his son in law) and I would certainly rate him as one of the worst western allied commanders or WW2.
My guess is that he realised D-Day was only a few days away and decided to try and get his 15 minutes of fame before that swamped the headlines and in doing so let the entire German army in Italy escape thus ensuring tens of thousands more casualties.
However it is very difficult to out do some of the Italian and Russian commanders in over all incompetence.
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jason_420
Active member
I think Mussolini beats Hitler as worst in command. I'm just not sure how much he over ruled his commanders on the ground.