So why do people hate Israel?

VDKMS said:
If I'm not mistaken the SA-6 was very dangerous in the beginning of the war. Israel developed special tactics to evade them but with not much succes. They then send a special task force to "take" one from Egypt, analysed it and build countermeasures. The SAM problem was solved.
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From what I remember; the IDF army was able to destroy the majority of the air defense when they reached the Suez and crossed the channel, btw isn't the SA-6 a low altitude SAM? Mostly fitted on vehicles such as the BRDM
 
VDKMS said:
The usual rhetoric without prove and only wrong assumptions, again with photo's (not clips this time) without any explanation. Those guys could be criminals, peaceful protesters or religious fanatics attacking Palestinians.
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Yeah, I thought you'd say something really stupid like that. Photos and personal accounts are not proof enough. And of course with you living in an International news vacuum you have never heard about these things.

So based on that, I guess you say the same about the Holocaust?
 
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Everyone is commenting on Israel's military power but if a country like Poland got 11 billion a year from the U.S. and given nuclear weapons then Poland would have a pretty good army as well. Its all the funding Israel gets that makes them decent.
 
VDKMS said:
end 2004:
687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel`s birth. Only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948 - a statistic which puts the dogfight victory ratio between Israel and its Arab neighbors at a whopping 30:1.
18 enemy planes were shot down in dogfights in the 1948 War of Independence. A single Israeli plane may have been shot down in a dogfight over the Galilee, but the exact circumstances of its demise were never established in certainty.
Seven enemy planes were shot down in the course of the Sinai Campaign, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.
In the Six Day War, 60 enemy planes and 12 IAF planes were shot down.
The War of Attrition saw 111 enemy planes and four Israeli planes shot down.
277 enemy planes were shot down in the Yom Kippur War - accounting for over a third of the IAF`s total kills since 1948. Of the planes lost by the IAF in the war, only five were shot down in dogfights.
88 enemy planes were shot down in the Peace for Galilee Campaign. Not one Israeli plane was shot down in a dogfight.
126 enemy planes were shot down in dogfights in the years between the wars - most of them in the 70`s.
The IAF lost only two planes in dogfights between the wars, in 1959 and in 1964. The stories of the IAF aircraft`s first kills are here by presented to you.

Israeli airforce kills
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Yes I agree, but they have never come up against (shall we call it for arguments sake) a first world military. With all due respect, I wouldn't consider the majority of Arab air Forces 1st World. I wonder how good they would be up against US Air Force or RAF crewed fighters.

Ghostrider said:
From what I remember; the IDF army was able to destroy the majority of the air defense when they reached the Suez and crossed the channel, btw isn't the SA-6 a low altitude SAM? Mostly fitted on vehicles such as the BRDM
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I am totally out of touch now Ghost, I have no idea. Sorry mate.
 
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Der Alte said:
Britt, Perhaps this page can give an answer.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htcbtsp/articles/20120320.aspx
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Very interesting link Opa. Thank you.
But it still begs the question, could the Israeli military stand up against a first world military? I'm wondering how the Israeli produced armour such as the Merkava would stand up to British Challenger 2 and the US M1 Abrams.

It does astonish me that so many western governments cut back in vital training. I was very surprised that the US cut back on it's top gun and red flag training, Thankfully they are getting the funding again.
 
BritinAfrica said:
Very interesting link Opa. Thank you.
But it still begs the question, could the Israeli military stand up against a first world military? I'm wondering how the Israeli produced armour such as the Merkava would stand up to British Challenger 2 and the US M1 Abrams.

It does astonish me that so many western governments cut back in vital training. I was very surprised that the US cut back on it's top gun and red flag training, Thankfully they are getting the funding again.
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The merkava is considered to be among the best MBTs in the world. It's trophy active protection system

The Institute for Defense Analyses analyzed 15 active protection systems, including Trophy and Quick Kill, and found Trophy to be the top system. In March 2006, Pentagon testers at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren tested Trophy. An official involved with the tests told NBC that Trophy “worked in every case. The only anomaly was that in one test, the Trophy round hit the RPG’s tail instead of its head. But according to our test criteria, the system was 30 for 30.” (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18356061/)

pretty scary tank to go up against if it was armed with trophy. the next lebanon war will look a lot different
 
BritinAfrica said:
Yes I agree, but they have never come up against (shall we call it for arguments sake) a first world military. With all due respect, I wouldn't consider the majority of Arab air Forces 1st World. I wonder how good they would be up against US Air Force or RAF crewed fighters.
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It will be up to the planes I think, because the quality of the pilots and the tactics are about the same.
 
VDKMS said:
It will be up to the planes I think, because the quality of the pilots and the tactics are about the same.
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There is another factor to consider if IDF AF, RAF, and USAF met like this. How much time do the Israelis have in the air? Israel is a small country so I assume they are doing their training some where else, a guess would be in the US. I remember from the Cold War, the Austrian and the Swiss Air Forces were in Sweden, due to the consequences if they by accident entered other countries air space. Israel has kind of sort of the similar situation, with hostile countries around them
 
benaakatz said:
The merkava is considered to be among the best MBTs in the world. It's trophy active protection system

The Institute for Defense Analyses analyzed 15 active protection systems, including Trophy and Quick Kill, and found Trophy to be the top system. In March 2006, Pentagon testers at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren tested Trophy. An official involved with the tests told NBC that Trophy “worked in every case. The only anomaly was that in one test, the Trophy round hit the RPG’s tail instead of its head. But according to our test criteria, the system was 30 for 30.” (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18356061/)

pretty scary tank to go up against if it was armed with trophy. the next lebanon war will look a lot different
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I'm not a tanker by any stretch of the imagination, and you wouldn't get me in tank for all the tea in China. However, from what I have heard and read, the Merkava because of its size is only suited for desert conditions. It could never be used in an Urban environment for example where both the Challenger 2 and M1 Abrams have been deployed with some measure of success.

Ghostrider said:
There is another factor to consider if IDF AF, RAF, and USAF met like this. How much time do the Israelis have in the air? Israel is a small country so I assume they are doing their training some where else, a guess would be in the US. I remember from the Cold War, the Austrian and the Swiss Air Forces were in Sweden, due to the consequences if they by accident entered other countries air space. Israel has kind of sort of the similar situation, with hostile countries around them
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I know RAF aircrew train a hell of a lot in Canada and the USA.
 
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Ghostrider said:
There is another factor to consider if IDF AF, RAF, and USAF met like this. How much time do the Israelis have in the air? Israel is a small country so I assume they are doing their training some where else, a guess would be in the US. I remember from the Cold War, the Austrian and the Swiss Air Forces were in Sweden, due to the consequences if they by accident entered other countries air space. Israel has kind of sort of the similar situation, with hostile countries around them
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I know RAF aircrew train a hell of a lot in Canada and the USA.
 
BritinAfrica said:
I know RAF aircrew train a hell of a lot in Canada and the USA.
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Yes, this is very theoretical, but if RAF was not welcome to Canada and the US anymore. Perhaps not a huge problem for the RAF, the Israelis on the other hand, must drag their axxes over to Nevada or Arizona to practice and they must bring their stuff with them. There are practical problems connected with this solution. Perhaps the IDF AF cannot practice enough, due to the cost and to get there, much easier if you can solve it back home.
 
Ghostrider said:
Yes, this is very theoretical, but if RAF was not welcome to Canada and the US anymore. Perhaps not a huge problem for the RAF, the Israelis on the other hand, must drag their axxes over to Nevada or Arizona to practice and they must bring their stuff with them. There are practical problems connected with this solution. Perhaps the IDF AF cannot practice enough, due to the cost and to get there, much easier if you can solve it back home.
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I remember when I was stationed at a Lightning station in 1970, when aircraft were scrambled for real, they took off on reheat like a Saturn 5, there were a lot of complaints from civi's. :lol:
 
BritinAfrica said:
I remember when I was stationed at a Lightning station in 1970, when aircraft were scrambled for real, they took off on reheat like a Saturn 5, there were a lot of complaints from civi's. :lol:
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haha, do we really care if they complain? I lived close to an air base once, in the beginning I was a bit irritated, but after a while I didn't even noticed them. If we are going back to if the IDF meet a well-trained military and the MBTs, I like the concept of the Merkava, when it can take infantry as well. I doubt the Trophy system will be so good as they claim it is. It might work toward RPGs and similar systems, when the projectile is quite slow. The Trophy system will never be able to protect the MBT or the APC from a Sabot, the speed of the Sabot is to great and from the detection of the incoming projectile to impact is to short. Electronics can react fast, but there is always a delay between the detection and the countermeasure. I leave that, Egypt has the Abrams, I believe, how good they are to use it? I do not know, but something tells me; if we under estimate some one, that might come back and bite us in rear end.
 
Ghostrider said:
haha, do we really care if they complain? I lived close to an air base once, in the beginning I was a bit irritated, but after a while I didn't even noticed them. If we are going back to if the IDF meet a well-trained military and the MBTs, I like the concept of the Merkava, when it can take infantry as well. I doubt the Trophy system will be so good as they claim it is. It might work toward RPGs and similar systems, when the projectile is quite slow. The Trophy system will never be able to protect the MBT or the APC from a Sabot, the speed of the Sabot is to great and from the detection of the incoming projectile to impact is to short. Electronics can react fast, but there is always a delay between the detection and the countermeasure. I leave that, Egypt has the Abrams, I believe, how good they are to use it? I do not know, but something tells me; if we under estimate some one, that might come back and bite us in rear end.
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As I said, I was never a tanker, I have never even sat inside one, nor do I want to, the Merkava looks a stunning piece of kit, but how will it perform against Challenger2 and the M1 Abrams? I have no idea.

You are absolutely correct, under estimate your enemy and it WILL come and bite you in the arse sooner or later.
 
The one who controls the air has the power to destroy the tanks. Whether it is a Challenger, Merkava or Abrams.

I do not want to be in a tank where the enemy controls the sky.
 
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