I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
To fight and defend your opinions are great, I salute all members of this thread for it. Even if some of us here disagree, can we leave the name calling and respect others opinions?
So why do people hate Israel?
RayManKiller3
Active member
And we call ourselves the civilised world lol
If you mean doomed to repeat mistakes over and over, then I agree. I won't say that we will kill ourselves off yet though. I believe once we hit space (colonization), the use of nukes will be a very real and imminent threat, even moreso than it is now. The only reason no one has used it is because humanity will probably die off.
To solidify my argument again in this debate, my conditions are as follows:
1. Palastinians must stop violence against Israel, and if violence continues, then let the Palestinians who really want peace denounce it.
2. Israel must exist, not debatable. We can not correct something that happened 70+ years ago by doing the same thing that caused the problem, therefore Israel's legality is irrelevant to me.
3. Palestine must be demilitarized. Because Palestine will be demilitiarized, Israel can not attack it.
As for my thoughts on whether this is religion or legal based:
This fight is mainly done by religion. The motivation may have some legal rights in favor of whichever, but it is largely religion based. Because most of the fighters are recruited with religion as its base, I do not deem this to be fight for land itself (as in just the land, not the symbol of the land).
You can use the Crusades as an example. Many people joined the Crusades with other thoughts in mind other than religion, but it was religion that allowed it to be possible. Because religion was the banner, it was a known as a religious war, not a self-interest one.
Here is my main concern:
I do not believe and have no reason to believe if Palestine were to get there way that terrorism will suddenly cease.
senojekips
Active member
You just summed up your morality and honesty far better than I ever could there, in that one sentence.
Idiots like yourself are the cause of the problem, you are too spineless and morally bankrupt to resist that which you know to be wrong, willing to sacrifice truth and morality for your own temporary peace of mind. You think you can broker peace at the end of a rifle barrel, imagine where we would be had people like you had your way with Adolph Hitler. "The greater Germany must exist, not debatable" We can't correct what he has done. The legality of his actions is irrelevant".
I seem to remember in 1939 some of your countrymen not wanting to get involved against Nazism either, funny how people got a sudden change of morality after Pearl Harbour, and it was their @rse was suddenly on the hot plate. That's what people like you need, a fire under your @rse every now and then, just to make you see reason.
Try supporting the 9/11 tragedy and see how respected your opinions are? Respect is great,... but it has absolutely no value if your opinions are not worthy of it.
Just remember, if the Zionists had some respect, none of this would ever have happened. Pushing people off their own land and murdering those who resist is hardly respectful.
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Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
Sometimes the applications of child like emotions to adult issues can be catastrophic to finding a real resolution.
Peace was achieved in this instance at the end of a rifle barrel, by the destruciton of Germany and the use of atomic weapons on Japan.
Followed by a Gridlock on Eastern Europe and the wave of brush wars caused by the Cold War, Which Shows, Peace does NOT constitute freedom by any means.
What human being would want to wish the horrible effects of war upon their communities and nation if they could help it? Many Americans did not want our forces in Iraq, and yes Pearl Harbor was a tragic awakening, but what you are calling for and supporting in the form of a hot plate, is an act of war or terror against the United States or other another Western Nation.
If you openly stated that in front of The Paliament building, or National Mall, or even in front of the Kremlin, that for peace to be achieved in Palestine you must ignite a hot plate to sway people to your cause in this part of the world along the lines of Pearl Harbor or 9/11...
You'd be thrown into jail for conspiring to kill that nation's citizens... And no matter where you would do that the result would be the same,
This is not how problems are solved, and this will only lead to more voilence for no reason, this is exactly how world powers would be dragged into a war in Middle East region. Exactly how my fellow citizens may be thrown into a snowballing conflict there leading to grave consequences. I can't think of any more stronger attachment for concern here.
Depends of what side the wire you are on, standing in Times Sqaure most certianly, but kneeling at prayer in one of the many places througout the world rife with anti American emotion, then yes, you may find agreeance on supporting 9/11.
Repect, and opinions are all human ideas and notions, as are emotions of anger, resentment , greed and deception, these human characteristics are largely responsible of how our civilization has evovled and is still evolving today. With little regard of consequences and little attention paid towards the future.
If your Zionists where removed, then there would be a vacum, with so many die hards out there, who are simply using the Palestinian struggle for their own banner to accomplish their own goals, it is almost a certainty that they fill such a vacum, and impose the exact same circumstances on the real losers here, the Palestian civilians.
For as in the case of human affairs, it all boils down to this.
Jackboots Vs. Jackasses, and we all have to pick aside.
Lastly, I am not attacking, I am just simply stating, I have respect for your stern stance and refuse to condem you, all I ask in return is the same.
Thanks,
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@ senojekips
I think you owe some posters here an apology. You call them spineless, morally bankrupt, liars, stupid and more. You do not respect their opinion but you do want to enforce yours upon them.
Those posters write down their opinion based on facts while yours is based on fabricated "facts" or only parts of facts, clips with no verification whatsoever.
You also say that you previously disproved lies. That's not possible. Facts are what they are. The truth.
You also said you answered several questions a number of times. That's right, but they were always the wrong answers.
You change words people say to make it suits you.
You accuse a population of stealing the land from others and you want them to go back to Europe, even if they are born in Israel. But you yourself live on land that was stolen from others, yet you find that alright. If you really want the Jews out of Israel then you must pack your bags too. Jews were living their from in the beginning, what cannot be set of the population you belong to. In my opinion, both populations can stay because they are both legitimate there according to the laws of that time.
Now, before you are going to sum up all the UN resolutions against Israel you must know that those resolutions (by the General Assembly) are recommendations (thats a fact!) and that all binding resolutions of the Security Counsil were fulfilled what cannot be said from some other countries.
You also compare the "evil Zionists" to Nazi Germany allthough there are more facts that Arabs were closely working with that regime. So if you compare Nazi Germany with Israel you are ill informed.
You also have no clue whatsoever about the cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians. It is not because you don't like it or ignore it that it doesn't exists.
We also know what happens when a fact is overwhelming. You ignore or ridicule it.
I think you owe some posters here an apology. You call them spineless, morally bankrupt, liars, stupid and more. You do not respect their opinion but you do want to enforce yours upon them.
Those posters write down their opinion based on facts while yours is based on fabricated "facts" or only parts of facts, clips with no verification whatsoever.
You also say that you previously disproved lies. That's not possible. Facts are what they are. The truth.
You also said you answered several questions a number of times. That's right, but they were always the wrong answers.
You change words people say to make it suits you.
You accuse a population of stealing the land from others and you want them to go back to Europe, even if they are born in Israel. But you yourself live on land that was stolen from others, yet you find that alright. If you really want the Jews out of Israel then you must pack your bags too. Jews were living their from in the beginning, what cannot be set of the population you belong to. In my opinion, both populations can stay because they are both legitimate there according to the laws of that time.
Now, before you are going to sum up all the UN resolutions against Israel you must know that those resolutions (by the General Assembly) are recommendations (thats a fact!) and that all binding resolutions of the Security Counsil were fulfilled what cannot be said from some other countries.
You also compare the "evil Zionists" to Nazi Germany allthough there are more facts that Arabs were closely working with that regime. So if you compare Nazi Germany with Israel you are ill informed.
You also have no clue whatsoever about the cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians. It is not because you don't like it or ignore it that it doesn't exists.
We also know what happens when a fact is overwhelming. You ignore or ridicule it.
YuriBierazo
Active member
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10JMVKuJ3Sw"]Israel targets Palestinian solar panels in bid for West Bank dominance - YouTube[/ame]
Watch the video and you'll realize how evil Israel really is. They don't give a **** about Arabs and pull this BS all the time.
Watch the video and you'll realize how evil Israel really is. They don't give a **** about Arabs and pull this BS all the time.
This is only partly true. Here comes the FACTS.
1) The area is part of area C of the West Bank. Areas A and B (Palestinian jurisdiction) and C (Israeli jurisdiction). This is part of the 1995 Interim Agreement,18 signed and witnessed by the U.S., the EU, Egypt, Jordan, Russia, and Norway (Oslo Accords).
2) They are not yet destroyed. A solar plant in Hebron paid by the Spanish government was also threatened with demolition orders. The Spanish helped save the solar panels from destruction.
3) Israeli authorities are threatening to demolish six of the 16 projects. This means ten are valid.
4) Elad Orian, a physicist at Comet-ME, told the Associated Press that the group didn’t ask for permits, feeling it would have been futile because Israel considers the communities illegal. He believes demolition is still months away, and hopes political pressure by Germany, which gave more than 400,000 euros ($520,000), will save the projects.
Do your homework before posting something.
RayManKiller3
Active member
Your comparing this to Germany? Are you forgetting that would be so if Germany haven't unconditionally surrendered?
As for morality, I spoke of it to you before. What is legal and illegal is not always moral or immoral. Morality is subjective anyways, so I won't take what you said as an insult.
Even if you disliked my comment, insulting me for it isn't the correct way to go about it. I have not insulted you despite our vast difference in opinions.
I believe Israel is legal as I believe those that created Israel did things legally until the Arabs started targeting them.
senojekips
Active member
Errr,... yeah, OK So it's alright to support one of the worlds most detested regimes, who are actively participating in the disenfranchisement, beating, harassment and gratuitous murder of the people who's land they are occupying, but you feel I should apologise to these supporters for telling them the truth about themselves?
From your posts, I'd say that you've never had an original thought in your life. I say these things, just as I would to supporters of the Nazi regime in Germany. (or anywhere else for that matter). The truth will be told, if you don't like it, get a brain and a bit of backbone and stand up for what is right. Instead of your own selfish interests.
You can't publicly support a pariah state, (remember all the UN resolutions) and expect your opinions to be respected. Not that anyone with a brain needs the UN to make them see what is going on.
Of course,... their treatment of the Palestinians is the closest thing we have to the Nazis treatment of the pre-war Jews.
The one thing that the Zionists really learned from the holocaust was how to emulate the oppression of another people. Not only do they treat the Palestinians like animals, they are quite willing to treat their own people the same way. Just as the Nazis treated Germans who were sympathetic to the Jewish people.
All they need are the Deaths Head badges and SS runes and you could be looking straight back to the 1930s in Germany.
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I have often wondered how well the Israeli's would do if they came up against a proper and well trained army and air force.
I remember a dog fight between Israeli Mirages (or whatever they call them) and Jordanian Hawker Hunters. The Jordanian's had been trained by the RAF and despite faster aircraft the Israeli's couldn't get on their six O'clock to shoot them down. A Hunter was lost when one of the pilots lost his nerve and made a break for home, the superior speed of the Mirage enabled the Israeli to shoot him down. The dog fight broke off when all aircraft began getting low on fuel.
I remember a dog fight between Israeli Mirages (or whatever they call them) and Jordanian Hawker Hunters. The Jordanian's had been trained by the RAF and despite faster aircraft the Israeli's couldn't get on their six O'clock to shoot them down. A Hunter was lost when one of the pilots lost his nerve and made a break for home, the superior speed of the Mirage enabled the Israeli to shoot him down. The dog fight broke off when all aircraft began getting low on fuel.
You are describing there all the opponent regimes of Israel in the region, where Israel is the ONLY democracy of note. Take a look around, if you want pariah states. The people of Israel are so 'oppressed', that Israel has to build walls to keep people OUT, not in. The Nazis in this scenario are those who wish to destroy Israel, as you do, who absolutely dread a peaceful settlement. Nothing but the destruction of the Israel suits your book, and such has been the case with Nazis since Hussaini throughout the 20th c., when they have been the closest allies of Hitler with offers to wipe out the world's Jews on Hitler's behalf.
For 60 years Israel has been obliged to defend itself and has done so very well - nowhere has Army action been so careful of civilians etc. and nowhere has a nation handed back land won in defensive combat as Israel has done. As for land, great swathes where purchased by The Jewish agency in the early 20th c., and of a great many which were sold individually are now regretted and reclaimed, a denial of sale. Remember that Israel was not then the country you see before you now; it was a dusty corner of the Ottoman empire.
Israel suffers from a very intensive and successful propaganda programme, by the Muslims, to make way for their all-conquering Caliphate, including Europe, their great Ummah. Far from having original thought - you represent simply a mouthpiece for their agenda, constantly repeating the same ol', same ol'. If you say it often enough, it becomes some sort of twisted history.
You expose yourself when you dare to compare Israel , and any who take a different stance from yours, to pre-war Nazis, and when you never, ever allow for two sides of the question, always a dead give-away.
Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians and their guest performers is known as survival, simple as that, and they do not need your permission .
As far as you are concerned, any opinion that does not match yours is a lie; anyone voicing an opinion that does not match yours is an idiot or worse ; if Israel were to ask what they are doing wrong, your response IMHO would be - 'you are Jews, and you are breathing.'
Kindly spare me your 'of Jewish descent' toffee - they say the same for Hitler sometimes.
I give you the solution - the Palestinians stop firing- the war stops. Simples! Jaw-Jaw beats War-War.
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The Israelis shot down, if my memory serves me right, 5 to 6 Soviet piloted state of the art Migs in the war of attrition with egypt between 1967 to 1970.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
If I remember correctly; the IDF Air Force was quite successful during the Lebanon operation in 1982, when they met the Syrian Air Force. Nevertheless, how would they be today if they met a well trained military, whoever that might be? The war in 2006 at Hezbollah? It is tricky to find reliable sources to figure out the casualties and the cost for the Hezbollah, and they are perhaps not comparable with a state owned military, which is well trained, however, Hezbollah had strong support from Iran and Syria, but not any air force, though
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I meant a properly trained military. If I remember correctly the Egyptians out ran their anti air cover.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
Yes, they did, if we are talking about the Yom Kippur (1973) The Egyptians had an air defense shield (SA-2 Guideline???) surrounding the Suez Channel, if I remember correctly; the Egyptians thought the other end of the line was successful (the Syrians) when they were not.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Thanks Ghost, I guess I got my dates and wars mixed up. I thought it was before the Yom Kippur War
Errr,... yeah, OK So it's alright to support one of the worlds most detested regimes, who are actively participating in the disenfranchisement, beating, harassment and gratuitous murder of the people who's land they are occupying, but you feel I should apologise to these supporters for telling them the truth about themselves?
From your posts, I'd say that you've never had an original thought in your life. I say these things, just as I would to supporters of the Nazi regime in Germany. (or anywhere else for that matter). The truth will be told, if you don't like it, get a brain and a bit of backbone and stand up for what is right. Instead of your own selfish interests.
You can't publicly support a pariah state, (remember all the UN resolutions) and expect your opinions to be respected. Not that anyone with a brain needs the UN to make them see what is going on.
Of course,... their treatment of the Palestinians is the closest thing we have to the Nazis treatment of the pre-war Jews.
The one thing that the Zionists really learned from the holocaust was how to emulate the oppression of another people. Not only do they treat the Palestinians like animals, they are quite willing to treat their own people the same way. Just as the Nazis treated Germans who were sympathetic to the Jewish people.
All they need are the Deaths Head badges and SS runes and you could be looking straight back to the 1930s in Germany.
The usual rhetoric without prove and only wrong assumptions, again with photo's (not clips this time) without any explanation. Those guys could be criminals, peaceful protesters or religious fanatics attacking Palestinians.
I3BrigPvSk
The Viking
You are welcome; prior 1973, during the six days war (1967), Egypt lost the whole Sinai Peninsula and they were beaten badly by the IDF AF, so they tried to prevent a similar situation when they attempted to re-capture the Sinai Peninsula. However, the war can perhaps be viewed as a success for Egypt, even if they got the whole 3rd Army surrounded. The Camp David gave them the Peninsula back. Perhaps the Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt had never occurred without the Yom Kippur war, but that is only speculations. Israel has done a lot of strange things in the past, the Entebbe, when they destroyed Iraq's nuclear facility, and the air raid toward PLO in Tunis.
end 2004:
687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel`s birth. Only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948 - a statistic which puts the dogfight victory ratio between Israel and its Arab neighbors at a whopping 30:1.
18 enemy planes were shot down in dogfights in the 1948 War of Independence. A single Israeli plane may have been shot down in a dogfight over the Galilee, but the exact circumstances of its demise were never established in certainty.
Seven enemy planes were shot down in the course of the Sinai Campaign, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.
In the Six Day War, 60 enemy planes and 12 IAF planes were shot down.
The War of Attrition saw 111 enemy planes and four Israeli planes shot down.
277 enemy planes were shot down in the Yom Kippur War - accounting for over a third of the IAF`s total kills since 1948. Of the planes lost by the IAF in the war, only five were shot down in dogfights.
88 enemy planes were shot down in the Peace for Galilee Campaign. Not one Israeli plane was shot down in a dogfight.
126 enemy planes were shot down in dogfights in the years between the wars - most of them in the 70`s.
The IAF lost only two planes in dogfights between the wars, in 1959 and in 1964. The stories of the IAF aircraft`s first kills are here by presented to you.
Israeli airforce kills
If I'm not mistaken the SA-6 was very dangerous in the beginning of the war. Israel developed special tactics to evade them but with not much succes. They then send a special task force to "take" one from Egypt, analysed it and build countermeasures. The SAM problem was solved.