The world only protests when Israel Strikes

[Partisan]

I'm sick of only half of the story being told by the media... I'm sick of hearing how the poor poor people of ______ need help, but when someone steps in, they are awful... I'm sick of how you never hear about the atrocities that happen towards Israel, but you hear about how Israel strikes back.... I could continue...

Please do. The country of Israel was born out of terrorism and has been afflicted by terrorism ever since. I would not deny the Jewish people their homeland, but it isn't theirs alone, it is a space that has been shared by other people for many thousands of years.

I hate the fact that Israel has suffered so many attacks, but it is a sovereign nation, and as such should set a standard rather than sinking to their opponents level, after all how do you want to be treated?

 

[SHERMAN]

I hate the fact that Israel has suffered so many attacks, but it is a sovereign nation, and as such should set a standard rather than sinking to their opponents level, after all how do you want to be treated?

I think the last page of this discussion made clear that Israel is far from sinking to the lever of SOME of its oppontents.

I could have a lot of fun with that chart, the people who made it would probably die if they saw that last page.

 

[AB_Shorts_Momma]

Please do. The country of Israel was born out of terrorism and has been afflicted by terrorism ever since. I would not deny the Jewish people their homeland, but it isn't theirs alone, it is a space that has been shared by other people for many thousands of years.

I hate the fact that Israel has suffered so many attacks, but it is a sovereign nation, and as such should set a standard rather than sinking to their opponents level, after all how do you want to be treated?

How is the fact that there are more Palestinian fatailities relevant to Israel being in the wrong? If you swim with sharks, prepare to get bit. In the same sense, if you go to war, prepare to get killed. A historian once told me that Israel's policy (in simplistic terms) was to strike 10-fold on anyone that struck them first. This policy was to discourage the violence that is so common in that area of the world. As an adult looking at the situation, it seems he was right.

I looked at the statistics page provided by senojekips <http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Index.asp> If you drill into it a little bit (examples below) almost all of them in the recent past were either participating in hostilities or did not to leave a war site (the two young men who were killed while sitting with friends during an incursion, at a spot near where Palestinians had recently fired at army tanks).


Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces in Gaza Strip
December 2008

Ahmad 'Afif Ahmad Abu al-Ma'azah
18 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 23.12.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities.​

Muhammad Akram Yusef M'aruf
20 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 23.12.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities.

Ra'id Walid Jum'ah a-Radi'a
19 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 23.12.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities.

'Ali 'Alian 'Ali Hejazi
25 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 20.12.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire, from a helicopter. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: He was killed while he and other armed men were firing mortar shells at Israel.

Salah 'Abd al-Hadi 'Abd al-Qader Abu 'Okal
40 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 17.12.2008 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire. Killed when participating in hostilities. Additional information: He was killed while he and other armed men were firing mortar shells at Israel.

'Omar Musa 'Odeh Abu Hamad
15 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 02.12.2008 in Rafah, by gunfire, from a helicopter. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: He was killed when sitting with friends during an incursion. Apparently, ten minutes earlier, armed Palestinians had fired, from the area of his house, mortar shells at army tanks.

Ramzi Ibrahim Mansur al-Deheini​

19 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 02.12.2008 in Rafah, by gunfire, from a helicopter. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: He was killed when sitting with friends during an incursion. Apparently, ten minutes earlier, armed Palestinians had fired, from the area of his house, mortar shells at army tanks.


Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians in the West Bank

2008​

Rashad 'Ali Ahmad Khater
20 year-old resident of 'Ein Siniya, Ramallah and al-Bira district, killed on 09.05.2008 next to 'Ein Siniya, Ramallah and al-Bira district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed when with friends hunting birds in the wadi between the villages 'Ein Yabrud, Dura al-Qra, and 'Ein Sinia.​

Muhammad Saleh Saber Shreitah​

18 year-old resident of al-Mazra'a al-Qibliya, Ramallah and al-Bira district, killed on 03.03.2008 next to Talmon, Ramallah and al-Bira district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed while throwing stones at a buys in a demonstration of youths.

Muhammad Fathi Yunes Sabarneh
21 year-old resident of Beit Ummar, Hebron district, killed on 24.01.2008 in Kfar Ezyon, Bethlehem district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed by gunfire of teachers in a yeshiva after he entered the yeshiva area with another armed person and stabbed the instructors.​

Mahmoud Khalil 'Abd al-Fatah Sabarneh
20 year-old resident of Beit Ummar, Hebron district, killed on 24.01.2008 in Kfar Ezyon, Bethlehem district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed by gunfire of teachers in a yeshiva after he entered the yeshiva area with another armed person and stabbed the instructors.​

 

[sky2979]

To both Sky and AB Shorts Momma, I suggest you base your assumptions on the facts rather than your desires.

The Israeli occupiers have killed far more Palestinians than the reverse.
Below is a copy of some figures released by an Israeli organisation trying to get some justice for Palestinians. Not even all Israelis are as blind as yourselves to the facts.

I would suggest that these figures are very moderate, as I'm sure the Israeli government would be fudging the figures to minimise their culpability.

Hummm. intresting,..I dont recall facts being desires..History has never been' taught as being fiction,....

 

[senojekips]

How is the fact that there are more Palestinian fatailities relevant to Israel being in the wrong?

Where is this said? Please follow the debate back prior to your comment. My figures are not relevant to many things, but they are in line with the previous debate showing Israels overreaction and lassez faire attitude to civilian deaths.

If you swim with sharks, prepare to get bit.

Does this apply when the sharks are placed into the bathtub in your own home whilst you are living peacefully in that bathtub? Truisms sound great, their only failing being that they are not necessarily always true.

In the same sense, if you go to war, prepare to get killed. A historian once told me that Israel's policy (in simplistic terms) was to strike 10-fold on anyone that struck them first. This policy was to discourage the violence that is so common in that area of the world. As an adult looking at the situation, it seems he was right.

Yes, I can remember the Nazi's used that excuse too. It didn't really hold water very well at the Nuremberg trials.

I looked at the statistics page provided by senojekips <http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Index.asp> If you drill into it a little bit (examples below) almost all of them in the recent past were either participating in hostilities or did not to leave a war site

and how might one leave the war site when the israelis have had the border secured for over 6 months and are also refusing to allow movement by sea?

(the two young men who were killed while sitting with friends during an incursion, at a spot near where Palestinians had recently fired at army tanks).

With an overall population density of 10,665 persons per sq mi, it would be surprising not to find someone near any spot in the whole of Gaza If this was near a built up area the local population density could be at least twice that, probably more when people are fleeing to the city to get humanitarian aid and escape the oncoming invasion. I seriously doubt that this would also stand scrutiny at any war crimes trial. You can't just shoot people who happen to be in the general area. You may remember the fracas in Iraq recently when Blackwater indiscriminately killed unarmed civilians in a market square when they came under fire?

I also notice that in your detailed examination of 11 individual cases you very conveniently neglect to notice that, of the remaining 4781 Palestinians killed by Israeli Security forces an estimated 70% were unarmed civilians, this figure is based on estimates claimed by CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America).
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1603

 

[SHERMAN]

Does this apply when the sharks are placed into the bathtub in your own home whilst you are living peacefully in that bathtub? Truisms sound great, their only failing being that they are not necessarily always true.

Living peacefully is a *bit* of an overstatment.

Yes, I can remember the Nazi's used that excuse too. It didn't really hold water very well at the Nuremberg trials

I dont recall Gernany suffering from 60 years of Jewish terror before the holocaust(or after, come to think of it). Also your continued comparisons are redicules. Comparing harsh fighting, and even occupation, to orgenized genocide dose not hold water.

and how might one leave the war site when the israelis have had the border secured for over 6 months and are also refusing to allow movement by sea?

IDF gives warnings before engaging targets. These inclide pamlets dropped by aircraft, audio warnings via large speakers, and in some cases even phone calls to houses about to be engaged. Civilians in Gaza can move out of the area for the time of the fighting and into the city centers, which were relativly quiet. Its not a perfect system but I really dont see any other options when fighting people who wear plain clothes.

With an overall population density of 10,665 persons per sq mi, it would be surprising not to find someone near any spot in the whole of Gaza If this was near a built up area the local population density could be at least twice that, probably more when people are fleeing to the city to get humanitarian aid and escape the oncoming invasion. I seriously doubt that this would also stand scrutiny at any war crimes trial. You can't just shoot people who happen to be in the general area. You may remember the fracas in Iraq recently when Blackwater indiscriminately killed unarmed civilians in a market square when they came under fire?

Spike, palestinians go out to the streets out of curiosity, ive seen fottage of it. Im not saying this excuses misidentifcations, but if lived in a war zone i would stay out of sight when the shooting starts.

I also notice that in your detailed examination of 11 individual cases you very conveniently neglect to notice that, of the remaining 4781 Palestinians killed by Israeli Security forces an estimated 70% were unarmed civilians, this figure is based on estimates claimed by CAMERA

That counters both Betzelem and UN statistics, as posted by you and AB in the previous pages. Im sure a good enough look will turn up statistics saying that its only 50%, and yet i choose to stick to the UN and Betzelem, both of which I regard accurate.
By the way did you read that whole page? Its actually claiming that palestinian combatent deaths were added to civilian deaths...I should have used that page, not you...You read right through that source and used it as refrence to claims which are disputed by the source...

Here is some of it:

By cross-checking with other sources, CAMERA has identified a number of Hamas fighters and members of other Palestinian terrorist groups who were either misclassified by PCHR as civilians, not identified as combatants, or omitted entirely from their tabulations. This raises serious questions about the accuracy of PCHRs casualty statistics.

Among Child Fatalities, an Unusual Proportion are Males Aged 15 to 17
PCHR records 281 child fatalities to January 21. But it gives specific age and gender information for only 253. Of these 253, 57 (23 percent) are 15 -17 year old males. Considering that this age group accounts for less than 8 percent of the under-18 population, 15-17 year old males are overrepresented as fatalities. Since Palestinian terror groups are known to have used teenagers from this age category to carry out suicide bombings, it is not unreasonable to suspect that a number of these teenage fatalities resulted from them having participated in combat.

Even after excluding those identified by PCHR as combatants, there is still a disproportionate number of fatalities among this age group in relation to their representation in the population. Given reports that Hamas fighters shed their uniforms and were indistinguishable from civilians, and given footage from the conflict showing people actively engaged in shooting from within crowds of civilians, it is right to question how it is possible for PCHR to distinguish combatants from those of the same age range who accompany them in battle.

 

[senojekips]

Living peacefully is a *bit* of an overstatment.

Yes Sherman, I am aware of what you are talking about particularly your own family experiences. However compared with the murder and bloodshed today (from both sides) It was certainly a time of great peace

I dont recall Gernany suffering from 60 years of Jewish terror before the holocaust(or after, come to think of it). Also your continued comparisons are redicules. Comparing harsh fighting, and even occupation, to orgenized genocide dose not hold water.

I am not using this as an example to justify Nazi actions, but merely to show that proclaiming a target kill ratio is not acceptable in the eyes of the civilised world. This was used in cases of what the Nazis called terrorism and we call resistance fighters.

IDF gives warnings before engaging targets. These inclide pamlets dropped by aircraft, audio warnings via large speakers, and in some cases even phone calls to houses about to be engaged. Civilians in Gaza can move out of the area for the time of the fighting and into the city centers, which were relativly quiet. Its not a perfect system but I really dont see any other options when fighting people who wear plain clothes.

What you say is probably correct, but you are missing the fact the most of the world judged that you had no right to be waging the war anyway, because Israel bought the rocket attacks upon themselves by not honouring their end of the ceasefire. Now whether you agree or not, you may as well know that outside of israel and the USA that is a widely held opinion.

Spike, palestinians go out to the streets out of curiosity, ive seen fottage of it. Im not saying this excuses misidentifcations, but if lived in a war zone i would stay out of sight when the shooting starts.

I believe you totally, however in similar circumstances such as i mentiioned in Iraq that does not give troops the right to kill those persons. I am aware of what it is like to be fighting a geurrilla force as this was the case in Vietnam, never the less, it does not absolve the troops from their responsibilities in any way when it comes to war crimes.

That counters both Betzelem and UN statistics, as posted by you and AB in the previous pages. Im sure a good enough look will turn up statistics saying that its only 50%, and yet i choose to stick to the UN and Betzelem, both of which I regard accurate.
By the way did you read that whole page? Its actually claiming that palestinian combatent deaths were added to civilian deaths...I should have used that page, not you...You read right through that source and used it as refrence to claims which are disputed by the source...

I did read it and found that it was full of claims and counterclaims, further over complicated by the break down into various age groups and the arguments for and against them being combatants. However the overall figure finally agreed upon by CAMERA was approximately 70% civilian casualties. I may have it wrong, as the whole report is a complete mish mash of figures that in my opinion they have attempted to "break down" into too many subgroups. As Far as i can see if you are a civilian and you are dead, it doesn't really matter what your age group is.

An Analysis of the Fatalities by Age and Gender Suggests Combatants May Have Been Misidentified as Civilians
The most recent weekly update records 1285 Palestinian fatalities through Jan. 21. It defines 895 of these fatalities as civilians (70 percent) and an additional 167 "civil police officers" (13 percent) it also regards as non-combatants.

 

[SHERMAN]

target kill ratio is not acceptable in the eyes of the civilised world

Against civilians, it isent. against military ovcourse it is. Israel dose not say, internally or externally, "we will kill 10 palestinians for each israeli". We do say that the price for every attack on us will be harsher than the attack, this is a principal of deterence.

Now whether you agree or not, you may as well know that outside of israel and the USA that is a widely held opinion.

I think the question is not weather Israel had a right to attack militants. the question was if the reaction is proportional. I dont believe in proportional responses.

I am aware of what it is like to be fighting a geurrilla force as this was the case in Vietnam, never the less, it does not absolve the troops from their responsibilities in any way when it comes to war crimes.

I agree completely.

However the overall figure finally agreed upon by CAMERA was approximately 70% civilian casualties. I may have it wrong, as the whole report is a complete mish mash of figures that in my opinion they have attempted to "break down" into too many subgroups. As Far as i can see if you are a civilian and you are dead, it doesn't really matter what your age group is.

You have it wrong. Read the report carefully. It is basically challenging reports made by another source (PCHR). The point made is that 70%(as claimed by PCHR) is probably a higher figure than the real one. The age group ovcourse dosent matter, but it shows somthing intresting: If only 25% of the population is males over 15 years old, and yet they are more than 74% of casualties. Also most of these "civilians" were killed in groups of men(not women or children). CAMERA says this raises a doubt that combatent casualties were listed as civilian ones, as males of fighting age killed in all male groups and in far larger noumbers indicate they might have taken part in the fighting. These are not my claims, Im just telling you what your own source says.

 

[senojekips]

Against civilians, it isent. against military ovcourse it is. Israel dose not say, internally or externally, "we will kill 10 palestinians for each israeli". We do say that the price for every attack on us will be harsher than the attack, this is a principal of deterence.

My answer was given to AB Shorts,etc because of her statement that this was the claim of Israel's forces. Prior to which, I had neither heard of it, nor commented on it. To be honest I consider that it is not really relevant to the debate, as I wholeheartedly agree that it is not a proclaimed aim of Israel either against combatants or civilians.

I think the question is not weather Israel had a right to attack militants. the question was if the reaction is proportional. I dont believe in proportional responses.

Well al I can say is this is the difference in our thinking and of course our explanations as to what happened. You think what was done was justifiable the rest of the world seems to be largely of a different opinion. This in no way excused the use of disproportionate killing of women and children or civilians in general. The degree of proportion of an action and reaction is of great importance in criminal cases. If you break the speed limit by 5-8km/hr, you are fined $187 here in my state, the degree of punishment rises sharply as the speed increases because the degree of criminality increases.

You have it wrong. Read the report carefully. It is basically challenging reports made by another source (PCHR). The point made is that 70%(as claimed by PCHR) is probably a higher figure than the real one. The age group ovcourse dosent matter, but it shows somthing intresting: If only 25% of the population is males over 15 years old, and yet they are more than 74% of casualties. Also most of these "civilians" were killed in groups of men(not women or children). CAMERA says this raises a doubt that combatent casualties were listed as civilian ones, as males of fighting age killed in all male groups and in far larger noumbers indicate they might have taken part in the fighting. These are not my claims, Im just telling you what your own source says.

I could be trite about this and say that in that case i believe the PCHR figures, but I will not, and will admit that I stuffed up in this case. However if I want, I am sure that I would find that my case is still valid in that there is still deemed to be a disproportionate number of civilians deaths as against combatants.

 

[SHERMAN]

I could be trite about this and say that in that case i believe the PCHR figures, but I will not, and will admit that I stuffed up in this case. However if I want, I am sure that I would find that my case is still valid in that there is still deemed to be a disproportionate number of civilians deaths as against combatants.

You could always find statistics.

 

[senojekips]

You could always find statistics.

As much as we disparage "statistics" everything we do is still based on them.

 

[SHERMAN]

As much as we disparage "statistics" everything we do is still based on them

Yes. My point was that with so much research being done, you could get statistics for every possible claim. The problem is analyzing them in a way that makes ameaningful conclusion.

Either way I agree with you that 1.4 civilian deaths per 1 one combatent is too high. Israel should always try to minimize the civilian casualtiesas much as possible.

 

[Del Boy]

Not even worth dignifying with a reply. You wouldn't understand anyway.

I have said what I have said and I understand only too well.

 

[wolfen]

Yes. My point was that with so much research being done, you could get statistics for every possible claim. The problem is analyzing them in a way that makes ameaningful conclusion.

Either way I agree with you that 1.4 civilian deaths per 1 one combatent is too high. Israel should always try to minimize the civilian casualtiesas much as possible.

But what do you do if its the civilian population picking up arms against you?
I might be wrong, but I'll shoot anything or anyone pointing a weapon at me

 

[SHERMAN]

What you doing bringing this one out of its grave?

But what do you do if its the civilian population picking up arms against you?
I might be wrong, but I'll shoot anything or anyone pointing a weapon at me

A person with a weapn pointing at you is not a civilian he is a combatent.

 

[wolfen]

What you doing bringing this one out of its grave?



A person with a weapn pointing at you is not a civilian he is a combatent.

Well................I read a reply in my gmail inbox, so I replied
and a civilian witha gun pointed at me gets called something different than combatant.

 

[Partisan]

Well................I read a reply in my gmail inbox, so I replied
and a civilian witha gun pointed at me gets called something different than combatant.

That civilian is called a target, unless the ROE say otherwise!!

 

[wolfen]

I'm was never in the habbit of letting them live long enough to give them a name.
But then nobody ever explained the ROE to me anyway

 

[SHERMAN]

if someone is aiming a gun at you he is partaking in the combat, so he is a combatent. Counter Insurgency and counter-terrorisem ops are not the same as what we were all trained at, which is conventional fighting. You have to adjust. Everyone is a possible combatent. Every civilian from 10 years old to 70 years old is a possible threat. You need to have the balls to take a few seconds to asses this civilian. Is he hostile? Dose he have a capacity to hurt you? If all three are positive, he is a combatent and a legitimate target. If only the first is true than he is not a combatent. People are bound to be hostile when they fel you are attacking their country. In israel we call it "Haflala"-"Incrimination".
Once someone is "incriminated" he becomes a legitimate target to engage with what ever force is needed.

 

[senojekips]

Semantics, it's all semantics.

We can trade words all day, and hide behind your own personal interpretations as to whether these persons are terrorists, civilians, combatants, resistance fighters or whatever.

What you or I call them has absolutely nothing to do with it. What must be considered here is what the war crimes commission will call them, should you end up in trouble over any incident involving them.

The best judgement is your own. Just ask yourself the question, "Will what I am doing be seen as improper by those who might judge me".