Whispering Death
Active member
They'll probobly be edited out. But yeah, that's pretty brutal.
Who commit the Worst War Crime of ALL
This is the true picture:
1. Stalin (he even brutalized his own men and murderer of millions)
2. Nazis (murdered huge number of civilians including mass murder of different races)
3. Imperial Japanese of WWII
4. USA (Vietnam, Philipines and IRAQ)
5. Saddam (IRAN and his attrocities on his own men)
1. Stalin (he even brutalized his own men and murderer of millions)
2. Nazis (murdered huge number of civilians including mass murder of different races)
3. Imperial Japanese of WWII
4. USA (Vietnam, Philipines and IRAQ)
5. Saddam (IRAN and his attrocities on his own men)
Whispering Death
Active member
TBA_PAKI said:
You're kidding me.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
You asked about countries - but
You asked which country committed the worst war crimes, but I would like to point out one very glaring point -
You could take all of the deaths committed during warfare between two or more countries and you will not come up with a number that can even approach the number of deaths that have been carried out in the name of religion.
Every major religion in the world espouses peace and has done so since the dawn of time and every religion has had their history of a holy "crusade". If someone can come up with a simple reason that could explain the human behavior that allows men (and women) to use every imaginable form of torture and mayhem to kill another human being because their religious beliefs differ from theirs, I would surely like to hear it. I consider deaths through a holy crusade or jihad (religious war) to be the most wasted of things on earth.
Whether you worship Jesus, Mohamed, Mother Nature, Shiva, or the gods of a thousand names - one thing is as sure as a sunrise and a sunset, some religious fanatic will arise through the history of time to start another holy war and millions of people will die or suffer because of it.
Direct observable proof of my commentary is all around us. We are presently involved in war where one of the parties involved in this conflict is certifiably fanatical to the point that they believe that if they die for their religion they will immediately go to an imaginary heaven where they will be waited on hand and foot by 1000 virgins. Just how kookoo is that.
SOOOO - I rest my case - religion has caused the worst war crimes in history.
You asked which country committed the worst war crimes, but I would like to point out one very glaring point -
You could take all of the deaths committed during warfare between two or more countries and you will not come up with a number that can even approach the number of deaths that have been carried out in the name of religion.
Every major religion in the world espouses peace and has done so since the dawn of time and every religion has had their history of a holy "crusade". If someone can come up with a simple reason that could explain the human behavior that allows men (and women) to use every imaginable form of torture and mayhem to kill another human being because their religious beliefs differ from theirs, I would surely like to hear it. I consider deaths through a holy crusade or jihad (religious war) to be the most wasted of things on earth.
Whether you worship Jesus, Mohamed, Mother Nature, Shiva, or the gods of a thousand names - one thing is as sure as a sunrise and a sunset, some religious fanatic will arise through the history of time to start another holy war and millions of people will die or suffer because of it.
Direct observable proof of my commentary is all around us. We are presently involved in war where one of the parties involved in this conflict is certifiably fanatical to the point that they believe that if they die for their religion they will immediately go to an imaginary heaven where they will be waited on hand and foot by 1000 virgins. Just how kookoo is that.
SOOOO - I rest my case - religion has caused the worst war crimes in history.
Whispering Death
Active member
I'm with you on that one Chief Bones.
Let's not forget that the deadly chemical agent Sarin has only been used twice in the history of mankind. One was by Saddam Hussein and the other was by a Japanese religion who believed they could bring on the apocalypse (and therefore their own salvation) by gassing Tokyo with Sarin and blaming another country to make Japan go to war.
Only religion would be responsible for such illogic and inhumanity.
Let's not forget that the deadly chemical agent Sarin has only been used twice in the history of mankind. One was by Saddam Hussein and the other was by a Japanese religion who believed they could bring on the apocalypse (and therefore their own salvation) by gassing Tokyo with Sarin and blaming another country to make Japan go to war.
Only religion would be responsible for such illogic and inhumanity.
AussieNick
Forum Digger
War crimes, or crimes against humanity?
Crimes against humanity- The Nazis
War Crimes - The Japanese
Against Australians for example;
•Using Australian soldiers tied to trees for bayonet practice at Milne Bay, Tol and Waitavalo.
•Thai-Burma railway and Hellfire Pass (need I say any more)
•Sandakan Death March
•Changi
•Tamarkan POW camp
•Chungkai (A sight where 1168 Australian bodies were exhumed)
•The sinking of the coastal steamer Vyner Brooke, and the subsequent massacre of Australian Nurses.
•The first Japanese massacre of Australians at Parit Sulong on the west coast of Malaya
•The Laha airfield massacre (involving Australians, Dutch, British and US soldiers killed)
They are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head, there are many other examples of Japanese torturing Australians within earshot of other Aussies. Eating them when food was low etc etc etc.
Crimes against humanity- The Nazis
War Crimes - The Japanese
Against Australians for example;
•Using Australian soldiers tied to trees for bayonet practice at Milne Bay, Tol and Waitavalo.
•Thai-Burma railway and Hellfire Pass (need I say any more)
•Sandakan Death March
•Changi
•Tamarkan POW camp
•Chungkai (A sight where 1168 Australian bodies were exhumed)
•The sinking of the coastal steamer Vyner Brooke, and the subsequent massacre of Australian Nurses.
•The first Japanese massacre of Australians at Parit Sulong on the west coast of Malaya
•The Laha airfield massacre (involving Australians, Dutch, British and US soldiers killed)
They are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head, there are many other examples of Japanese torturing Australians within earshot of other Aussies. Eating them when food was low etc etc etc.
I do not hate Americans but history shows us that they have also commited one of the worst crimes in the garb of free world policies.bulldogg said:
Vietnam (US Largest War-Crime):
Vietnam is the biggest example. That nation wanted freedom and it drove the French out but USA (in order to contain Communism) went there and look what happened.
US dropped more bombs in Vietnam then it did in entire WW II. Many American soldiers died there for no reason. There was huge un-rest in US due to mass protests by ordinary Americans. And large number of war crimes took place there (in Vietnam) under the guise of fighting the communists.
It took lives of 2 million Vietnamese and complete destruction of that nation to make US realize its mistake.
IRAQ (US 2nd Largest War-Crime):
When Saddam was involved in war against IRAN, dou you remember that who gave him those chemical weapons (including deadly VX agent)?
Ans: It was the work of US govt.
Then in 1990, when IRAQ invaded Kuwait, US tone suddenly changed but still I feel that 1991 GULF WAR was justified as Saddam had no right to take-over any independent nation.
I support US action on this one but after that war US imposed very strong sanctions on that crippled nation and these sanctions continued for 13 years which resulted in deaths of 2 million Iraqi children. An entire Iraqi race was destroyed for enemity with Saddam, why?
US managed to dismantle all Iraqi weapons programs by 1998 and Saddam made UN weapons inspectors leave the country because he had a reason for it. But US still questioned his legtimacy.
Now in 2003, when everybody knew that IRAQ was not involved in attacks of US soil and North Korea posed a bigger threat to its security, US govt still decided to attack this already crippled nation under the pretext of false claims that IRAQ has deadly weapons when everybody knew that this was fake and entire world was against this move.
IRAQ was captured under this false pretext and still the fight rages after 2 years of captivity with no solution yet. Under Saddam this nation was still managed but now under US, this nation has turned in to a breeding ground for more Terrorists. Thanks to US policy makers.
Now more then 100,000 Iraqis have been killed in this latest war with no security in nation and destruction in every corner and the toll is rising day-by-day.
Isn't this a major war-crime that to punish one stupid person, you made the entire nation suffer?
I am sorry for my explanations but you people take things very lightly. Let me tell you one thing "Two wrongs does not makes any thing Right"
Saddam was bad for his people but US made no good either.
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mmarsh
Active member
Please Clarify, are we discussing who committed the most number of crimes or who committed the most number of deaths?
I would say it either case its the USSR under Stalin. Hitler killed about 20,000,000 Stalin is estimated at about 40,000,000. If were are talking # of crimes I would say Stalin again, because Stalin was in power 25 years while Hitler was in power for 13 years.
I would say it either case its the USSR under Stalin. Hitler killed about 20,000,000 Stalin is estimated at about 40,000,000. If were are talking # of crimes I would say Stalin again, because Stalin was in power 25 years while Hitler was in power for 13 years.
Doppleganger
Active member
mmarsh said:
Doesn't it also depend on how they were killed, and why? For example, a good chunk of the above figures are combat casualties.
I'd say the chief difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Hitler tried to literally exterminate an entire race for political and ideological reasons, whereas Stalin simply got rid of people that were in his way. A gross simplification but essentially true.
godofthunder9010
Active member
Some older cases of Crimes Against Humanity that ought not to be forgotten:
The Spaniards near total annihilation of the Native American tribes of Central and South America. We know that the tally in death was over 20 million, but I don't know of a dependable source for anything exact.
The Mongols killed at least 10 million people in their conquests, but that number represented a much much larger percentage of the population of the world at that time.
Turkey's very own holocaust, massacring the Armenian people during World War I. The number dead was somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 million. What's worse, Hitler saw the world completely ignore that particular holocaust/genocide and figured that nobody would notice his own.
TBA-PAKI, you offer an interesting series of points there and its an interesting perspective, certainly. I think that the USA and Iraq doesn't exactly qualify as the type of warcrimes as most of us think of them: Intentionally wiping out or murdering people, with the sole purpose of erasing their very existance. Lets be clear though. The sanctions were not imposed by the US. They were imposed by the UN. The US was the only one enforcing them for the most part, but if there is any guilt, the entire UN shares it. Besides that, Saddam was 100% capable of having the sanctions lifted, but he was too much the arrogant bastard to come clean. All he needed to do was comply with what he had already agreed to do and allow for completely unhindered inspections, etc. He refused. The deaths of his people are more on his head than anyone else's. Also, how much death in Iraq was malicious and intentional on the part of the USA? Compare that to the exploits of Ghengis Khan and those who came after him: If a city refused to surrender, the Mongols beseiged, eventually took the city, killed every living thing in it (men, women, children, and even animals often times), razed the city to the ground and left. A couple days later, they returned and killed anyone who had managed to hide or escape, catching them after they returned to the city. Now tell me this, has the United States every done anything even remotely like that in Iraq?
The Spaniards near total annihilation of the Native American tribes of Central and South America. We know that the tally in death was over 20 million, but I don't know of a dependable source for anything exact.
The Mongols killed at least 10 million people in their conquests, but that number represented a much much larger percentage of the population of the world at that time.
Turkey's very own holocaust, massacring the Armenian people during World War I. The number dead was somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 or 5 million. What's worse, Hitler saw the world completely ignore that particular holocaust/genocide and figured that nobody would notice his own.
TBA-PAKI, you offer an interesting series of points there and its an interesting perspective, certainly. I think that the USA and Iraq doesn't exactly qualify as the type of warcrimes as most of us think of them: Intentionally wiping out or murdering people, with the sole purpose of erasing their very existance. Lets be clear though. The sanctions were not imposed by the US. They were imposed by the UN. The US was the only one enforcing them for the most part, but if there is any guilt, the entire UN shares it. Besides that, Saddam was 100% capable of having the sanctions lifted, but he was too much the arrogant bastard to come clean. All he needed to do was comply with what he had already agreed to do and allow for completely unhindered inspections, etc. He refused. The deaths of his people are more on his head than anyone else's. Also, how much death in Iraq was malicious and intentional on the part of the USA? Compare that to the exploits of Ghengis Khan and those who came after him: If a city refused to surrender, the Mongols beseiged, eventually took the city, killed every living thing in it (men, women, children, and even animals often times), razed the city to the ground and left. A couple days later, they returned and killed anyone who had managed to hide or escape, catching them after they returned to the city. Now tell me this, has the United States every done anything even remotely like that in Iraq?
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Japan had murdered 30 million Chinese and 1 million Koreans. And millions of other races. The USA actually helped with the coverup of the Holocaust done by the Japs so they could have Japan as an ally against the Soviet Union.
USA has also done a war crime of attempting to mask over 32 million killed the Japanese.
Its a shame that not even Japan's own people know about this, only a few by the words of WWII veterans.
Japan's continual denial and refusal to apologize is hurting the relationship between other asian countries.
People won't so easily forget the massacreing of over 32 million people.
Not much of the world knows or cares about this, unless it happens to them.
USA has also done a war crime of attempting to mask over 32 million killed the Japanese.
Its a shame that not even Japan's own people know about this, only a few by the words of WWII veterans.
Japan's continual denial and refusal to apologize is hurting the relationship between other asian countries.
People won't so easily forget the massacreing of over 32 million people.
Not much of the world knows or cares about this, unless it happens to them.
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Your points are valid in some context too.godofthunder9010 said:
But the problem is that IRAQ (an entire nation) is totally crippled by the heavy sanctions and now the recent war has brought more pain to Iraqi people then making things better for them. We can blame insurgents but let me tell you that these insurgents only want US to leave and thats it.
Being part of a civilized world, US itself has voilated UN charter and commited a major war-crime by capturing and enforcing its right on an already crippled nation or VICTIM country.
Saddam was at least keeping the country in order but US intervention under false pretext that Iraq has deadly weapons brought more pain to that nation. People are dying over there on daily basis.
Just imagine the entire scenario that what if US had to face the same fate then what you ordinary Americans and soldiers would do in such circumstances?
We cannot take things for granted and make decisions solely based on our ideologies and neglect other prespectives.
Iraqi citizens first suffered from Saddam and since Gulf War, they suffered from the clutches of strict sanctions for 13 years by UN-US agenda and now since 2 years, directly from US.
Just imagine the period of 15 years of pain and still it is not over.
About Saddam's stupidity, The worst he did was to shoot down a US predator drone and did not allowed inspections in his palaces. But that might be for privacy reasons. I don't have much words for his foolishness though.
But this war had made both Saddam and Bush culprits.
For Mongols: Lets not forget that they were barbarians with no regard for humanity. Contrary to this US is part of a civilized world and its ambitions are bound to be better.
But even US has commited some serious crimes in IRAQ.
In the battle of Fallujah, US forces used chemical weapons against insurgents.
The horrible abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Abu-Gharab prison will remain fresh for very long times in minds of many people. Despite that US is signatory to Geneva Conventions.
Many cities in IRAQ including Najaf has been razed to the ground despite of the knowledge that Iraqi people want freedom and not US intervention in their affairs and even Shia people revolted against them. But US media continues to paint the image that Iraqis are content with US intervention.
I tell you one thing that many insurgents in IRAQ are ordinary citizens fighting for freedom.
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Two things come to mind when I read this.
One, is bull :cen:. If this statement were true they would NOT be attacking other Iraqis. Full stop.
Two, are you an insurgent or do you personally know insurgents in order to make this claim with a sense of authority as you imply with the phrase "let me tell you"??
Attacking another country is NOT a "war crime". It might violate international law but it is not a war crime. War crimes include many things such as genocide and purposeful targetting of civilians. Do you have specific charges to level against the US and coalition forces and if so may I be so bold as to ask for proof that we can all verify?
Yes, Hitler and Stalin also did very good jobs of maintaining order in their countries as well. As for your last sentence here, its a war zone, people die in a war. Were it not for the insurgents continued actions against coalition forces and Iraqis there would be no war right now regardless of who started it. Its continued action is the result of TWO parties not ONE.
What praytell are you on about with this? What was taken for granted?? Decisions are made on ideology and nothing else day in and day out. Its called free will and its something most people exercise. Thank you for trying to dictate to everyone else how things should be done in the "World According to Paki" but no thanks.
The first Gulf War was a direct result of open aggression by Saddam against his neighbour. The resulting war to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait was sanctioned and approved by ALL Islamic middle-eastern countries and so were the resulting sanctions to keep him in check. The suffering of the Iraqi people is correctly blamed at the feet of the their leader NOT the US.
Your compassion is so moving. Shall we pause together my friend and consider the plight of the Kurdish minority in Turkey and their suffering for the last oh, lets just limit it to the last 40 years just for simplicity's sake. Shall we? Or is your compassion only extended to those who serve your underlying agenda of hate?
Indeed the scope of your hatred seems rivalled only by the powers of your amnesia. Violating sanctions. Threatening to start a new war. Expelling inspectors. Torturing and murdering Iraqis and Kurds. My you have a strange value system by which you measure the mettle of a leader's actions.
White phosphorous is not a chemical weapon. If it were a chemical weapon then every soldier who has ever fired a weapon with tracer rounds in it has used chemical weapons. Sarin, mustard gas and the like ARE chemical weapons.
Aye and I am sure the Iraqis with better memories will recall far numerous and far worse crimes of abuse under your hero Saddam's reign.
As was Cologne, Dresden, Berlin and numerous other cities during World War II alone. This too shall pass and people will rebuild once peace comes just as people have done for thousands of years. Get over it.
Again I ask, are you an insurgent or do you have special knowledge of the Iraqi insurgents that allows you to make such claims of authority??
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Definition of "Chemical Weapons"
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.sciencecoalition.org/glossary/glossary_main.htm
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://dtirp.dtra.mil/tic/CWC/cw_glsry.htm
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/postwar/postwar_taba.htm
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.sciencecoalition.org/glossary/glossary_main.htm
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://dtirp.dtra.mil/tic/CWC/cw_glsry.htm
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons
Definition of "White phosphorous"
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/postwar/postwar_taba.htm
As you can see WP does not fit the internationally accepted definitions of what a chemical weapon is.
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People who are fighting over there want US forces out of the country and they are putting pressure on those Iraqis who are co-operating with US forces. They already warned Iraqi people to not to co-operate with US forces.bulldogg said:
And what about when ordinary Iraqi civilians protest against US forces and they get shot by BFV's and Abrams. Have you forgot those images?
Not to forget the targeting and shooting on Al-Jazeera reporters. Is this free will?
Remember your own statement now that this is war and people are bound to get hurt. So both the insurgents and your Coalition Troops are to be blamed or should I say, involved in war-crimes?
Some insurgents are fighting for there agenda but many of them are ordinary or former Iraqi soldiers who want US to move out. I read this from lots of Media Sources.
It might not be a war-crime, in case if a nation is a major threat to your security but IRAQ was not a threat to US. It wasn't even involved in 9/11 attacks on US soil.Bulldogg said:
All Mr. Bush wanted was to remove Saddam from power (for no valid reasons) and to do this he bluffed with UN using false reports of CIA that IRAQ was developing WMD's. He used this reason to portray that Saddam will kill many Americans in the near future if left alone, although he was not capable to do so.
This is more like a personal enemity and not for a good reason. Also OIL was one of driving forces. His arrogance and poor judgement had brought terrible consequences for Iraqi people. Not even UN but some of his European Allies forbade him to make such a move and he did not listened.
I have met some people who went to IRAQ for business and they were surprised by the Anti-US sentiments over there.
And here you come and tell me that it was just a move against International LAW. Any ordinary war is a move against International Law but a war fought for personal enemity is indeed a War-Crime.
Hitler and Stalin are one of the worst in my books, so why quote them?Bulldogg said:
Seriously, do you expect to march in a nation under pretext of freedom ny making false claims and then expect people to bow before your cause. You are seriously wrong then my mate!
Iraqi Insurgency is Anti-US and against its puppet Iraqi regime. Although some Iraqi black-sheeps or foriegners might be looking forward to their own agenda.
And bringing more pain to already Iraqi patients (I might call them) is worst form of ignorance you can think of. War brought more pain and no relief to already suffering Iraqis, so why resources are being wasted on such a foolish endeavour?
Yeah! deciding fate of others is an act of Free Will for you, even if that decision brings pain to somebody or an entire nation.Bulldogg said:
And defying UN Charter is one act of Free Will. We only a need a couple of more nations like this to annihilate peace from the region in the garb of Free Will.
I know the reasons for first Gulf War and if you were reading my posts properly then you would not have bothered with this.Bulldogg said:
This was my point in one of posts about 1st Gulf War in this thread:
Try to read my posts clearly.
So does yours.Bulldogg said:
And to bring peace to Kurdish, we needed to slaughter large number of Sunnis. Game over. No solution.
If you knew some more about Kurdish then you would know that they were looking forward to independant nation which meant splitting up of IRAQ and even Turkish govt is also keeping Kurdish at bay for this very reason. What do you think of this then?
Even after 1991, Kurdish revolted against Saddam and they paid a dearing price for that very reason. So why did they revolted in the first place if they knew that Saddam was a mad man and he could lower himself to any state to complete his agenda?
Try to find this reason.
And your allegience to US propaganda is also speaking volumes.Bulldogg said:
Enforcing heavy Sanctions that costed lives of many children. Who enforced them?
Ans: US under UN
Threatening to start a new war?
Ans: I am amazed. Was Iraq capable of doing that after Gulf War? I don't think so!
And who attacked in the end?
Ans: US did.
Torturing and Murdering Iraqis?
First it was Saddam and sadly US also fell for his cause by doing the same thing.:drink:
My you have a strange value system by which you measure the mettle of a leader's actions.
And you have strange value to ignore Bush arrogance.
Agreed Sir!Bulldogg said:
No comments here.
Yeah! they will remember both Saddam and Bush in harsh terms.Bulldogg said:
By the way, Saddam is not my hero.
Yes! I agree!Bulldogg said:
No! visit IRAQ for better answers.Bulldogg said:
Thanks!
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Paki, you've caved in so bad I actually feel guilty and will quit while you're still able to look in the mirror. By all means continue to tilt at windmills but owing to the lack of coherence and intelligence in your response I will no longer respond to your posts... you have now joined my "ignore" list. Cheers.