I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Nobody wants to do it alone, I view the British offer a door opening for others to do the same.
Thoughts on the Russo-Ukranian War?
Nobody wants to do it alone, I view the British offer a door opening for others to do the same.
More ? Maybe ,but when ?
Labour MP Kevan Jones,member of the defense committee,said that the offer of 12 tanks was only a PR stunt of Defense .
Britain has 227 Challenger 2,of which 148 will be upgraded to a Challenge 3 standard,by Rheinmetal (German factory ) which will last at least til 2027 .
How many of the other 79 Challenger 2 are still operational ( they are more than 20 years old ) and how many is Britain needing ?
The fact that only 12 will be delivered indicates that a lot of the 79 are not available/not operational .It is unlikely that there will be significantly more tanks delivered .And if the majority of the Challenger 2 tanks need to be updated,why would the non updated Challenger2 tanks be useful in Ukraine ?
Source :Breaking Defense
There are also big problems with the Ajax vehicles .
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Exactly, in the grand scheme of things the delivery of 12 C2 tanks is meaningless but it opens the door for other countries to do the same and let's face it if every country with L2s sent 10% of its fleet it would make a difference.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
The benefits of giving Leo2s to Ukraine is the Americans and all the other countries in the West can provide with the ammunition. The British can also give them the Warrior or the Boxer IFVs.
The US made Abrams have a multi fuel gas turbine engine, but it can drive on diesel and gas (petrol). They can maybe give the Ukrainians their older M1A1s.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
It seems odd that the British went off on their own with armour.
Seems Ukraine is getting more than Challenger 2s
https://www.armyrecognition.com/def...f_30_as90_155mm_self-propelled_howitzers.html
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Chili had 124 L4 tanks. How many will/can they give to Ukraine ?
Rheinmetall (the producer of the L2 ) said that they could not repair/made operational even one German L2 in 2023 ,even if the government made its decision today .
We may assume that this also applies for L2 tanks owned by other countries .
Source :ARD (German TV ) of today .
Other sources :The Guardian and Switserlandtimes.ch
We may assume that this also applies for L2 tanks owned by other countries .
Source :ARD (German TV ) of today .
Other sources :The Guardian and Switserlandtimes.ch
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Yes unfortunately this is the "peace dividend" in action, the west has let's its defences run down to a dangerous level.
I expect we can thank Putin for putting us back on a war footing.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Here is another write up on Rheinmetall's maintenance capacity...
https://en.defence-ua.com/industrie...s_marder_infantry_fighting_vehicles-5445.html
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Canada has the Leo2s and can contribute with Leo2s if Berlin allows it.
One option for the countries with Leo2s is to just ignore the German objection and give Ukraine some of their Leo2 tanks.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-ukraine-canada-tanks-leopards/
One option for the countries with Leo2s is to just ignore the German objection and give Ukraine some of their Leo2 tanks.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-ukraine-canada-tanks-leopards/
That would cause big legal and maintenance problems .
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Legal yes, if they care. It wouldn't cause a major maintenance problem when the countries that have them are capable to maintain the tanks by themselves.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Ukraine could ask if South Korea has any K1A1/A2 to spare. It's a decent MBT comparable with the M1A1 Abrams. The K1A1/A2 can fire European made 120mm rounds.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
That is a hell of a long way to ship parts, pretty much right around the country they will be fighting.
Just out of interest the equipment of Ukrainian national guard is reviewed in the video...
| Gear Review | |
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I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
They can use the trans siberian railroad, haha. Maybe not. Poland buys their K2 Black Panther MBT and builds up the logistical chains to them and Poland isn't far from Ukraine. The South Korean defense systems are interesting and the K1A1/A2 K2 Black Panther seem to be decent MBTs. SK has a new IFV which is interesting. The US was looking at it as a potential replacement for their Bradleys
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
My understanding is that the Polish K2s will be produced in Poland so that would be a much shorter and largely secure supply line.
I added the video as it seemingly indicates that the Ukrainian national guard are starting to get decent equipment rather than front line hand me downs and that should count for something if the Russians and/or Belarus try again.
I have to admit that now Russia seems solely intent to target civilians I find myself leaning toward the west joining in physically especially if Belarus does enter.
PS enough kickbacks and bribes and they probably could ship them via the trans Siberian link.
I added the video as it seemingly indicates that the Ukrainian national guard are starting to get decent equipment rather than front line hand me downs and that should count for something if the Russians and/or Belarus try again.
I have to admit that now Russia seems solely intent to target civilians I find myself leaning toward the west joining in physically especially if Belarus does enter.
PS enough kickbacks and bribes and they probably could ship them via the trans Siberian link.
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I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Maybe the Ukrainians can buy (lease) the K2 if the Poles are manufacturing them. But it takes time for the Poles to get the production going. The first batch of K2s are probably already on its way to Poland. I read the Norwegian army is testing the K2 as well. Maybe Red can tell us more about it. Sweden has some CV90 in storage that can be useful for the Ukrainians.
The video was interesting and they have nice stuff for their soldiers. I must say, the Ukrainians have been effective with learning how to use western equipment. They are rather motivated to learn, I suppose
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I guess they have been slowly integrating into the western sphere since 2014.
Kind of ironic that the Russians drive nations away through threats and manipulation then blame everyone but themselves for the results.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
I have even heard scholars in the West accusing the US for the Russian attack on Ukraine.
The German reluctance to letting other countries with Leo2s to give some of them to Ukraine is quite annoying and it will have ramifications for the German defense industry.
I have an idea. The war is in somewhat of a stalemate during the winter. We could speculate where the next major offensive will occur.
I think the Ukrainians will attack against Melitopol from Zaporizhzhia area to cut off the Russian supply lines to Crimea. A minor offensive might occur north of Baknuth.
The German reluctance to letting other countries with Leo2s to give some of them to Ukraine is quite annoying and it will have ramifications for the German defense industry.
I have an idea. The war is in somewhat of a stalemate during the winter. We could speculate where the next major offensive will occur.
I think the Ukrainians will attack against Melitopol from Zaporizhzhia area to cut off the Russian supply lines to Crimea. A minor offensive might occur north of Baknuth.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The thing is the west did meddle in Ukraine but it is kind of irrelevant as it wasn't the west that crossed the borders.
No matter how Putin and his cronies want to spin it Ukraine has a right to choose its own path and it chose a western one, at no stage was Ukraine ever a threat to Russia militarily and had Russia not been a country that is a wholly unlikable, bully maybe Ukraine would have stayed in its sphere.
As for where this war is going, I don't know, my gut feeling is that they will push from Kherson, I believe the Melitopol axis is a bad option as it creates an extra front, by leaving Russia there and pushing from Kherson it puts all of the Russian forces along sea of Azov in a narrow salient as Ukrainian missiles can hit the Perekop isthmus from Kherson in the south and Melitopol from Zaporozhye in the east.
But there is another option and that is Russia going on the offensive probably in the north, trying another Kiev run, the question is whether Russia has the material capacity to do it or not.