The Best assault rifle in the world.
The G11 probably was just too revolutionary...and the timing was wrong.
A problem with even the versatile M16 layout is there's a lot of "stuff" hanging out that can snag or hang up,relative to a "clean" package like the G-11 that's externally very simple. The FN P 90 is rather interesting in that it DOES "package" neatly, there's not a lot to hang up on your chute,or the other guy in a Bradley,or some shrubs. You also can likely fire prone well,as there's no Mag on the bottom.
The square caseless rd,in theory,meant less weight + space. It also meant no need for an eject port. That makes it easier to be ambidextreous.
Without the road-testing most main assault rifles have had, it's hard to really say how the G-11 would stack up. Likely it would initially have some flaw that is only evident once in the field.
No, technically it was a smoothbore musket. The Pennsylvania Long Rifle was a true rifle and had much better range and accuracy but was a bit slower to load and fire. the Continental army did largely use muskets but I know Ben Franklin bought a bunch of RIFLES from W Penn gunsmiths..including some of my ancestors.
A Musket was a bit like firing a shotgun slug in that even at 100 m accuracy was not too good. A good Long Rifle in the right hands was quite effective as far as 400m:sniper:
CARLOSOTTA
New Member
Colmbia jungle ops..
The G36 (GERMANY) is good but too heavy and bulky, I saw it in trials in the Colombian (the anti terrorist spec.ops police units) jungle and adds too much weight to te already loaded soldiers........the Colombian choose the TAR 21....
The G36 (GERMANY) is good but too heavy and bulky, I saw it in trials in the Colombian (the anti terrorist spec.ops police units) jungle and adds too much weight to te already loaded soldiers........the Colombian choose the TAR 21....
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No "technically" about it, they are smoothbores. A .75 cal barrell firing buckshot, buck-n-ball, or a round ball that was 70-71 calibre & would bounce the length of the barrell. That's why they had to stand shoulder to shoulder in double ranks to hit anything over 50 yards. Rifle balls physically egraved into the grooves while loading & powder fouling made it quite difficult to load after 20 rounds.
I think that the poll was rigged, given that the AK-47 was not even mentioned...
"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."--Yuri Orlov--The Lord of War
"AK-47. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every mother****er in the room. Accept no substitutes."
-Ordell Robbie (Samuel L. Jackson), Jackie Brown (1997)
"Do you know why I do what I do? I mean, there are more prestigeous assignments. Keeping track of nuclear arsenels - you'd thing that more critical to world security. But its not. No, nine out of ten war victims today are killed with assault rifles and small arms - like yours. Those nuclear weapons sit in their silos. Your Ak-47, thats the real weapon of mass destruction."
-Jack Valentine The Lord of War
"This is the AK-47 assault rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy; and it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you, so remember it."--Gunny Highway (Clint Eastwood) Heartbreak Ridge
"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."--Yuri Orlov--The Lord of War
"AK-47. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every mother****er in the room. Accept no substitutes."
-Ordell Robbie (Samuel L. Jackson), Jackie Brown (1997)
"Do you know why I do what I do? I mean, there are more prestigeous assignments. Keeping track of nuclear arsenels - you'd thing that more critical to world security. But its not. No, nine out of ten war victims today are killed with assault rifles and small arms - like yours. Those nuclear weapons sit in their silos. Your Ak-47, thats the real weapon of mass destruction."
-Jack Valentine The Lord of War
"This is the AK-47 assault rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy; and it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you, so remember it."--Gunny Highway (Clint Eastwood) Heartbreak Ridge
The AK is a rather heavy but foolproof gun that's limited in it's accuracy but because it's as high tech as a clawhammer,can be mass produced and stands up to abuse.
The US Army could counter with the M14.
The best will always be what works for the mission and what you know. We have a war in Iraq where a lot of fights are short range urban. In A-Stan many firefights are long range. Both differ from V Nam where a key point was you often had to walk all day with a load in a steaming jungle. In A-Stan something like the 7.62 mm K-Tec bullpup would do well. Close quarters in Iraq? Scale up the FN P90 for the 45 ACP. The big WWIII scenario in central Europe,the M16 was well designed for that. I suspect the Tavor would have done well in V Nam.
The One Size Fits All idea has some big advantages,but as much as circumstances vary,it's a bit like car repair with a crescent wrench. We have been finding that trying to do everything with the 5.56 rd is pretty limiting in some cases.
The US Army could counter with the M14.
The best will always be what works for the mission and what you know. We have a war in Iraq where a lot of fights are short range urban. In A-Stan many firefights are long range. Both differ from V Nam where a key point was you often had to walk all day with a load in a steaming jungle. In A-Stan something like the 7.62 mm K-Tec bullpup would do well. Close quarters in Iraq? Scale up the FN P90 for the 45 ACP. The big WWIII scenario in central Europe,the M16 was well designed for that. I suspect the Tavor would have done well in V Nam.
The One Size Fits All idea has some big advantages,but as much as circumstances vary,it's a bit like car repair with a crescent wrench. We have been finding that trying to do everything with the 5.56 rd is pretty limiting in some cases.
Well, I think that reliability is extremely important in some conflicts like Vietnam... I think it was a battle in a very difficult terrain. In the jungle, you cant see the enemy even if he is lying 10meters from you.
So spray and pray is the way to go. And if you want to shoot tons of bullets... You need a weapon that can handle the heat and the repeated effort. Especially for the machine guns. And if you cant always keep the gun clean, you need a gun capable of handling a little dirt in its mechanisms.
So I still think that reliability is a key factor. We care too much for performances.
The gun have to be able to kill your targets. (good against body armor)
reliable
These are the most important points I think.
And I would leave the rest to the tactics and trainings. With these two traits, a gun can turn a skilled man into a real killing machine.
So spray and pray is the way to go. And if you want to shoot tons of bullets... You need a weapon that can handle the heat and the repeated effort. Especially for the machine guns. And if you cant always keep the gun clean, you need a gun capable of handling a little dirt in its mechanisms.
So I still think that reliability is a key factor. We care too much for performances.
The gun have to be able to kill your targets. (good against body armor)
reliable
These are the most important points I think.
And I would leave the rest to the tactics and trainings. With these two traits, a gun can turn a skilled man into a real killing machine.
19kilo30K4
Active member
In that movie, he also says that when the US goes to war we leave all our rifles there because it costs too much money to transport them home which ruined that movie for me. The moral of the story is don't base your opinions on movie quotes written by people who have as much understanding of guns as they have of war: none. I've had an AKM jam in my hands (stovepipe) before and the Iraqi Federal Police we have working with us have jams all the time with theirs. All weapons jam sometimes, even if it's not the weapon's fault. Sometimes you get a bad magazine, or a dead primer or an improperly loaded bullet and then it jams. There is no such thing as a weapon that cannot jam. My M4 regularly runs circles around the average AK variant here, regardless of what you may or may not read on the internet (usually written by someone who's handled neither weapon).
Bror Jace
Active member
Another point that I've made when debating M-16 vs. AK-47 (using these two basic models to simplify what could be a very detailed and technical discussion) is that armies which use the AK-47 historically suffer much higher casualty rates than armies that have used the M-16 family of weapons.
Of course there are a lot of related factors such as training, air/armor/artillery support, etc ... but it's one fact that should not be ignored.
Of course there are a lot of related factors such as training, air/armor/artillery support, etc ... but it's one fact that should not be ignored.
codeloach
Active member
Infantry weapon
Before the rifle it was the musket, before the musket it was spear and stabbing sword. Technology and needs drive the weapon. I see Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle being used like there was a real difference. To an infantry man its his weapon. The M1 of WW II was as far ahead of Springfield as the Ferguson rifle in the Revolutionary War compared to the India Pattern Brown Bess. I could continue with the Baker Rifle issued to British skirmishers in the Napoleanic war and the advantage it gave them but why run it into the ground.
I will just say that having jumped out of slicks with both an M-14 and the M-16 and humped the ammo for both I much prefer the M-16 to the bigger caliber heavier weapons.
I have seen men shot with 50 cal rounds 7.62, shredded by the ball berrings of a claymore, shrapnel, and M-16's. They all had the same thing in common, "They were Dead".
Before the rifle it was the musket, before the musket it was spear and stabbing sword. Technology and needs drive the weapon. I see Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle being used like there was a real difference. To an infantry man its his weapon. The M1 of WW II was as far ahead of Springfield as the Ferguson rifle in the Revolutionary War compared to the India Pattern Brown Bess. I could continue with the Baker Rifle issued to British skirmishers in the Napoleanic war and the advantage it gave them but why run it into the ground.
I will just say that having jumped out of slicks with both an M-14 and the M-16 and humped the ammo for both I much prefer the M-16 to the bigger caliber heavier weapons.
I have seen men shot with 50 cal rounds 7.62, shredded by the ball berrings of a claymore, shrapnel, and M-16's. They all had the same thing in common, "They were Dead".
hey guys, I think that the comparison between the M16 and the AK47 should be a different topic.
I dont ask people if they like a thompson submachine gun or an MP5. The MP5 is from another generation, the comparison is unfair.
To be fair, we would have to ask:
"if you had a group of soldiers. Would you equip them with AK47 for 20years. Or would you give them WW2 era weapons for 10 years before issuing them M16 for another 10years.
That would be fair. The Ak47 was on the field way before Stoner's baby. Stoner was a genius, and the M16 is a wonderful rifle. But would you wait 10 years on the battlefield waiting for it?
I dont ask people if they like a thompson submachine gun or an MP5. The MP5 is from another generation, the comparison is unfair.
To be fair, we would have to ask:
"if you had a group of soldiers. Would you equip them with AK47 for 20years. Or would you give them WW2 era weapons for 10 years before issuing them M16 for another 10years.
That would be fair. The Ak47 was on the field way before Stoner's baby. Stoner was a genius, and the M16 is a wonderful rifle. But would you wait 10 years on the battlefield waiting for it?
19kilo30K4
Active member
I don't really think that's an accurate comparison. You don't see modern armies arming themselves with K98 Mausers, but you do still see them using AK variants so why not compare them? The M2 .50 cal has been in action for most of this century, so does that mean we cannot compare it to modern machine guns? Of course not. How about the 1911? It's been in action for about 95 years now, so does that mean we cannot compare it to modern handguns? No, and the reason is because it's still being used. The AKS-74 looks and feels like an AK, but it is a current and relevent design, just like many AK variants. When a large portion of the world is still using it, then by definition the AK is not outdated. Many militaries have made the decision of using one or the other, and not all have went for the AR rifles, so that discussion still matters. I personally love the AK 74 series and am a huge fan of the Galil. Many AK variants do the job of killing just as well now as they did when they were invented. Comparing standard issue weapons for modern armies to WW2 weapons.... I dunno that would be like saying the AR design is outdated because it came out in the 60s.
Zastava-Arms
Banned
People seem to have forgotten the AN-94.
major liability
Active member
I think an AR with a PWS type piston system chambered for 6.5 Grendel would be a good choice out of the currently available rifles.
THE_RIFLES
New Member
the best assualt rifle in the world is the L85A2 (SA-80A2) it is small, fairly light not that much recoil, low muzzle climb, same stopping power as any other 5.56 calibre rifles and comes standerd with 4x SUSAT sight and its user freindly. Trust me i use it.
c/Commander
Active member
The M-14 was really nothing to sneeze at...
