Thoughts on the Russo-Ukranian War?

MontyB said:
Not sure that is accurate, it says they are circular exchange tanks and Germany doesn't use the L2A4 model.
My guess is that they are intended as replacements for countries with the A4 model while theirs are undergoing maintenance, as such Germany doesn't have to pay for anything.



I think a more appropriate question right now is whether NATO needs Turkiye, the are rattling the sabre at Greece (a fellow member), they throw tantrums at almost everything and I am not sure they contribute much at all.
I think both Finland and Sweden's bid to enter NATO should be shelved for a couple of months while the NATO constitution is rewritten to get rid of the 100% approval nonsense (maybe a simple super majority requirement) then put through in a slightly less BS environment.
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Now Scholz is saying that Germany will send the ridiculous number of 14 tanks to Ukraine , but not when .
Seeing is believing .
And why only 14 ?
If Germany has 100 operational tanks,why does it not send 100 tanks ?
If Germany has only 14 tanks ,this means it is disarmed .
If Germany has no operational tanks, the promise is empty ,as their arrival will depend on the time needed to make them operational again .
It is the same for the other European countries which have Leos (the non European countries can be discarded ).
After 11 months of war, now the countries with Leos promise to send operational Leos to Ukraine, but do not say when these Leos will arrive .Probably they do not know when these Leos will be ready .
It is the same for Britain with its Challengers .
Portugal has 37 Leos ( no one knows how many operational ) and promises to send an unknown number to Ukraine with an unknown date of arrival .
And yes : it will cost the German taxpayer billions as every Leo sent to Ukraine must be replaced . If there is no need to replace them ,why do they still have Leos ?
It is the same for the other countries .
 
Germany is looking at sending the A6 model which is in reserve as I understand it, I also would imagine that most countries are sending what they can afford to send and keeping what they need for their own use, others are sending older units with a view to replacing them with newer ones and yet other countries are just getting rid of equipment they no longer need.

This really isn't the issue you seem to be insinuating it is and makes perfect sense operationally..
 
MontyB said:
I guess at least the west is getting a lot of valuable information about its combat platforms although I am starting to feel very sorry for Ukrainian logistics units with all various calibres of ammunition being shipped.

On a positive note Estonia seems to have given everything but their troops to Ukraine.
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The Leo and the Abrams are using the same ammo, the problem will be the Challenger and all the different IFVs. The Bradleys have a 25mm chaingun while the CV90s have a 40mm maingun. The Ukrainians get the Stryker, but I don't know which variant. Then we have the issues with additional logistics for all the vehicles. I am not so concerned about the Ukrainians learning how to use the new stuff. They have shown an ability to use western made stuff before.
 
MontyB said:
Germany is looking at sending the A6 model which is in reserve as I understand it, I also would imagine that most countries are sending what they can afford to send and keeping what they need for their own use, others are sending older units with a view to replacing them with newer ones and yet other countries are just getting rid of equipment they no longer need.

This really isn't the issue you seem to be insinuating it is and makes perfect sense operationally..
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The 14 (haha ) tanks Germany will send his year costed a lot of money and must be replaced by 14 other tanks who will also cost a lot of money .
The fact that Germany can ,is willing to ,send only 14 tanks is striking as is the fact that they are send 1 year after the outbreak of the war .The game is going on since a year and now the West is saying that it will send gamechangers .Why were these 14 tanks not send last year ?
It will take months to make these 14 tanks ( and the others ) operational .
To send 14 non operational tanks that are in reserve means that this is all you can send and that the rest is worthless .
 
Another example of the hypocrisy of the EU
The import of Russian oil to the EU is forbidden
Crude oil : since December 2022 (the war started in February )
Refined petroleum products in February 2023 ( the war started in February 2022 )
But, there are ''limited '' exceptions . How much limited ?
The import of crude oil by pipelines to some EU member states is still allowed .
And, how to define ""Russian '' oil ?
Turkish crude oil imports from Russia were
in October 2021 576000 tons
in October 2022 1,429,000 tons
An increase of 853000 tons .
It is obvious that Turkey does not need this oil and is exporting it to countries who, officially, do not buy Russian oil .
It means also that Turkey is a de facto ally of Russia .
And, what did I read today : Finland ,neighbor of Russia, country that feels itself threatened by Russia and wants to join NATO, but can't ( better : couldn't ) do this because of the veto from Turkey ,is now selling weapons to Turkey (ally of Russia ) and can now join NATO .
But Finland will continue to whine about poor Ukraine unjustifiedly attacked by bad Russia .
The Fins are as hypocritical as the Germans, Italians, French, British, Americans ,etc
 
lljadw said:
Another example of the hypocrisy of the EU
The import of Russian oil to the EU is forbidden
Crude oil : since December 2022 (the war started in February )
Refined petroleum products in February 2023 ( the war started in February 2022 )
But, there are ''limited '' exceptions . How much limited ?
The import of crude oil by pipelines to some EU member states is still allowed .
And, how to define ""Russian '' oil ?
Turkish crude oil imports from Russia were
in October 2021 576000 tons
in October 2022 1,429,000 tons
An increase of 853000 tons .
It is obvious that Turkey does not need this oil and is exporting it to countries who, officially, do not buy Russian oil .
It means also that Turkey is a de facto ally of Russia .
And, what did I read today : Finland ,neighbor of Russia, country that feels itself threatened by Russia and wants to join NATO, but can't ( better : couldn't ) do this because of the veto from Turkey ,is now selling weapons to Turkey (ally of Russia ) and can now join NATO .
But Finland will continue to whine about poor Ukraine unjustifiedly attacked by bad Russia .
The Fins are as hypocritical as the Germans, Italians, French, British, Americans ,etc
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Finland lifted its arms embargo on Turkey, that's a part of the deal between Finland and Turkey. Finland like many other countries provide Ukraine with military equipment . Turkey is also selling military equipment to Ukraine, isn't that more hypocritical than what Finland does
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
Finland lifted its arms embargo on Turkey, that's a part of the deal between Finland and Turkey. Finland like many other countries provide Ukraine with military equipment . Turkey is also selling military equipment to Ukraine, isn't that more hypocritical than what Finland does
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The difference is that Turkey does not claim to be an ally of Ukraine .It does not care about Ukraine, Erdogan cares only about himself and Turkey .Finland,OTOH, claims urbi et orbi that it is an ally of Ukraine only ,but it helps also ,indirectly, Putin .
 
MontyB said:
I think they are the first African country to send aid to Ukraine.
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And who will pay for these tanks ?When will they arrive ?And in what condition ? How many tanks ?
It will take ,at least , 2 months before the 14 German Leos will arrive in Ukraine . Thus, it will take longer, much longer before tanks who are now somewhere in Morocco,will arrive in Ukraine .
And,why took it the Moroccan government a year to decide to help Ukraine ?
Belgium is now boasting that it will send 230 old,worn trucks to Ukraine ,financially a good decision as it costs Belgium a lot of money to stock and to maintain them,but it is very doubtful that this will help Ukraine .
 
About the tanks from Morocco,which Morocco bought 24 years ago from Belarus
Ukraine claims that Morocco will send them to Ukraine
Other media claim that they are already in Ukraine,after being modernized (is modernized the same as operational ? ) in Czechia .
Other media said that the whole thing was decided in April of 2022 ,implying that they were sent to Czechia or that they were already in Czechia ,which means that it took 10 months to modernize 20 tanks ! that are almost 40 years old .
Other media are saying that other tanks will follow .
All this without any proof , thus the conclusion is : seeing is believing .
The only thing we have are unconfirmed rumors .
And, there is also the question : why does Morocco send /has Morocco sent only 20 T 72 tanks as it has 134 of them ? And why is it needed to ''modernize '' them ?
And does Morocco also send the needed ammunition and spare parts ?
 
You do know that not everything going on in or regarding Ukraine is broadcast to the world?
Here is how I read it:
Morocco said here's some T-72s and Ukraine said "cheers"
America and apparently the Dutch then purchased the tanks from Morocco and sent or is sending them to the Czechs for upgrading and at some point they will end up in Ukraine.

This is pretty much all I need to know on the matter, what I am suggesting here is that you are fixating on some rather trivial issues that in the grand scheme of things don't matter.
 
lljadw said:
The difference is that Turkey does not claim to be an ally of Ukraine .It does not care about Ukraine, Erdogan cares only about himself and Turkey .Finland,OTOH, claims urbi et orbi that it is an ally of Ukraine only ,but it helps also ,indirectly, Putin .
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And how is Finland helping Russia?
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd far rather Sweden and Finland in NATO then Turkey. Turkey is doing a deal with Russia, Turkey has signed a controversial deal with Russia to arm its forces with Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said a deposit had already been paid. The deal is thought to be worth $2.5bn (£1.9bn). Turkey has the second-largest army in Nato. The alliance reacted sceptically to the decision, ''.

I wondered when Russia would begin fielding its T34 tanks in the war against Ukraine.Russia's ministry of defense has acquired thirty old T-34 tanks sparking speculation the Soviet medium tank that was introduced in 1940 could soon be reintroduced to the battlefields of Ukraine. Putin's military has been faced with the challenge of fielding tanks able to compete with the modern armour soon to be supplied to Ukraine such as the US Abrams and the British Challenger 2.

A Russian state broadcaster reported: "Until recently all of this unique equipment was used to arm the National Democratic Republic of Laos.

"All of these tanks were passed on to the Ministry of Defence of Russia as part of the science and technology cooperation."

The tanks were reportedly gifted to Laos in the 1980s by Vietnam.

The reporter continued: "At least half these tanks were made in 1944 - during WWII."
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
So, Leo2s, Abrams, Challengers, and IFVs/APCs to Ukraine. Will the French provide with their Leclerc MBTs?
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I think it would be in some respects a better option than the Challenger 2 as it takes the same round as the others. From a logistics option I think it is a better deal than the C2.

BritinBritain said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd far rather Sweden and Finland in NATO then Turkey. Turkey is doing a deal with Russia, Turkey has signed a controversial deal with Russia to arm its forces with Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said a deposit had already been paid. The deal is thought to be worth $2.5bn (£1.9bn). Turkey has the second-largest army in Nato. The alliance reacted sceptically to the decision, ''.

I wondered when Russia would begin fielding its T34 tanks in the war against Ukraine.Russia's ministry of defense has acquired thirty old T-34 tanks sparking speculation the Soviet medium tank that was introduced in 1940 could soon be reintroduced to the battlefields of Ukraine. Putin's military has been faced with the challenge of fielding tanks able to compete with the modern armour soon to be supplied to Ukraine such as the US Abrams and the British Challenger 2.

A Russian state broadcaster reported: "Until recently all of this unique equipment was used to arm the National Democratic Republic of Laos.

"All of these tanks were passed on to the Ministry of Defence of Russia as part of the science and technology cooperation."

The tanks were reportedly gifted to Laos in the 1980s by Vietnam.

The reporter continued: "At least half these tanks were made in 1944 - during WWII."
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While amusing I can't imagine the T34 back on the battlefield, but I do agree regarding Turkey, Erdogan is as dodgy as hell.

Incidentally the T-34s arrived in January 2019.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/russia-receives-30-vintage-t-3485-tanks-from-laos
 
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BritinBritain said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd far rather Sweden and Finland in NATO then Turkey. Turkey is doing a deal with Russia, Turkey has signed a controversial deal with Russia to arm its forces with Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said a deposit had already been paid. The deal is thought to be worth $2.5bn (£1.9bn). Turkey has the second-largest army in Nato. The alliance reacted sceptically to the decision, ''.

I wondered when Russia would begin fielding its T34 tanks in the war against Ukraine.Russia's ministry of defense has acquired thirty old T-34 tanks sparking speculation the Soviet medium tank that was introduced in 1940 could soon be reintroduced to the battlefields of Ukraine. Putin's military has been faced with the challenge of fielding tanks able to compete with the modern armour soon to be supplied to Ukraine such as the US Abrams and the British Challenger 2.

A Russian state broadcaster reported: "Until recently all of this unique equipment was used to arm the National Democratic Republic of Laos.

"All of these tanks were passed on to the Ministry of Defence of Russia as part of the science and technology cooperation."

The tanks were reportedly gifted to Laos in the 1980s by Vietnam.

The reporter continued: "At least half these tanks were made in 1944 - during WWII."
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I think Erdogan does this of domestic reasons. The election in may and the Turkish economy isn't on a election winning level, so he tries to divert his domestic issues to an international one. I also think this has quite little to do with Finland and Sweden. It has a lot to do with the US and getting the upgrade their F-16s and maybe be accepted into the F-35 program again.

I have another perception of this too. NATO is a defense alliance and it has little to do with terrorism. The UK never perceived the struggles with IRA as something that could motivate an article 5 response. Spain never viewed ETA as something for NATO to deal with. West Europe had problems with the left-wing terrorisms, the Brigade Rosso in Italy which kidnapped and killed Aldo Moro wasn't something for NATO, the West German government never viewed Rote Arme Fraction as something for NATO.

The military isn't the best tool to deal with terrorism, but it is the only tool countries can use if and when countries need to deal with terrorism abroad. Terrorism is a different version of organized criminal activity and the police are better to deal with it than the armed forces.

I also must criticize Sweden how we deal with terrorist organizations. Sweden was the first country after Turkey that recognized PKK as a terrorist organization. However, Sweden allows demonstrators to use it flags and other signs that support PKK, that shouldn't be allowed. If PKK is a terrorist organization, all the support (politically and economically) must be illegal and people expressing support for them would be prosecuted. Expressing support for the Kurdish people is not illegal.
 
MontyB said:
You do know that not everything going on in or regarding Ukraine is broadcast to the world?
Here is how I read it:
Morocco said here's some T-72s and Ukraine said "cheers"
America and apparently the Dutch then purchased the tanks from Morocco and sent or is sending them to the Czechs for upgrading and at some point they will end up in Ukraine.

This is pretty much all I need to know on the matter, what I am suggesting here is that you are fixating on some rather trivial issues that in the grand scheme of things don't matter.
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I don't think that questions about the number and date of operational tanks arriving in Ukraine are trivial issues .
The Belgian army has no longer any tanks,some are owned by private companies who ask too much money to sell them ,thus the Belgian government will buy tanks owned by other countries and ship them to Belgium to be repaired ,although these tanks never saw any fighting . No one knows how long this will take .
That at some point (2023,2024,or later )they will end up in Ukraine is not helping Ukraine which needs to know exactly when , not at some point .
You imagine the British reactions in WW2 ,if US told them that at some point,US food ,US weapons would arrive in Britain ?
 
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