So why do people hate Israel?

[VDKMS]

Smart butt??.... is it that you are naturally stupid, just don't understand what is being discussed, or are you just trying to be obtuse.

RayManKiller does understand, it's you that turns everything into a anti-zionist point of view.

Firstly we have already shown earlier that morality is not something that you can just change to suit your views. If this were so, there would be no "morality", as everyone would claim that their actions were morally correct "in their opinion".

And who has the authority to say what morality is or not. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court? And what with the countries who didn't sign and or ratify it? Do not forget that politics make rule of law. Not the way around.

Secondly, this discussion is not about "state or federal laws" but, crimes against humanity. If your opinion were correct, we could never have charged most war criminals, as they were nearly always obeying laws that were quite legal in their own country at that time. How many times do you have to be told these things?

Well, suppose someone is a police officer in a country with a law that says that all ... must be killed, if you do not obey that law you get the death penalty. What is that person going to do? If he disobeys the law he get shot. Case closed. If he obeys the law he risks being accused by the ICC for crimes against humanity. What would you do?
Do not forget that most, if not all, war criminals were convicted after their country was conquered or liberated. One is still running his country (Sudan)

 

[VDKMS]

Quick question would you feel the same if it were your land?

I'll give you my amswer MontyB.
You fight within the rule of law. I clarify.

In Antwerp (Belgium) there's a big muslim minority. Most local people don't like them. We could arm ourselfs but we don't, we stay within the rule of law. That's why there's a big right wing political party that gets many votes. The muslims came there legally (like the Jews in the region of Palestine). They bought property from the locals. (like the Jews in the region of Palestine). We didn't attack them like the Arab Palestinians did and still do. They cannot declare a state for themselves unless the Belgian government decides to give them one. The Jews couldn't declare a state for themselves unless the rulers decided to do so, and they did! For the Jews AND the Palestinians.
So, when you get a country from the UN and you get attacked by troops who rejected their country doesn't that give you the right to fight back?

Now about the "people who live there". Look at a timeline of maps here.
Who decided about the foundation and the borders of all those new countries? The people who lived there or the ones who ruled there? First come politics, then rule of law (created by the politics) then the people who live there. (in a democracy they choose the politics).

 

[senojekips]

What's wrong with Ben Gurion's quotes? He does not give his point of view but the Palestinian one. How they see it. He knew his "enemy".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his quotes as they show that he understood that Israel was wrong in taking the land of another people. They also clearly show that he understood that the land did belong to the Palestinian people.

RayManKiller does understand, it's you that turns everything into a anti-zionist point of view.

So you keep saying,.... The truth would be nearer to, "He understands your point of view", which explains a lot, as it is totally without either legal or moral support, being exactly the same quality and veracity, as that of a Nazi apologist in the 1930s.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Today's Zionist tidbit. (Read "Lie")
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

 

[VDKMS]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his quotes as they show that he understood that Israel was wrong in taking the land of another people. They also clearly show that he understood that the land did belong to the Palestinian people.

You better read that statement as many times as you can untill you understand it.

S
Today's Zionist tidbit. (Read "Lie")
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

Well you did it again. You leave out someting. Here is the more complet quote:
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to. We can't send it to Nasser by parcel post . (March 8, 1969.)"

That statement reflects accurately the politics of the time. Jordan was a great supporter of the Three Nos (No Peace, Recognition, or Negotiations with Israel), as was Egypt, and the PLO which untill three years before that had renounced it's claims to Gaza Strip and the West Bank. To put it simply there was no Peace Partner.

 

[senojekips]

You better read that statement as many times as you can untill you understand it.

Unlike yourself, I understood it on the first reading as I had no need to distort what was actually said to suit my needs. Like RayManKiller, you would find it far easier to read what is written, rather than trying to distort it into what you would have liked it to have said.

Well you did it again. You leave out someting. Here is the more complet quote:
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to. We can't send it to Nasser by parcel post . (March 8, 1969.)"

I left out many things, including Golda's famous recipe for her Passover Chicken Broth, none of which made the slightest difference to what was actually said. The implication was still there that there were no Palestinian people. This was further reinforced by her statement only a few months later, “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
– Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

You see, it's far easier to just quote the truth than to constantly be looking for ways of excusing what was said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's today's Zionist tidbit, demonstrating the mentality and intent of these animals. And Yes,... I know, I have shortened it, because it made no difference to the intent of what was said and No, I don't think it was written in someone's diary.
[FONT=verdana,arial]"The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial]-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.[/FONT]

 

[RayManKiller3]

Unlike yourself, I understood it on the first reading as I had no need to distort what was actually said to suit my needs. Like RayManKiller, you should read what is written, rather than trying to make it into what you would have liked it to have said.

What I see in that quote is the person showing the view of the Palestinians. It is not necessarily agreeing with them (that it is the Palestinian land nor is it saying the Jews are trying to take it); it is simply what the Palestinians believe is going on. That is how I interpreted the quote. Words can be twisted unless extremely specific anyways. You kind of did the same thing by not pointing out "politically" in the quote, which can change interpretation. Even a single word being left out or being put in can change interpretation.

 

[senojekips]

What I see in that quote is the person showing the view of the Palestinians. It is not necessarily agreeing with them .

Are you blind or just don't bother reading people's posts.

Like RayManKiller, you would find it far easier to read what is written, rather than trying to distort it into what you would have liked it to have said.

 

[Yossarian]

I have always held a very neutral view on the situation described here.

Although I don't always agree with Israel's uses of force, I also don't agree with seeing it wiped off the map, or the entire region thrown into chaos from any imploding tensions there.

I also hope for the very best for the Palestinians, but there is little more I can do in that respect, I do wish for them to have representation and a chance at an equal quality of life as their neighbors over the fence, but about a thousand different complications make that ever more difficult.

 

[LeEnfield]

Just for a minute put your self in the Palestinian camp and ask your self what you would do if you were them.
A group of people are awarded people are awarded by the UN a chunk of your country that has been yours for nearly two thousand years. Now this does not go down well with the people that had been living there for years so there is an uprising and with the help of a powerful friend this is put down and several million of the original people are now pushed off this ground and made stateless with out any compensation. Now there are several other conflicts over this territory by adjoining countries and again with help from a super power they lose out every time. Now the interlopers are so strong that groups of armed civilians will take your land force to build settlements on and if you object you can well be killed along with your family.
When the settlement is built they need roads to travel to and from the settlements so the roads are built across your land and any Palestinian that lives any where near that road will have his house blown up for security reasons.
All goods going in to Palestine have to go threw an Israeli port and are taxed which you have to pay. To over come this the Palestinians built both an air port and a small Port to over come this tax, but the Israelis destroyed these. so that they had complete control over just what went into Palestine and carried on getting the tax.
Now the Israelis were complaining about security to one of there settlements so the Palestinians put four of their police officers there to make sure nothing would happen, but it did they were shot by the Israeli settlers.
Now America broke away from the UK over a tax on imported goods to pay for the forces that protected them from the red Indians. Yet they are happy see a friend kill many helpless people and impose on them conditions that they would never accept.
Do I think the Israelis should be able to live there in peace, well yes I do but this will never happen unless they can treat the other residents with respect.
Can I ask you this question if you were a Palestinian would you take up arms and fight for what little you have left.

 

[senojekips]

Can I ask you this question if you were a Palestinian would you take up arms and fight for what little you have left.

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'll answer anyway.

No,... I would take up arms to fight for all of what was mine. Why should I or anyone else be expected to settle for less.

The current situation in Palestine reminds me of the old adage. "One man's "joke", is no more than something really nasty, that happens to someone else".

 

[Yossarian]

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'll answer anyway.

No,... I would take up arms to fight for all of what was mine. Why should I or anyone else be expected to settle for less.

The current situation in Palestine reminds me of the old adage. "One man's "joke", is no more than something really nasty, that happens to someone else".

The Reason I have a neutral bias is I honstly have no idea what do you do with the people of Israel then?

I would love to see coeixsistance with all peoples of the region afforded the same rights and quality of life.

But through the situation and the reccuring theme I pick up from the half or so dozen threads like this one here, is that I don't really see a clear answer to that question.

I know the the Israeli claim to Palestine is not a just one, but what do you with the Israeli population? Mass genocide? Relocate them? Where? Where do you send millions of people to? Anartica?

With that said the only thing I can say I support is coexsistance, when the fences are gone, the settlements are no longer built, the tarriffs and taxes taken away and all peoples of the region are given free travel and a fair chance to have fullfilling and meaningful lives.

Israel has created a situation that spawns for terrorism and interests from extreme states in the form of weapons and training from adversaries such as Iran, so I won't even blame Palestinans for any terror groups operating in their name, being as their land was occupied in the first place.

But back to my first question, what do you do with the now second third and fourth generation of Israelis who were born there?

 

[RayManKiller3]

Just for a minute put your self in the Palestinian camp and ask your self what you would do if you were them.
A group of people are awarded people are awarded by the UN a chunk of your country that has been yours for nearly two thousand years. Now this does not go down well with the people that had been living there for years so there is an uprising and with the help of a powerful friend this is put down and several million of the original people are now pushed off this ground and made stateless with out any compensation. Now there are several other conflicts over this territory by adjoining countries and again with help from a super power they lose out every time. Now the interlopers are so strong that groups of armed civilians will take your land force to build settlements on and if you object you can well be killed along with your family.
When the settlement is built they need roads to travel to and from the settlements so the roads are built across your land and any Palestinian that lives any where near that road will have his house blown up for security reasons.
All goods going in to Palestine have to go threw an Israeli port and are taxed which you have to pay. To over come this the Palestinians built both an air port and a small Port to over come this tax, but the Israelis destroyed these. so that they had complete control over just what went into Palestine and carried on getting the tax.
Now the Israelis were complaining about security to one of there settlements so the Palestinians put four of their police officers there to make sure nothing would happen, but it did they were shot by the Israeli settlers.
Now America broke away from the UK over a tax on imported goods to pay for the forces that protected them from the red Indians. Yet they are happy see a friend kill many helpless people and impose on them conditions that they would never accept.
Do I think the Israelis should be able to live there in peace, well yes I do but this will never happen unless they can treat the other residents with respect.
Can I ask you this question if you were a Palestinian would you take up arms and fight for what little you have left.

You simplified the the position of the settlers. The reasons U.S broke from UK was because they were getting taxed (and UK claimed its territories as theis) without representation. The tax was always put on them to pay for the French and Indian War. In which cases, that war had almost nothing to do with the settlers except the fact they had to obey the crown, so they didnt see this as their responsibility. Remember that was was specifically about Britain and France, the settlers just got caugh in it.


A country will always have enemies no matter how nice it tries to be, so you can scratch that off. How about a question for you; do you expect Israel to sit by and let Palestinian terrorist come to their territory and kill their civillians?

I understand why they are fighting, but it is their methods that estrange them. You don't win over hearts by killing civillians purposely and then being called "hero" or celebrated. When U.S kills civillians accidentally, they get the heat and so do Israel.

You ignored everything the Palestinians did which prompted Israel's reactions (not saying Israel didn't start some stuff themselves though).

 

[LeEnfield]

Ray Mankiller3 Taxation with out representation, I wonder what representation the Palestinians get. Also do you expect the Palestinians to sit by while there land is stolen and their people are killed by bands of armed Israeli civilians. What I was suggesting that you do is just to think what you would do if you were a Palestinian.
Would you just sit there and say thank you, or would you fight back

 

[RayManKiller3]

Israel has created a situation that spawns for terrorism and interests from extreme states in the form of weapons and training from adversaries such as Iran, so I won't even blame Palestinans for any terror groups operating in their name, being as their land was occupied in the first place.

So you don't blame Palestine for not showing some backbone by letting other governments and people know that those terrorists do not represent them?

If they denounce these actions they will see how the terrorist really are; they will start being targeted themselves. Due to them becoming enemy of terrorists, terrorists won't be able to chant "save Palestine" as effective as they do now.

You can't effectively use terrorism without true support. Terrorism works off the hatred that supports them, as I said before, this should not be tolerated in any way.

If you do not state that you are not for something, then your just as guilty as those who claims you are with them. Your reasoning is flawed (but that is just my opinion). In many cases here in U.S this has been so.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Ray Mankiller3 Taxation with out representation, I wonder what representation the Palestinians get. Also do you expect the Palestinians to sit by while there land is stolen and their people are killed by bands of armed Israeli civilians. What I was suggesting that you do is just to think what you would do if you were a Palestinian.
Would you just sit there and say thank you, or would you fight back

Again, you are still simplifying it. Read my whole statement, and not just cherry pick one of them. The UK claimed U.S settkers territories as its own, but yet they had no representation, not to mention they were getting taxed for Britian's war with France.

I wouldn't fight back by killing the unarmed civillians, that is for sure and like I said, that is what estranges them.

 

[Yossarian]

So you don't blame Palestine for not showing some backbone by letting other governments and people know that those terrorists do not represent them?

If they denounce these actions they will see how the terrorist really are; they will start being targeted themselves. Due to them becoming enemy of terrorists, terrorists won't be able to chant "save Palestine" as effective as they do now.

You can't effectively use terrorism without true support. Terrorism works off the hatred that supports them, as I said before, this should not be tolerated in any way.

If you do not state that you are not for something, then your just as guilty as those who claims you are with them. Your reasoning is flawed (but that is just my opinion). In many cases here in U.S this has been so.

Please keep in mind I am not a expert in this region, nor the most educated on the history of this region.

All I can trust really with my bare concept and limited resources on the events there, is that of which dencounces the things that I would catergorize as "terrible".

Without any true insight, I must look at the situation , at the known factors and merely ask what I would do or think If I was either Palestinian or Israeli, even then anything I will post would be very conservitive.

That is why I am so inherently neutral on this topic.

 

[MontyB]

The Reason I have a neutral bias is I honstly have no idea what do you do with the people of Israel then?

I would love to see coeixsistance with all peoples of the region afforded the same rights and quality of life.

But through the situation and the reccuring theme I pick up from the half or so dozen threads like this one here, is that I don't really see a clear answer to that question.

I know the the Israeli claim to Palestine is not a just one, but what do you with the Israeli population? Mass genocide? Relocate them? Where? Where do you send millions of people to? Anartica?

With that said the only thing I can say I support is coexsistance, when the fences are gone, the settlements are no longer built, the tarriffs and taxes taken away and all peoples of the region are given free travel and a fair chance to have fullfilling and meaningful lives.

Israel has created a situation that spawns for terrorism and interests from extreme states in the form of weapons and training from adversaries such as Iran, so I won't even blame Palestinans for any terror groups operating in their name, being as their land was occupied in the first place.

But back to my first question, what do you do with the now second third and fourth generation of Israelis who were born there?

Personally I think the only way of achieving anything that will not create a huge humanitarian mess is to create a Palestinian state in name only with genuine borders:
This will:
1) Serve to stop Israeli expansion, through the knowledge that any building in these areas will have to be handed back once the Palestinian state comes into force.
2) Allow the Palestinians to negotiate as equals with Israel on final borders.
3) Give Palestinians and Israeli's some hope that this idiocy will end some day.

With luck 50-100 years of peace may bring a realisation that a single state is a far saner option but it will never happen until peace becomes entrenched enough that people no longer with to fight each other.

The problem currently is that without any recognised borders Israel continues to build and I have no doubt will try and claim that land in any settlement and while they continue to do that there is no incentive for Palestinians to negotiate any more than Israel will, the key to this mess is in my opinion to recognise the borders of a Palestinian state as only that will bring both parties to the negotiating table.

 

[LeEnfield]

To end any dispute there needs to give and take on both sides, now just what are the Israelis prepared to give up as they have spread them them selfs right across what was Palestine and what they have taken by force they are prepared to hold by force, and lets face it the settlers are still taking the Palestine land by force, so if the Palestinians fight to try and hold what is theirs why are they called terrorist. Yes in this dispute civlians are being killed on both sides but at the moment the Israelis have the loudest voice so the Palestinians are getting all the blame.

 

[MontyB]

To end any dispute there needs to give and take on both sides, now just what are the Israelis prepared to give up as they have spread them them selfs right across what was Palestine and what they have taken by force they are prepared to hold by force, and lets face it the settlers are still taking the Palestine land by force, so if the Palestinians fight to try and hold what is theirs why are they called terrorist. Yes in this dispute civlians are being killed on both sides but at the moment the Israelis have the loudest voice so the Palestinians are getting all the blame.

I agree, I think the biggest assumption being made in these threads is that Israel actually wants peace when they are the only ones that are gaining by continued warfare.

Personally I doubt Israel wants peace any more than Hamas or Hezbollah do as the minute peace breaks out Israel's expansion comes to an end, hence the reason we get these half hearted settlement offers that they know the Palestinians can not accept (kind of like me taking over your property wondering why you wont just accept a bathroom for peace).

 

[senojekips]

The Reason I have a neutral bias is I honstly have no idea what do you do with the people of Israel then?

I'm neutral about the US Sports results, and if you care to look, you won't find a single comment there from me. So let's be honest for a start. You are obviously not truly neutral, otherwise you wouldn't be here on this thread. If you were neutral you just wouldn't care, which I find stupid, as thousands of your US servicemen are being killed in wars that have arisen from the US political decision to support Israel. If you are not willing to do some honest research and find why these things are happening, you may as well go back to bed, and the last place you should be is making statements in a thread like this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's put it really simply then.

I think that I'd like to live in your house and steal all of your land and possessions because my great great grandfather said it was promised to him by god. So I move in and paint the house which I say was run down, then I invite all of my relatives and friends to move in and take whatever they want, while turning a blind eye to the fact that they are now following you wherever you settle down and stealing that land too. In the mean time I generally treat you like an animal, regularly beating harassing and murdering any of your relatives and their families, especially those who try to interfere on your behalf.

After 60+ years of this stupidity, you or your descendants take me to court. I lose the case and I'm ordered that everything that was once yours must be returned to you.

Would I hear you asking the judge, "but what about poor old Spike and his relatives, they won't have anywhere to live"?