elaborate please.
So why do people hate Israel?
elaborate please.
senojekips
Active member
Why don't you use you damned brain.
A short excerpt to give you some clues
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Another tidbit,
“Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice.
We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice.” (Moshe Dayan)
you are right about Hamas not about the others.
Another fabrication. Ben Gurion NEVER said that.
Filmmaker Porter Speakman, Jr., producer and director of the 2010 movie With God on Our Side, has issued a press release acknowledging that a quote attributed to David Ben-Gurion by historian Ilan Pappé is not reliable.
In his 2006 book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (Oneworld Publications), Pappé reported that in a 1937 letter to his son, David Ben-Gurion wrote the following: “The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war.”
It's a damning quote and is featured prominently in With God on Our Side. But it does not appear in any of the sources Pappé cites.
In his book, Pappé provided two references for this quote. The first reference is the July 12, 1937 entry of Ben-Gurion's diary. The second is page 220 of the August-September 1937 issue of New Judea, a newsletter published by the World Zionist Organization.
CAMERA provided electronic copies of both of these sources – neither of which include the quote attributed to Ben-Gurion – to Speakman earlier this week.
In response Speakman issued a press release that states in part:
… this quote cannot be found in the original sources of Ben Gurion's diary and therefore cannot be verified as authentic. While references to this quote exist, we could not find it in its original form. In an effort to be transparent and accurate, the producers have decided to take the extra step of removing it from future printings of "With God On Our Side." We apologize for this change.
senojekips
Active member
I'll stand corrected.
However, Israel still has more resolutions raised against it than any other country, (including the other alleged "rogue states"). AND you very conveniently forgot to include the general assembly Resolutions.
Masada2000.org said:
You messed up too it seems.
senojekips
Active member
Denial will get you nowhere, the evidence shows otherwise. In fact this travesty of justice is responsible for the unification and all the Global Islamic terror we see today.
Of course not. LOL.. Denial, Denial Denial.
Wikiquote no longer allows unsourced quotations, and they are in process of being removed from our pages (see Wikiquote:Limits on quotations); but if you can provide a reliable, precise and verifiable source for any quote on this list please move it to Moshe Dayan. --Antiquary 20:43, 24 June 2009
- Freedom is the oxygen of the soul.
- I know of nothing more exciting than war.
- If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.
- Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice.
- We have returned to the holiest of our Holy Places, never to part from it again.
- On the unification of Jerusalem by Israeli forces
Why don't you if you are so sure?
You're getting old!
from 24 jan 1946 up to 17 dec 1975 there were 3541 UN General assembly resolutions. From 1976 onwards the count starts again at the beginning of the year. There are more than 200 resolutions each year. Go figure!
UN page here.
senojekips
Active member
Don't worry, the facts are recorded in enough other places that they will not be smothered by Zionist attempts to distort history. Like I said above, I don't write the facts I only report them, neither do I try to distort them by degrees as the Israelis do running classes to teach volunteers how to distort that which is reported in Wikipedia, because this is where they can infiltrate their propagandists unlike previous peer reviewed publications where their deceptions would soon be discovered and removed. Legitimate review was attempted in a small way but largely given up on in the case of Israeli propaganda as the propagandists flooded it with huge numbers of small but significant distortions.
| Zionists Being Trained to Distort the Truth | |
So widespread around the world is the ill feeling and distrust of Zionism and its murderous policies, Racism, Ethnic cleansing and dispossession, that Israel finds it necessary do this, no other country that I know of in the world finds this necessary. They will do absolutely anything to avoid facing up to the question, "Why is it that we are we so despised and distrusted"? The reason, they know the answer but like children refuse to admit to the truth.
It's the standard Zionist ploy, change the truth by degrees and back it with similar distortions provided by similar pro-zionist sources in an attempt to "change" the truth (read "tell lies"), The first job being to slowly and steadily distort the known truth on sites like Wikipedia.
If you think a little this ploy is a perfect image of what Israel is doing with their acquisition of land. Make many small but illegal land seizures and hang onto them. All the time denying insisting that they are done for "Security". The available evidence shows this to be patently false as is nearly everything else that they say.
As I said above, unlike yourself, I don't try to manufacture the truth, I just report what is written, in this case by a pro-zionist site Masada.org.
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| Jews For Justice For Palestinians | |
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Nice dodge, unfortunately nothing to do with the quote. I certainly don't remember saying that it was an excerpt from his diary?
Here's another tidbit that "nobody said" or wrote in their diary.:wink:
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979. Yeah, that's right, they were censored,... no doubt, another attempt to distort history.
[sarcasm] Yep, I already know,... he never said that.[/sarcasm](I must apologise, I seem to have misplaced my book of standard Zionist/Israeli denials, but having read them all enough times, I just thought that I'd demonstrate my vast knowledge and get in before you did)
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It is not because you find it in many places that lies or the distortion of facts become true.
You just take things you like to hear, wehter they are true or not, as long as they are anti-Israel. The web sites that tell things you don't like are in your eyes zionist propaganda.
This is a perfect example of your thinking. You only look at the anti side and ignore the other. This gives you the impression that "everyone" is against.
No it isn't, because if you find something on Wikipedia that you like it is the truth, if someone else quotes Wikipedia and you don't like it, it is distorted.
They cleared all settlements from the Sinai and Gaza.
Why do you worry about the settlements in the West Bank? If there ever is going to be a Palestinian state it will be up to the 1967 borders and the settlements will fall into Palestinian land. The Palestinian leadership is so obsessed, like you, with Israel that they overlook to take care of their people for which they are responible. Like I said before, 2 generations were left in poverty because of that. If you want to solve a problem, start with yourself first!
So, if you report what is written, you do not verify do you?
18 sep 2011
One of the reasons that the Palestinians will never get full membership is because they would keep directing the attention of the world, to the the number of UN Resolutions that the Israelis have violated or refused to comply with (more than the total for all members combined), and blatant violations of International Law.
25 sep 2011
They are in contravention of more International Laws and UN resolutions] than all of the other members combined and more closely fit the description of a Rogue State than a democracy.
3 weeks ago
I will say it again, you are wrong, and the single fact that so many International organisations have condemned Israel, and that they have had more UNHRC resolutions raised against them than all other countries combined, is ample proof that I am correct.
3 weeks ago
I will say it again, the single fact that so many International organisations have condemned israel and that they have had more UNHRC resolutions raised against them than all other countries combined, is ample proof that I am correct.
3weeks ago
I will say it again, you are wrong, and the single fact that so many International organisations have condemned Israel, and that they have had more UNHRC resolutions raised against them than all other countries combined, is ample proof that I am correct.
2 weeks ago
and the fact that Israel has more UN resolutions raised against it's behaviour than all other countries combined.
1 week ago
Is it not true that Israel has the dubious honour of having had more resolutions raised against it's criminal behaviour than all other countries combined? And yet you have the unmitigated gall to comment upon the company that others keep,...
5 days ago
Again, you focus on blaming the Palestinians, completely ignoring such facts as Israel having had more condemnatory UN resolutions than every other country put together. If you had even the slightest power of reasoning this would give you some clue as to who the actual wrong doers are.
5 days ago
Well, that is exactly what these Arabs have done isn't it? They have elected to join a terrorist group that has earned more condemnatory UN resolutions than every other country in the world,... altogether.
1 day ago
You totally ignore the fact that they are the one country with more UN resolutions raised against them than all other countries in the world combined.
I just report what is written by you, and you were wrong all the time. You NEVER took the time to check it at the genuine UN pages. What about your other facts, didn't you verify them either?
Nice dodge? Of course you didn't say the excerpt came from his diary because you didn't know. You, again, didn't verify it. And it has everything to do with the quote.
Here's yours again:
Another little Zionist gem, another admission of criminal intent.
“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as war” (Ben Gurion)
I proved it was a distortion of the facts.(again)
No, you can find that quote in the book "The Rabin memoirs" from Rabin himself (I verified it), you can read the book here. But it is also important to say this : " Clearly, we could not leave Lod's hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route to Yiftach (another brigade) which was advancing eastward." That came before the question you quoted was asked. No sane commander wants an armed enemy behind his defensive lines!
Part 2
There's nothing wrong with that. If an Arab sells his land he could easely resettle somewhere else in the Ottoman Empire. This proves that the "Zionists" cared that the Arab who sold his property could settle somewhere else.
The quote of the Balflour letter is not exact, here's the genuine one : "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people," You can find pictures of the declaration on Google Pictures. I checked several of them bacause some are with logo and/or mark
It's important to say here that with "gradually displaced " was ment "buying out" not expell.
The Arabs new the Jews were comming and were not against it. Do not forget that the Palestinian Arabs were not in high regard by the Arab leadership.
"The resources of the country (Palestine) are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him.... At the same time, we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, and America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons [abna'ihi-l-asliyin], for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles [jaliya] to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and all things connected to the land." Hussein Ibn-Ali, Sheriff of Mecca, Mecca's Al Qibla, in 1918.
Again some words are left out which distorts the facts somewhat. The phrase of William Bullitt was : “Many times during the Peace Conference in Paris I joined him [i.e., Aaronsohn] and Dr. Weizmann at a time while both were considering and assessing policies and plans. Aaronsohn’s proposal was the following: While Palestine must be made a Jewish state, the vast valley of Iraq, which is irrigated by the Euphrates and Tigris, should be restored, through the use of planned irrigation, to be the paradise of the world … and furthermore the Arabs of Palestine should be offered lands there … to which as many Arabs as possible should be persuaded to emigrate.” Also in Weizmann's "famous" words something is left out : "By a Jewish National Home I mean the creation of such conditions that as the country is developed we can pour in a considerable number of immigrants, and finally establish such a society in Palestine that Palestine shall be as Jewish as England is English, or America American." We all know that America is a country with a multitude of cultures. You can also read the explanation of it in the Churchill White Paper : "They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded "in Palestine." In this connection it has been observed with satisfaction that at a meeting of the Zionist Congress, the supreme governing body of the Zionist Organization, held at Carlsbad in September, 1921, a resolution was passed expressing as the official statement of Zionist aims "the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development"'.
senojekips
Active member
I'm only anti Israel as I would have been anti Nazi, after all someone has to have some moral backbone, it's quite obvious that you have none. Similarly, just because something is denied in a Zionist inspired site does not mean that it's not true.
One can only base their answers on the facts as they are presented, and the fact is that there is a lot more anti zionist sentiment in the world than support for their criminal activities. Pretty simple really. (but only if you are un-biased) It's obviously true, you only have to ask any Zionist, and they'll soon tell you how the whole world is against them,... but they never actually ask why is it so, because they know the answer and don't wish to hear it..
Once again, it's pretty obvious when a rogue state actually goes to the bother of running classes that they admit are designed to change the information supplied. Why is it that no other country finds this deceitful behaviour necessary.
West bank? You kid yourself. I'm talking of the settlements in Palestine, all of it.
In this case no, if it's good enough for you to quote from pro zionist sources surely it is OK for me to do the same.
The reason they won't get full membership will come down to the US veto. And if you read my reply i withdrew that statement and modified it to
You go on about this as if it somehow absolves Israel of it's status as the world's most recalcitrant criminal state and denier of Human Rights. As I said above, if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander, after all it was a pro zionist site I quoted from. Or are you admitting that pro zionist propaganda is just that, propaganda?
Not at all,... all you said is that it was that it wasn't in his diary,... 99% of his life was probably "not in his diary", especially the pieces that he knows would further incriminate him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Today's tidbit. No doubt this is also not in someone or another's diary or was never actually said, and NO! I didn't bother to go and check it either.:roll:
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, (The Butcher of Beirut) Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Once again I have tried to avoid this thread like a scorching case of herpes but I guess it is time to interrupt the Spike and VD show to point out that your argument works both ways, I wouldn't trust what the Israeli's tell me any more than I believe what Hamas have to say on the issues they are both just peddling their cause and the truth is expendable.
In the end you are both just peddling the one line.
For the record though if I had to choose a side in this it would probably be the Palestinian side given that they are on the losing end of almost all of these confrontations and it is very difficult to believe they are voluntarily giving all their land away as part of a conspiracy.
Or in other words it is this image that tells me Israel is the agressor and in the wrong...
Had they stayed within there borders I probably would be pro-Israeli but the fact is they just committing slow motion genocide as part of a land grab.
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senojekips
Active member
You are quite correct, I am only pushing the one line, but I do have the decided advantage in that my one line is supported Internationally, both legally and morally. Unless you can see a valid reason why I should support an argument against these legal and moral values, I see it as the only way that I (and anybody with an ounce of human decency) can possibly go.
The Jewish people have quite rightfully never let it be forgotten about when the world last ignored a similar situation and a group of people were treated like animals.
Yes,... I am fully aware of the perils of arguing a moral argument with people who are totally devoid of moral principle themselves, but it is better than just allowing them to peddle their lies and distortions without opposition. It's like soldiers going to war Monty, no one really wants to do it, but there are some things that just have to be done.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I am not going to argue that either you or VDKMS should change your views to accommodate the others point of view I am just asking you both to realise that neither of you are necessarily pushing the absolute truth and that both sides in this battle (Palestinians and Israeli's) have skeletons hidden in the closet.
I do agree that this is not a topic where only one sides story can be allowed to stand unchallenged but I tend to think that having both parties stand at opposite ends of a room and shouting the same story over and over at each other is not really a productive option.
senojekips
Active member
It's not that difficult really, if the Zionists had not insisted on occupying the land of another people against their wishes, there never would have been any skeletons.
It's not about being "productive", the facts are all there for anyone who's interested, it's more a matter of denying the aggressors the ability to freely spread their distorted message blaming the victims for what has happened.
Or in other words it is this image that tells me Israel is the agressor and in the wrong...
Had they stayed within there borders I probably would be pro-Israeli but the fact is they just committing slow motion genocide as part of a land grab.
The reason why I reply on your post is because senojekips and 84RFK liked it (so it is 3 to 1
). It's a good example of how things gets distorted. When we look at the map we see in white the "Jewish land" and in green the "Palestinian land". Stage 2, 3 and 4 are, as far as I know, correct. The first one is distorted because it gives not Jewish land/Palestinian land but Jewish owned land (ownership)/non jewish owned land. Below the picture with explanation.remark : up until the partition there was neither a Jewish land (unless we go back more than 2000 years ) nor a Palestinian land (never was). Only the region of Palestine which was governed by the British through a mandate.
I also want to point out that (about the immigration of the Jews) it was either the Ottoman Empire or the British mandate who decided who was allowed to settle (legally) in the region of Palestine. The local population (Arabs, Christians and Jews) had no say in it. The Jews did not stole the land of the local population (again - Arabs, Christians and Jews) but bought it. In order to buy land someone else has to sell it. If the "palestinians" hadn't sold their land to the Jews then the Jews couldn't have any "Palestinian" land.
Stage two was accepted by the Jews but not by the Arabs. Both of them had the right to accept or deny what was "given" to them. None of the two got what they asked for. Again it was the UN who had the power to divide the land not the local population (Arabs, Christians and Jews). The southern triangle on the map is desert, no one lived there but the semisedentary Bedouins. Stage 3 was created because of the Arab attack on the newly born state of Israel. That attack was not because of the Jews in "Palestine" but because of a non-muslim state on muslim land. Do not forget that the Arab leadership welcomed the Jews after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire but didn't want a Jewish state. Stage 4 was created after the Oslo accords with the PLO.
So, except for the current settlements, Israel stayed within their borders.
Sooner or later the map of Palestine will look like stage 3.
Now, can any one of you tell me why the "Palestinians" only wanted a state AFTER there was word of a Jewish state?
Can any one of you tell me why the Palestinians didn't revolt against the Turks or fought with the allies (including Jews!)and Arabs when they attacked the Ottoman Empire to get an independent state?
I advise you that before answering those questions immediately, do some research om how the Arabs lived in Palestine and how and why Islam got all those muslim land.
Here are some links:
The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931
An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine, during the period 1st July, 1920 - 30th June, 1921 - League of Nations
And last but not least, have a look at the Hamas charter here.
israeli settlers are different from the majority of israelis, who are opposed to their actions.
the majority of israelis support the two state solution and self determination for both themselves and the palestinians.
i understand that we do not see eye to eye on this issue, but i do not believe it is okay to slander an entire population, aka all jewish israelis
the majority of israelis support the two state solution and self determination for both themselves and the palestinians.
i understand that we do not see eye to eye on this issue, but i do not believe it is okay to slander an entire population, aka all jewish israelis
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The reason why I reply on your post is because senojekips and 84RFK liked it (so it is 3 to 1
Here is your problem do you honestly think that before I decided I liked the map I didn't go and check the information it contained to ensure that it was "reasonably" accurate?
Yeah I know it is not 100% accurate but quite honestly even if it was only 20% accurate it still proves the same point, Palestinians are losing land to Israeli settlement so all I have to decide is whether that loss is legitimate (ie selling up and moving on to better pastures else where) or illegitimate (ie being forced off through various methods and their land being taken) I tend to believe it is the latter.
You know the most common statement in Germany after WW2 was "No I didn't support the Nazi's and I could not do anything to stop them" so sorry but heard it before and the world didn't believe it then either, guilt by association can be a bastard.
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84RFK
Active member
Well, my "like" was mostly based upon the last set of maps showing that the areas under the Palestinian "Authorities" is more or less a chessboard with little to no physical contact between the "green squares" and only limited movement allowed along the checkered board.
So the settlers in the occupied territories is a "cheap way" of claiming territory, but also quite expeensive for Israel since the IDF have to guard every single settlement, even those who recieve no financial support from the Israeli government, and the surrounding area with access routes and communication lines.
In my opinion, the State of Israel is a unquestionable and undeniable fact, the debate should be focused on the settlers and the Israeli policies in the occupied territories.
Another fact is that Israeli retaliation against agression from the Palestinian side has more than often claimed a substantial collateral damage, and civil infrastructure has often been the target of their military operations.
Back when Arafat was still alive, and partly in charge, Palestinian police stations was a favoured target of the IDF.
Bombing police stations into a pile of rubble, and then accuse the Palestinian Authorities for not being able to keep terrorists in check, sounds a bit contradictive in my ears.
I believe Ive said it before, but an Israeli state based on the pre-67 borders, Jerusalem under international control, all settlements disbanded and a Palestinian state on the rest of the territory, that would be a good start.
In such case, the state of Israel would have the perfectly moral and internationally recognized right to act against agression from the other side.
So the settlers in the occupied territories is a "cheap way" of claiming territory, but also quite expeensive for Israel since the IDF have to guard every single settlement, even those who recieve no financial support from the Israeli government, and the surrounding area with access routes and communication lines.
In my opinion, the State of Israel is a unquestionable and undeniable fact, the debate should be focused on the settlers and the Israeli policies in the occupied territories.
Another fact is that Israeli retaliation against agression from the Palestinian side has more than often claimed a substantial collateral damage, and civil infrastructure has often been the target of their military operations.
Back when Arafat was still alive, and partly in charge, Palestinian police stations was a favoured target of the IDF.
Bombing police stations into a pile of rubble, and then accuse the Palestinian Authorities for not being able to keep terrorists in check, sounds a bit contradictive in my ears.
I believe Ive said it before, but an Israeli state based on the pre-67 borders, Jerusalem under international control, all settlements disbanded and a Palestinian state on the rest of the territory, that would be a good start.
In such case, the state of Israel would have the perfectly moral and internationally recognized right to act against agression from the other side.
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So you knew that stage 1 of the maps was not correct but you didn't mention it? That is a distortion of the facts isn't it.
Do you also came to the conclusion that map stage 1 gives a totally wrong impression of the actual amount of Palestinians versus Jews living there at that moment.
When you look at the map above it gives you the impression that Palestine is largely Palestinian with only a small part Jewish. That map was used by the UN. But if you look at the total population of Palestine we find the following (from the Supplement to the Survey of Palestine, June 1947 by the UN)
Total : 1,845,560
Moselms : 1,076,780
Jews : 608,230
Christians : 145,060
Others : 15,490
Would you have believed if I had told you that on map stage 1 the Jewish population totals 1/3rd? Let alone more than half the muslim population?
The famous German excuse was "ich habe es nicht gewusst" (I did not know it). Propably this would have been more accurate : I didn't want to know. But that's where the comparison stops. There are a lot of Israeli groups who fight for Palestinian justice, B'Tselem is one of them. Unfortunately we don't see such a group within the Palestinian society to denounce Palestinian violations.
What I find disturbing though is that senojekips likes your reply although he had worked with that organisations so he must have known that your last statement is incorrect. Or is he going to say "I don't want to know"?