Were Draft Dodgers Cowards?
I will give Major L. some backing in this statement (thank God I am not junior anymore). I won't go so far to call others pawns, but I would consider myself one when I am drafted to go to war (which I would) and fight hard for Hill 937 for example. You kill and you see comrades fall and for what? To retreat to your fire-base so that the enemy can gain control again of that same hill.
I find the Vietnam war in particular a war where people were used as pawns. The hidden political agenda made people (read fighting men) expendable. During my time in the States I had some teachers who were Vets. None of them had warm memories towards this war only towards their fellow soldiers. And some of them sure as hell felt like they had been pawns, sacrificed for a greater cause that never became quit clear.
I find the Vietnam war in particular a war where people were used as pawns. The hidden political agenda made people (read fighting men) expendable. During my time in the States I had some teachers who were Vets. None of them had warm memories towards this war only towards their fellow soldiers. And some of them sure as hell felt like they had been pawns, sacrificed for a greater cause that never became quit clear.
Forrest_Gump
Active member
Ted, don't take the following as a flame or a dig, but more like a question from a guy that has spent almost 2/3rds of his life in one uniform or another.
You sound young, and you also sound like you've never been in danger on behalf of your country or community. If I'm wrong on either account please forgive me. Claiming that you would go, while noble, and a point getter, the "if I were drafted" part is worrisome.
My question is this: Under what circumstances would you choose to volunteer to don a uniform, and serve your country and community?
Probably like the generation before saw mine, I see many things in the next generation that leave me cold inside. Before 9/11 I had serious doubts that the kids today would ever have the will to fight for anything other than the newest Rap CD. I for the most part have been proven wrong. There is a rather sizeable chunk of the "I'm for me" generation that are proving that they can see beyond themselves and are proving to be the best of us.
I grew up listening to war stories told by family members after they had consumed large quantities of adult beverages (and only when they were tanked, never when sober). Suffice to say, none of these stories had happy beginings, middles, or ends. With the exception of being sober, I have done the same with my kids. I have never pulled punches about the horrors I have seen, and I have never suggested military service as part of their future. Yet, I now have one sitting in Okinawa waiting to go to the sandbox, one married to a Stryker serving in Mosul, and my youngest started talking last night about leaving college to serve. The common thread through 4 generations of my family is "service". None of us has ever been drafted, and most of us have served to one extent or another. Some, such as myself, have gone onto serving our communities. Still serving, still in harms way. BTW if your wondering, most of us at some time or another have had troubling questions about the "why's", yet we still served.
As I said before I'm not trying to take a shot at you, I'm just wondering how one such as yourself thinks. Do you think you owe something to the country that has given much to you? Do you think this country owes you something? Is the slate just blank?
As far as everyone else: I still believe that those that ran were cowards.
I also read the GQ article when it came out. More cowards. "My recruiter lied", :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: News Flash!!! Mine lied to me to. But unlike these whiney prisses at least I was bright enough to realize that I joined an organization that was going to teach me how to kill, and at some point they may require me to do so, whether I agreed with it or not.
You sound young, and you also sound like you've never been in danger on behalf of your country or community. If I'm wrong on either account please forgive me. Claiming that you would go, while noble, and a point getter, the "if I were drafted" part is worrisome.
My question is this: Under what circumstances would you choose to volunteer to don a uniform, and serve your country and community?
Probably like the generation before saw mine, I see many things in the next generation that leave me cold inside. Before 9/11 I had serious doubts that the kids today would ever have the will to fight for anything other than the newest Rap CD. I for the most part have been proven wrong. There is a rather sizeable chunk of the "I'm for me" generation that are proving that they can see beyond themselves and are proving to be the best of us.
I grew up listening to war stories told by family members after they had consumed large quantities of adult beverages (and only when they were tanked, never when sober). Suffice to say, none of these stories had happy beginings, middles, or ends. With the exception of being sober, I have done the same with my kids. I have never pulled punches about the horrors I have seen, and I have never suggested military service as part of their future. Yet, I now have one sitting in Okinawa waiting to go to the sandbox, one married to a Stryker serving in Mosul, and my youngest started talking last night about leaving college to serve. The common thread through 4 generations of my family is "service". None of us has ever been drafted, and most of us have served to one extent or another. Some, such as myself, have gone onto serving our communities. Still serving, still in harms way. BTW if your wondering, most of us at some time or another have had troubling questions about the "why's", yet we still served.
As I said before I'm not trying to take a shot at you, I'm just wondering how one such as yourself thinks. Do you think you owe something to the country that has given much to you? Do you think this country owes you something? Is the slate just blank?
As far as everyone else: I still believe that those that ran were cowards.
I also read the GQ article when it came out. More cowards. "My recruiter lied", :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: News Flash!!! Mine lied to me to. But unlike these whiney prisses at least I was bright enough to realize that I joined an organization that was going to teach me how to kill, and at some point they may require me to do so, whether I agreed with it or not.
No worries Forrest, no offence was taken and I reckon your questions are fair. I too come from a family where the military play a prominent role. Since I am from German decendence, I have had relatives getting killed on both world wars and cousins serving on the East- West border afterwards.
I myself wanted to join the military and saw that as my life vocation, but fate decided different. A freak accident made me unfit to serve and I chose an academic career in civilian life. Soldiers always have and always will have my utmost respect, that is the least I can give them.
It is however my studie of military geography and history that also made me sceptical on how the soldiers were often put to use. Screbrenica tainted the Dutch military eventhough it was politics that put them in that predicament. Many many other similar stories made me think that involuntary service isn't the way to go. The ones that join choose a life of obedience, but the others didn't choose. As I said, I was drafted when I turned 18, but never passed the physical. I do know that if I did, I would have volunteered to go abroad. But I can understand that people really do not want to join. That is the point I tried to make. I would do it differently, but I can understand them.
(p.s. I am 34, but still feel young
)
I myself wanted to join the military and saw that as my life vocation, but fate decided different. A freak accident made me unfit to serve and I chose an academic career in civilian life. Soldiers always have and always will have my utmost respect, that is the least I can give them.
It is however my studie of military geography and history that also made me sceptical on how the soldiers were often put to use. Screbrenica tainted the Dutch military eventhough it was politics that put them in that predicament. Many many other similar stories made me think that involuntary service isn't the way to go. The ones that join choose a life of obedience, but the others didn't choose. As I said, I was drafted when I turned 18, but never passed the physical. I do know that if I did, I would have volunteered to go abroad. But I can understand that people really do not want to join. That is the point I tried to make. I would do it differently, but I can understand them.
(p.s. I am 34, but still feel young
)Forrest_Gump
Active member
Well Ted, it's a rare man that makes it that far in life and still writes with passion and sincerity. Considering how few can even write, it puts you into a rare category.
I to have spent considerable time in the study of history. And I will agree with you on the point that there have been times that soldiers lives have been spent in foolish enterprises. Unfortunatley it's the nature of the beast. I feel that one must have faith that when sent, it's for the greater good. Sometimes that "greater good" being something that's intangible to you. And one must accept that sometimes that "greater good" isn't.
I also believe that everyone who lives in a free country should be compelled to serve. I don't mean something like a military draft, I just want to make that point clear right up front. But rather a choice of paths that everyone would have to choose from. For those that do not want to be in the military, they could choose something like a revamped CCC, or any other program that would serve the Nation as a whole. Rich or poor everyone would go. The only exceptions would be along the lines of mental incompetance (yes future politicians would still have to go), real physical problems (crippled folks and so forth could still go if something could be found for them, if they so chose), and truly gifted folks (like a 16 year old who's about to graduate from MIT, they will already give plenty back).
As for the original question: I still stand by my belief that when your country calls, you go. If you run, I wash my hands of you. I don't want one more cent going towards protecting you, caring for you, educating you, providing roads for you to drive on, providing clean water for you to drink, taking care of your sewage, or having my airwaves polluted with whatever you have to say. As far as I'm concerned you're as dead as those in the ground at Arlington. But unlike them, you have no honor. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't even be allowed to pollute the same soil that covers those that did go, even if they did not believe, and paid the ultimate price.
I to have spent considerable time in the study of history. And I will agree with you on the point that there have been times that soldiers lives have been spent in foolish enterprises. Unfortunatley it's the nature of the beast. I feel that one must have faith that when sent, it's for the greater good. Sometimes that "greater good" being something that's intangible to you. And one must accept that sometimes that "greater good" isn't.
I also believe that everyone who lives in a free country should be compelled to serve. I don't mean something like a military draft, I just want to make that point clear right up front. But rather a choice of paths that everyone would have to choose from. For those that do not want to be in the military, they could choose something like a revamped CCC, or any other program that would serve the Nation as a whole. Rich or poor everyone would go. The only exceptions would be along the lines of mental incompetance (yes future politicians would still have to go), real physical problems (crippled folks and so forth could still go if something could be found for them, if they so chose), and truly gifted folks (like a 16 year old who's about to graduate from MIT, they will already give plenty back).
As for the original question: I still stand by my belief that when your country calls, you go. If you run, I wash my hands of you. I don't want one more cent going towards protecting you, caring for you, educating you, providing roads for you to drive on, providing clean water for you to drink, taking care of your sewage, or having my airwaves polluted with whatever you have to say. As far as I'm concerned you're as dead as those in the ground at Arlington. But unlike them, you have no honor. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't even be allowed to pollute the same soil that covers those that did go, even if they did not believe, and paid the ultimate price.
FULLMETALJACKET
MilForum Bad Apple
cowards.
major liability
Active member
You guys seem to think that I hate those who fought in Vietnam. No, I admire their courage, and they had great value. But I still think they were used as pawns. Was the Vietnam War really defending America? Or was it a waste of many American lives?
But Forrest, isn't what you are implying something from the past? How would you want to do this in this age? I see many administrative problems. On the other hand I too think that this is glue for more social adhesion. We had that during the cold war. If you were a moral opponent to service, you had to do community work. For example helping with the handicapped or work in hospitals. And I too think this helps creating society that is closer to the people.
(This doesn't solve the problems of needless deaths of those that serve, but that is another discussion.)
(This doesn't solve the problems of needless deaths of those that serve, but that is another discussion.)
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
What an absolutely stupid and ignorant commentary.........all war deaths are a waste....that is the nature of war. From the dawn of time to present day, governments for one reason or another have decided that it is necessary to resort to armed confrontation with another force. And by the way, not all wars are waged in the defense of country.....or....have you forgotten the deadliest wars were wars over religion???????? Warriors go where they are sent and fight whatever armies face them...the right or wrong of it does not and can not enter into whether they fight or not....that is.....unless you are advocating chaos. Society has evolved and science has been spurred to draconian heights BECAUSE of warriors going into battle for whatever reason........but.......as Forrest Gump said:major liability said:
AFTER ALL...THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS Were Draft Dodgers Cowards? IT WAS NOT WERE VIETNAM VETS PAWNS ETC.......every warrior lost in combat COULD be considered to have been a pawn IF you DO NOT believe there is a just reason for war.
Forrest_Gump
Active member
Well Ted, just because its from the past doesn't make it bad as far as I'm concerned. Ignorant social injustices such as segregation should stay in the past, but other ideas should come back. The idea that Grandma should live with family as long as possible and not be sent off to a nursing home the first chance is one of them. The concept that a pedophile is a viscious, life destroying predator and not someone who is "sick" and needs treatment at a hospital is another.
Service to ones country and community is another ideal that needs to come back. The youth of today needs the Idea that the world owes them something knocked right out of their brainwashed little minds. I have a lot of contact with 18-25 year olds, and how many of their minds work stuns me. "Me" "me" "me" is the underlying theme of every thing they do. Of course the group on the other end is as scary. This group flies right by country and hops onto the global bandwagon. "The babies in Buttcrackastan are starving and its all the United States fault". Thank God for the group in the middle, I hope they win the moral battle that is fought in every generation.
How to do today? Other than a revamped CCC to deal with parkland and wilderness issues, how about a new WPA? God knows there are tens of thousands of houses to rebuild, dike and levee sytems that need updating, roads and bridges in need of repair, and a few thousand miles of barrier to erect. 2 years of swinging a hammer would instill a sense of ownership (and maybe pride) in your country, not to mention training a workforce that we are in a short supply of. Imagination is the only limiting factor for ideas along these lines.
As far as administration, it's been done before, and without what we would consider "modern" equipment such as cell phones, faxes, or computers. Any costs associated with programs like this would be offset elsewhere in the economy in productivity, and taxes collected.
As far as the original topic goes, the US has had long standing policies regarding people of "conscience". For the true CO there have been options that did not involve killing for your country. For those that chose not to exercise these options, only 2 roads were left. Be a coward and run, or stand up for what you claim are your "convictions" and go to jail. As I've stated before, I at least have some respect for those that chose the latter.
For the fence sitters, people who think they know about the Vietnam War, and people who really do, I suggest reading Jim Dunnigan's "Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War".
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Allright, you turned me over Forest. They should not have run away! I thought it over and over and give you this victory. I agree with you and the others on this point. (Which you stated very well and eloquently. I am looking forward to crossing daggers again on another subject!
)
Marinerhodes
Active member
No matter how you slice it or dice it. If you ran from an obligation, commitment or other duty you are a coward, whether you stayed in the States or whether you fled the country you are a coward.
Here is a story I was told about 14 yeas ago. I was 17 and considering joining the Army:
My Father, Uncles and various extended family members served in WWII and all the subsequent wars. Only one, that I know of, ran. The family shunned him as did most of the community and he eventually killed himself for the shame of it.
Here is a story I was told about 14 yeas ago. I was 17 and considering joining the Army:
My Father, Uncles and various extended family members served in WWII and all the subsequent wars. Only one, that I know of, ran. The family shunned him as did most of the community and he eventually killed himself for the shame of it.
Dean
Active member
France has, and always has had the draft.major liability said:
Dean.
jedi078 said:
If I may, the policy of the Canadian Government is to send any objectors back to the US. They have their say in court, then the judge decides that the law that the person broke does not contravene any of the conditions for which Canada will refuse to return them, (usu. capital punishment) and they are turfed out after the appeals process ends. (It usually warms my heart to see it)
jedi078 said:
Your spelling is fine. This is the reason that Canada did accept the draft dodgers. They came as "immigrants" or "refugees" and had not yet broken American law. The law broken by draft dodgers was failure to report, and it was broken only after they had arrived here. There was no legal reason they could be sent back.
jedi078 said:
The US military was not able to replace the combined combat and retirement losses. At the time, there were also sizable US troop contingents in Korea, Japan, the Philippines and Germany.
Dean.
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Marinerhodes
Active member
tomtom22 said:
The motion has been seconded. May we get a vote?
Vote: AYE!!
Whispering Death
Active member
The independent party voices no opposition. Cute language + cowardice [is not]= intelligence.
Period.
Period.