The rising of an Empire and the future invasion of Europe!

[GuyontheRight]

A Second Tours? What make Europe so important?

 

[Chocobo_Blitzer]

With the growing popularity of Muqtada Al'sadr and such, it's easy to buy into this post.... a nuclear deadlock? That's interesting..... we wouldn't want to provoke them, and they wouldn't want to provoke us, PLUS: they want to abolish the west and replace it with Islam. Right? But they would also have to be careful the ways they attacked, as you mentioned they are tech. inferior to the west. Launching large scale attacks would seem near impossible with the current air and artillery power today. True you show that 200 million stat, but really, human flesh can only push so far. But of course, can't ignore the intergrated militia cells in europe. Though I think they would be hard pressed to equip themselves well.... if much.

also, I'd believe this more if it mentioned the red star asians becoming involved, not necessarily on their side, nor ours. Much like the axis in WWII, merely allies for neutrality and to serve eachothers gains.

Very neat read, but it doesn't seem tragicly realistic. Though I do believe Islamic extremist are a threat. But covering a scale to put the WWII russian front to shame? I can't buy it, really....

 

[gladius]

A Second Tours? What make Europe so important?

I'd like say it were that easy. However, this isn't going to be a one battle show and then it's over, that won't be the case here. You can compare this to Germany's invasion of Russia, even though the Germans smashed or captured multiple Russian armies, the Russians they still kept coming. This will be similar to that.

The reason that makes Europe so important is the fact the Islamics don't really get along with non-muslims, but they see as their two biggest enemies are Jews and Christians. The West being symbolic of Christianity. Their hatred towards us goes all the way back to the crusades, which they still hold against us, go figure. Besides you have to get it out of your mind that they think like us, their system of logic is completely different than ours, this is one of the things the West doesn't grasp when sometimes trying to figure them out.

Like I said one of their prophecies is that the Mahdi will destroy Rome. Whether this is literal Rome, or symbolic of the West I'm not sure. I believe it is literal, I think they tend to see Vatican City ( which is located in Rome ) as the seat of all Christendom. The destruction of this would be to them a symbolic act of great significance. Either way, the first step in destroying the West is through Europe.

The second reason for invading Europe, I'm quite sure see it as place of fertile lands and immense riches, ripe for plunder. This is proven by the fact that so many Muslims are immigrating there. They probably also see most europeans made soft and weak by all that luxury. Not mention with Islams population explotion, who knows, it may be the need for farm land that will be one the excuses they use to invade, the desert isn't exactly the best land for farming.

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Launching large scale attacks would seem near impossible with the current air and artillery power today. True you show that 200 million stat, but really, human flesh can only push so far.

Human flesh can only push so far, true. But isn't this what the Russians did in order to stop and beat the Germans.

Like I said before, whoever decides to lauch an invasion won't be stupid about it, or they will get crushed. If they are smart, they will do it on their terms, takings maximum advatage of their strenghts.

With a 20 to 1 or more advantadge you will be able to out attrition anybody.

But of course, can't ignore the intergrated militia cells in europe. Though I think they would be hard pressed to equip themselves well.... if much.

True. I'm hoping they won't be able to equip themselves. However you shouldn't underestimate thier ability to do so.

also, I'd believe this more if it mentioned the red star asians becoming involved, not necessarily on their side, nor ours. Much like the axis in WWII, merely allies for neutrality and to serve eachothers gains.

I agree with this. In fact I see them having close ties with either Russia or China, in order to pull this off, although I didn't right it down. One reason is for purchasing of weapons, which those countries would be glad to sell.

Very neat read, but it doesn't seem tragicly realistic. Though I do believe Islamic extremist are a threat. But covering a scale to put the WWII russian front to shame? I can't buy it, really....

It seems unraelistic from a single country perspective. However, from the perspective of an Empire with 1.5 billion people it makes much more sense.

But in order to even have a slim chance of succeeding in todays terms, you will have to put the WWII Russian front to shame.

How many divisions did the Russian have to take Germany? Around 100 to 150 maybe more in a 7 million man army, if I'm not mistaken. Well in todays terms in order for you to be able to take Europe with 150 divisions simply won't do. You might as well throw those men away, you have no chance of success. You will need a minimun 500 divisions, to have a so-so chance, 800 to 1000 to make sure. That's why I'm saying this will dwarf the Russian Front, in order for sucess the effort will have to be gigantic in a scale never seen before.

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Mod Edit: Do not make back to back posts.

 

[Keist IV]

As for Judeo-Christian prophecy, it talks about a terrible world leader who will arise out of the area of the former empire of Alexander the Great. Read it in Daniel Chapter 8.

If you noticed that most of the countries that today occupy the area of Alexander's former empire are now Muslims countries.

Coincidence?!?

This may be but I thought that this terrible world leader will be of a blonde hair and blue eyes nationality. I do not remember exactly where I heard or read this but I was under that understanding. If this is the case, I do not know if too many Muslims with blonde hair and blue eyes.

 

[Troop Rupert]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This thread is pretty disturbing! I've done a couple of tours in the middle east, now, and to my mind, the'enemy' have not been Islamic terrorists, but terrorists who happen to be Islamic. Do you get the subtle difference?

Clearly, there is a lot of talk from various Imams, and other religious types, trying to get support for what is essentially a terrorist campaign with political ends, and using the Jihad card is bound to get a bit more support from the locals than the political card, but I do not believe for one second that this is all part of a fundamental Islamic plot - this smacks of 1930's Nazi propoganda about the Jewish plot to take over the World.

Hope I've not caused offence, chaps, and sorry if you feel that I'm being niaive - just my opinion.

 

[GuyontheRight]

gadius,
I disagree with why this would take place In Europe. The secularization of Europe proves that It is no longer a "Christian Enemy", and now with Israel being home to many Jews, It no longer symbolizes Judaism. No, I believe Europe, If the prophesy has any truth, would be the goal because It symbolizes progressiveness to the point of sinfulness. Think about It, Humanism and Materialism both emerged from Europe, both of which are opposite to the beliefs of Islam.

Remember, the early Muslims has respect for both Christians and Jews, the hate we see In many of them today is just a phenomenon In their geopolitical situation.

 

[gladius]

This may be but I thought that this terrible world leader will be of a blonde hair and blue eyes nationality. I do not remember exactly where I heard or read this but I was under that understanding. If this is the case, I do not know if too many Muslims with blonde hair and blue eyes.

I've studied several different prophecies Christian, Muslim and others. There is no metion of any blond blue eyes leader. The Bible has no mention anywhere of what he will look like, eluding to blonde and blue eyes. So I don't where you heard this stuff.

gadius,
I disagree with why this would take place In Europe. The secularization of Europe proves that It is no longer a "Christian Enemy", and now with Israel being home to many Jews, It no longer symbolizes Judaism. No, I believe Europe, If the prophesy has any truth, would be the goal because It symbolizes progressiveness to the point of sinfulness. Think about It, Humanism and Materialism both emerged from Europe, both of which are opposite to the beliefs of Islam.

Remember, the early Muslims has respect for both Christians and Jews, the hate we see In many of them today is just a phenomenon In their geopolitical situation.

Yes that how we see things, but thats not how they see things. So it really doesn't matter what our concepts of Christinity and the West are. To them the West and Christianity as a whole are pretty much one and the same, basicly it a threat fundamentalist Islam.

The same principal goes for Israel, regardless of how todays Israelis see themselves, to the Muslims they are just still Jews. Like I said before our logic and their logic is not the same.

This is a quote I think from one of the Hadiths a compilation of the prophet Mohamed's sayings

"The last hour won't come before the Muslims would fight the Jews and the Muslims will kill them so Jews would hide behind rocks and trees. Then the rocks and trees would call: oh, Muslim, oh, servant of God! There is a Jew, behind me, come and kill him."

So much for their respect of Jews.

Clearly, there is a lot of talk from various Imams, and other religious types, trying to get support for what is essentially a terrorist campaign with political ends, and using the Jihad card is bound to get a bit more support from the locals than the political card, but I do not believe for one second that this is all part of a fundamental Islamic plot - this smacks of 1930's Nazi propoganda about the Jewish plot to take over the World.

Sorry I didn't mean for it to be disturbing, but the posibilty of world war is diturbing. I mean I don't think it's going to go away just because we think positive thoughts.

As far as the Nazi's go, you gotta think how many Germans were actually Nazi's, very few percentange wise, the rest of the normal folk jsut got swept up in the tide.

And as far as propaganda goes, they have one that rivals the output of Goebbels himself, you might have heard of it's called Al Jezeera. Every day their media fuels hatred against the Israel and the West. It's sure not helping to make things any better.

I'm not saying this stuff because I wan't to happen, on the contrary I don't. But I'm afraid the writting is on the wall. If we ignore this like France ignored Germany in the 30's then for sure there will be nothing we can do to stop it once it catches steam.

I actually believe most Muslims are decent people. However when the ball gets rolling, just like those Germans who where swept up by the Nazi tide, so will they get swept up.

 

[Chocobo_Blitzer]

Would turkey and saidi arabia be enemies or allies?

 

[godofthunder9010]

If someone can motivate a united Muslim Empire, I have no doubt they'd be very dangerous. Before they could be fully effective, they'd have to drag the Muslim nations of the world into the 21st century economically and technologically. That part would require a lot of work.

 

[gladius]

Would turkey and saidi arabia be enemies or allies?

I'm making an educated guess here, anything can happen, but this is my best guess. Saudi Arabia will have to side with the Mahdi. If the Saudi Royal family opposes him they will be overthrown in a popular uprising. The irony is it through their own making.
Long time ago they made a deal with the radical Islamist to leave them alone and not target them. In exchange for some support to spread radical Islam one of which was to set up shcools called Madrassas. These shcools teach no skills, except for radical Islam and all that goes with it. There are thousands and thousands of these schools a in that region. You could almost compare it to something like the Hitler youth.

As for Turkey its a toss-up. The population is Muslim, however the top echelons of the military are staunch secularist called Kemalist, I believe they are pro-western. You cannot do anything major in Turkey without thier approval. I actually think this is good, without them you probably would have another Iran instead of a country that's freindly to the West, and tries to be progresive.

So it's a toss-up but if they do decide to oppose the Mahdi, theres just tooo many Muslims in their country, not to mention the lower ranks of the military for them to win.

If someone can motivate a united Muslim Empire, I have no doubt they'd be very dangerous. Before they could be fully effective, they'd have to drag the Muslim nations of the world into the 21st century economically and technologically. That part would require a lot of work.

You made a good point. I think whoever's in change if he's smart will try to force some sort of technological and economical reforms. However, I don't think they will ever be able to match the West on the same level. The technology they may simple buy from Russia or China. France and Germany will probably sell a good deal of tech too, which will later be turned against their original sellers. ( Like selling a gun to someone and him using that gun later in order to stick you up ) The irony of this wouldn't surprise me.

I don't think they will be using obsolete weapons systems, they will try as much as possible to go up to standard. They may come close to this, but I don't believe they will ever match it. However what they don't match they will be able to more than make up for ----with manpower. like I already pointed out similar to the way the Russians used this advantange againsthe Germans

 

[Chocobo_Blitzer]

Next step would be to annalize how much the muslim world depends on the western cultures. I would think their economy would come to a tragic hault pretty darn fast. This empire would have to join hands, rise up against all things western influenced, and make a decisive victory against the west all in a pretty short amount of time. By the time they unite, become majority Islamic facist against the west, arm themselves with nuclear weapons and somewhat technology equivalent weaponry for these supposed 200 million men. I'd think someone would step in.

Oh wait, someone has.

They go by the names of "Operation Enduring Freedom" and "Operation Iraqi Freedom". I think sept 11 awoke the western world, namely the US (duh) about Islamic fascism and their weapon of terrorism. The taliban are pretty much gone, removed the baathist regime from power in Iraq, and are currently fighting a variety of muslim extremist. Mainly sunni and shi'ite. But I digress... the point is, in a sense, this war has aleady begun. I think what the US and allied forces are doing right now are preventing this "riseing empire" theory.

However, I will admit this has the possibility of occuring if:

1- The US and Iraqi government fail to take control of the situation, and future conflicts end in long stalemates like the situation in Najaf.

2- The ignorant anti-war masses continue their ideals and coverting, turning the majority of public opinion.

3- The Iranian nuclear development goes unchecked by the UN.

4- Europe continues their ambivalence towards military actions in the middle-east.

5- As a direct consequence of #2 and #4, the US and allies cease major military presence from the middle-east.

All of this looks very plausible, but will it happen? I like to think no. I like to think the US can recognize how dire the situation is in the middle-east, and will stick to it- same goes with her most trusted allies.

I would like to think the majority of muslims are understanding and wouldn't so easily convert to "Islamic extremism" But then, why is it we're tip-toeing around Najaf and Fallujha? So we won't hurt their feelings? I think not.

 

[gladius]

I actually think that by invading Iraq we may have bought ourselves 5 maybe 10 years of peace. So I think it was a good thing.

Yes I think Sept 11 woke us up, but it seems were slowly falling back to sleep again.

I think you made some good and very pluasible points, which possibly may lead to all of this.
However for all our Western reasonings there is still one factor we don't get or seem to understand, I'll get to that later.

I would like to think the majority of muslims are understanding and wouldn't so easily convert to "Islamic extremism"

You're absolutely right! THEY WON'T.

Not right now at least... no chance! A lot of them are sympathetic to those extremist but still very few will ever actually act. ( Does this answer coming from me surprise you? )

Like I said there is one factor in this whole equation we Westerners really don't know or don't seem to get. I've been trying to explain this all along.

That factor is the Mahdi factor.

Every since childhood every Muslim is taught about the coming of the Mahdi. That he will be the the will of Allah himself and everything he does and says is basicly equivalent to the will of Allah himself. To put simply he has status of being a god. All their lives they not only hear this but anticipate with eagerness.

I don't know what we have here in Western society that compares to to this that I can make an analogy out of. The closest thing I can think of is that alot of people would be willing to sacrifice their lives for their country, alot of these people are the average joe, probably very few of them are really radical, but still they are willing to do it. Picture fighting for the your country, except this time your country is personified in one man. This is the closest i can come up with to try to explain this although, its not even close, it is so much more.

Now picture yourself as a Muslim, the Mahdi has showed up, here is the pesonification of your highest and greastest ideals, the one you've heard of all your life, would you be able to turn him down. We really don't have a clue what this means so we can sit here and say, "yeah I can turn him down." But realisticaly, out of a 1000 Muslims how many would say no?

For all the Bin Ladens and Al Sadrs that show up it will never cause a massive movement to arms by the Muslim world. These peoples actions are not the divine will of Allah personified, the Muslim know that. The Mahdi however is a different story. Our invasion of Iraq has not stopped the Mahdi legend.

The scariest thing about this is that it will only take one person---one man---to step up at the right moment and alter the course of history. There is a whole culture already set up numbering 1.5 billion waiting for him to do just that.

 

[Big_Z]

If every islamic country in the world united they would be a flea compared to the west. They cant even defeat Israel, their worst enemy. Country and training will defeat religion every time.

 

[SAINT]

8) I think the Muslim world is too divided to unite against Europe... but what is most dangerous about them are their terrorist groups.

got to be alert at all times... GOT TO HUNT THEM ALL DOWN!

 

[gladius]

Yes they are divided, totaly true, I don't dispute this.

The thing is they believe as part of their prophecies that a great leader will someday appear to unite them all and conquer the world.

They cant even defeat Israel, their worst enemy. Country and training will defeat religion every time.

Their defeats were partialy because they were using old Russian tactics against Western military doctrine designed to defeat that. That and who knows, maybe Allah isn't really on their side.

You have to remeber the Muslim Caliphate ( Ottoman Empire ) was historicaly the most powerful empire at that time, even though Europe was technologicaly superior. If this empire were to be revived I wouldn't take them lightly.

 

[godofthunder9010]

I prefer to keep my biblical interpretations open on this one. You could just as easily have such an army come out of Asia. If all you're looking for is a Muslim Empire to arise, you just might miss what was REALLY being talked about.

 

[gladius]

I'm not solely basing this on Biblical interpretion, but it does have a factor.

But as far as Biblical interpretion is concerened, the Bible clearly states in Daniel 8 that in the last days a terrible leader who will cause great destruction will arise out of the area of the former empire of Alexander the Great, coincidentaly this area occupies most of the Muslim world.

Now the Muslims aslo have a prophecy of coming leader who will conquer the world for Islam.

The Funny thing is if you match Christian prophecy with Muslim Prophecy, they are basicly flip sides of a coin. The bad guys on one side are the good guys on the other and vice-versa. To me that is kind of creepy. Is it coincidence?!?

 

[GuyontheRight]

The Funny thing is if you match Christian prophecy with Muslim Prophecy, they are basicly flip sides of a coin. The bad guys on one side are the good guys on the other and vice-versa. To me that is kind of creepy. Is it coincidence?!?

Not If you belive Allah Is the Christian God as well. But as far as Im concerned, Islam just arose out of the need to make a "Arab religion" and many of it's ideas are copied from Christian writings.

 

[gladius]

Me personally, no, but that's just my opinion.

Alot of Ideas were copied, but as far as the prophecies go they may be copied, but we don't know that for sure, ...what if they weren't.

Its hard for me to imagine taking the ultimate personification of Satan from one religion, to form the ultimate hero of your own religion. Unless those setting up Islam purosely made it to be anti-Christian, then I don't see it. But then I again I could be wrong.

 

[GuyontheRight]

Me personally, no, but that's just my opinion.


I agree, islam Is a natural phenominon from my view, It was created because their was no uniting force In the Arab world.