Pale Rider
Active member
You do not have clue on what you are talking about inregards to Chinese tank building capability.
World Tank Ranking
You do not have clue on what you are talking about inregards to Chinese tank building capability.
Pale Rider
Active member
That is totally a false statement, China uses alot of western technology in their tank building capability.
Pale Rider
Active member
And who is gobbling up all the raw materials that it can get its hands on, that is pure speculation on your part.
Jesus Christ man, if Russians say "we sold the fulcrum package to China" and than China gets a shiny new fighter than that means that they use MIG-29 technology.
IF Russia sells the People's Army several of their T-72s of various modernisations and then China presents a new tank it means their new tanks is BASED on T-72.
China can be secretive all it wants but hardcore facts are that most of their equipment is bought from Russia and in Russia that same equipment is already outdated, China has around 300-400 tanks that are equivalent to T-72, they have about 120-150 relatively modern MIG based aircraft and That. Is. It.
There is nothing to discredit, Chinese army operates on trash, they have tanks using technology from the 60s.
2500 type 96 which are typically T-72 equivalents with some slap on addons.
200 type 99 which are T-72 1M equivalents since they've been building on the old T-64/72 designs.
There's also around 6000 tanks of various older types which are simply not worth mentioning since they're ancient variants of T-55 and the like.
All of their IFVs are copies of soviet equipment, older ones, if not for nuclear weapons China would be defenceless against Russia or US.
Pale Rider
Active member
Israel is not only assisting China but alot of other countries also, there is nothing wrong with this. India turned to Israel when they were having FCS overheating issues on the T-90S, they are currently in the running for a new ERA package for Indian BMP 2 series vehicles, they are also willing to assist with KE projectile technology, oh my, I could go on for hours.
No its not, China didnt 'have' advanced scientific base & industry untill late, comrade Mao made sure of that, one of the reasons they have such military is because 90% of science needs to be bought rather than developed.
Heck even Poland has access to superior technologies and materials.
Pale Rider
Active member
A type 98 or 99 is not even close to being a Russian T-72, do you even realize which Eastern country has more influence on Chinese tank design versus Russia.
Pale Rider
Active member
What the hell does Comrade MAO have to do with Chinese tank capability, they do not need to come up with their own technologies, they can buy it and set up facilities inside of their own country, which country these days do not do this, including the Russians and the U.S.
Type 99 is a further development of type 98 which has many features of T-72 and T-80, the difference is superior electronic, additional armor slated in the Leo2 fashion and adding an autoloader and automatic transmission, there's also improved gun stabilization and thermal optics, Russians are pissed off because China apparently even copied their ARENA on it ( though apparently something was added ).
But enlighten me which countries tanks influenced them more than the ones they have 90% of their technology and experience from ( russian ones ).
Germans did not sell them the Leo license, Americans will 'not' sell them the A1 license, Russians do not sell the license they sell the ready product and all production lines are taken by modernisations of their own armored park or exports to India.
France will not make a deal with China because that'd piss of US and as such France would face pressure from Britain, UK sucks US ***** like a professional ***** so no Challengers either, no one is going to sell China advanced technology in quantity that allows large scale production of existing modern MBTs.
Notice how everyone is trading with everyone, hardware changes hands but China is somehow bypassed in the large scale trade, sure Israel helped here, Russia sold something there but it hardly covers the needs, chinese army is practically riding on bikes and their current level of advancement doesnt give them much hope for better hardware.
In short there is an unofficial embargo on improving chinese hardware.
Pale Rider
Active member
Really, a Type 98/99 is a further development of a Russian T-80 and T-72, my my I know that China purchased a few of both but to say that they copied these tanks not a true statement, the only thing that even resembles a T-72 is the hull frontal and that is it.
No, they did not copy the German Leo 2 series turret, there is a difference in the welding process and the modular armor suite, please keep in mind that Leo 2 series turret is not modular it is laminate based.
Okay. countries that have influenced Chinese tank design would include the following:
Germany - automotive
Ukraine - maingun, projectiles and automotive
France - FCS and modular armor technologies
UK - maingun design, China does make a L7 series barrel, compliments of China.
Israel - tank projectiles.
Why would Russia get pissed at China, they have made tons of cash off of them, mostly aircraft and naval sales, but a few BMP 3 turrets have been sold along with Shtora systems, Arena is currently being evaluated on the decision to purchase is still not been brought to public knowledge.
You also realize that Pakistan purchases the Al Khalid manufacturing rights from China do you not, what tank do you think that this is based off of.
Pale Rider
Active member
That is not true, Russia will sell upgrade kits, France and Germany will sell certain technologies, please research Chinese capabilities before you make a statement like that inregards to their capabilities. And what embargo does everyone have on China, because it is not working.
Look at the new alliances that are being drawn together, Russia and France will sell technology to each other, France will turn arund and assist Ukraine and China in FCS advancements, introduce good sound advice on Modular armor design and technologies. China sells reactive armor technologies to Iran and North Korea, the list goes on and on.
I'm tired and tomorrow the happy days are over and i'm back its back to my unit so my posts will become less frequent, let me tear that crap you posted apart and i'll be off.
Germany had absofukinglutely no part in type 99 desing, you're making it up, the turbo charged diesel was rumoured to be based on german technology but in the same fashion it could be indigenous.
Ammunition is indigenous and are development of older russian rounds or new developments alltogether.
Turret was developed by Shengyang university ( dont remember the name off the top of my head ) and was indigenous, externally it looks like western turrets but the loading and optics are grandchildren of type 98 which in turn got them as evolved versions of russian 64 optics
Type 99 uses a T-72 hull which is a bolt for bolt copy of the T-72 hull with the difference that its one meter longer, the 1200 hp engine was replaced by 1500 hp engine.
As for projectiles it uses russian refleks missile under license, russian era under license, the turret is welded but the autoloader is an exact copy of 2A46M which is a russian design still found in their T-64s.
Dont know where you got Israel or France into the equasion, the only country which in any way contributed was Russia, there's some indigenous technology, most of it based on older russian designs or license russian production, the western elements are the welded turret and arrow shaped armor on it, in every other respect this tank is compatibile with T-72M.
When that happens we can talk, for now China is stuck with an army which uses mostly 60s-70s equipment and there is no talk of prospective imports.
Pale Rider
Active member
Then you better be off to your unit because it is apparent that you do not have a clue on what you are talking about, do some research before you start spouting off with the likes of me, you do not have a clue on what I do for a living.
No need to talk, you need to do some better research on Chinese capabilities before participating in this conversation.
Last edited by a moderator:
I've adressed your opinion and posts in another topic but i'll do the same here, basically your posts in both our discussions are absolute made up horseshit.
China has 1200 fighter craft active - none stored, 500 of these are antiquated MiG derivatives.
Russia has 900 modern fighter craft and an estimated 3000 stored plus 450 ground attack aircraft that can double as fighter craft when compared to older Chinese aircraft.
We're not going to touch US airforce because that would be overkill, China as compared to other superpowers or even 1st world western states is technologically some 20 years behind.
China has 1200 fighter craft active - none stored, 500 of these are antiquated MiG derivatives.
Russia has 900 modern fighter craft and an estimated 3000 stored plus 450 ground attack aircraft that can double as fighter craft when compared to older Chinese aircraft.
We're not going to touch US airforce because that would be overkill, China as compared to other superpowers or even 1st world western states is technologically some 20 years behind.
Pale Rider
Active member
And what is your point, also you should know that alot of those Russian aircraft are being cannibalized for spare parts, same thing holds true for their armor, it is just sitting around and rusting.
My point is that China does not have a modern army but merely a modernized one with most relatively modern elements bought from Russia and 90% of their hardware either copied or basing largely on russian designs so your claim of this mysterious "Chinese capacity" is taken from the moon.
As for Russia it can cannibalize all it want, they have so much spare hardware they'll be able to flood any one of their neighbours including China for years to come.
Pale Rider
Active member
And 80 % of Russian equipment is not as modern as their western counterparts. Again, I have given you countries that have assisted with China`s tank building capability, and you pretty much thought that I was feeding you a line of crap, so be it and think what you want.
johnnyQAMR
Active member
Nice one pale rider, I agree with you. Just look at the Type 90-II, it's out of date now (came out in the early 90's) but even it had a engine based on the British Perkins CV12-1200 (1,200hp at 2,300rpm) similar to the one in the Challenger 1 & 2 and a French ESM 500 transmission.