Separation of Church and State

maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.

Crime rate has increased exponentially, so have divorce rates and violence. Pornography and sexual perversion have become mainstream. Homosexuals are looked upon more favorably than Christians are. Would America not be better of if it incorporated Judeo-Christian ethics and morals into its laws?

A Chinese scientist said (not a direct quote but close enough) "In China we are free to question Darwin but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwin." Interesting, no?
 
behemoth79 said:
maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.
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I think you are over looking that fact that a large proportion of the most immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion.

Crime rate has increased exponentially, so have divorce rates and violence. Pornography and sexual perversion have become mainstream. Homosexuals are looked upon more favorably than Christians are. Would America not be better of if it incorporated Judeo-Christian ethics and morals into its laws?
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In my opinion the alleged degredation of morality has come from a failure in the maintenence of discipline nothing else, you already have incorporated Judeo-Christian ethics and morals into your laws just take a look at the comparisson between the "10 commandments" and most nations laws. The big problem is not in a governments lack of desire to impliment these rules but in its desire to enforce these rules to there fullest extent.

A Chinese scientist said (not a direct quote but close enough) "In China we are free to question Darwin but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwin." Interesting, no?
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I disagree entirely people are more than free to discuss Darwins theories as well as creationism what is wrong is the desire to ignore Darwinism in favour of creationism and vice versa as both have a place in the education system.
 
I've said more than my piece and I encourage all not say more than theirs.

Remember that the impact of one person's internet forum writing on a human's psyche is virtually nill. Most people have very strong heald convictions on the nature of religion and its role in gov't. There is nothing that can be said by me or anyone else to convince myself or any other forum member to change their opinions on such a limited impact medium.

This is especially true in the current world society we live in where it seems fundamentalism has taken strong root in people's psyche, from Christian fundamentalism to Islamic fundamintalism to atheist fundamentalism.

I could throw out facts figures and argumentation at Gladius till my fingers fell off and he could do the same to me and neither of us would be able to budge the other. Not because of some post-modernist philosophy like we both hold equally valid truth but rather because the psychological persuasive impact of this medium is not strong enough to overcome other, more intense, levels of learning and understanding.

This is basically a call for American low-church christians and european atheists to not slice eachother's throats over a pre-determined stalemate, because that is exactly where this seems like it's going.
 
In a way I kinda agree with some of your sentiments here.

As far the European Atheist go, I believe European society and democracy as a whole won't last more than fifty to a hundred years, they will fall to either assimilation or armed invasion, largely due to said beliefs.
America on the other hand has a good chance of going past this if it sticks to its Christian roots and doesn't go the way of Europe. This is why I am for this even from a purely logical standpoint.

MontyB said:
I think you are over looking that fact that a large proportion of the most immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion.
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This is partially true, but then again you lack historical perspective.

Without the foundation of Christianity, which is the basis for all our laws and government we wouldn't have Western Civilization and our democracy as we have today.

Not mention at least twice in history (maybe more) Christianity saved Western Civilization from total anihilation.

Also the 2 biggest mass murderers in world history were Atheist, Mao (20 million killed), and Stalin (20 to 40 million killed). So historically speaking Atheism is just as bad if not worse. Not to mention this happen fairly recently in the 20th century.

Beside this dicussion is NOT about religion as a whole (I could care less about that), it is about acknowledging the basic Christian beliefs that founding fathers of the US and basicly our modern democracy stood by, and used to form what is in place today.


I disagree entirely people are more than free to discuss Darwins theories as well as creationism what is wrong is the desire to ignore Darwinism in favour of creationism and vice versa as both have a place in the education system.
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Are you even living in reality? When was the last time creationism was taught in the public schools. When the theory of evolution (which by the way is still only a theory) is always taught in sciences clases, when you can't even teach creationism in most public shcools, its illegal.

behemoth79 said:
maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.
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I agree, people are completely misunderstading this and making comparisons to Iran. Not even close.
 
the foundation for America's government was layed out thousands of years before the western hemisphere was even considered
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This is kind of offtopic, but I have to say that there are only two hemispheres: North and south.

Here in Europe religion and politics have separed science 1789, great idea! :D
 
MontyB said:
behemoth79 said:
maybe some of you are misunderstanding me, especially Whipsering Death. I am in no way saying that there should be a state sponsered religion. reading my last post would reveal that. however, i am saying that the separation has gone too far. In the past 30 years America has become a morally degenerate society.
Click to expand...

I think you are over looking that fact that a large proportion of the most immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion.
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i agree 100% that some of the most "immoral and degenerate acts in recorded history have been carried out in the name of religion." While it is true that they were carried out in the name of religion, they were not carried out according to the doctrine of said religion.

The crusades were carried in the name of Christianity. However, no where in the Bible does it say to burn and pillage a city and rape and kill its nonbelieving inhabitants. Rather it instructs to love nonbelievers and show them kindness and lead them back to God through love not violence.

Many terrorists are claiming their acts are in the name of Islam. I have not read the Koran but i highly doubt that a religion so close to Christianity would condone such acts.
 
behemoth79 said:
A Chinese scientist said (not a direct quote but close enough) "In China we are free to question Darwin but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwin." Interesting, no?
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People question Darwin all the time. Though I think they're being extremely silly.
Sorry Chinese scientist guy. You can't question the government, though you can question Darwin, but in the US, you can question both. Sure you'd look like a complete idiot if you said Darwin was wrong but you could do it and the worst you'd get is people laughing at you.
 
behemoth79 said:
no where in the Bible does it say to burn and pillage a city and rape and kill its nonbelieving inhabitants. Rather it instructs to love nonbelievers and show them kindness and lead them back to God through love not violence.
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You might want to try reading the bible before you say that.

Commit Genocide

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Kill Non-Believers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

There are many more, read the thing and you'll find em' yourself.
 
all of the examples above either list national laws or events that took place, not the teachings of Jesus Christ.
 
Irregardless, those are the commands of Yahweh who with jesus and the holy spirit is one god, one being.

Of course you probobly are trying to motion to the two-covenants theory of interperating the bible which states, essentially, that the old testament is merely a backstory for Jesus Christ's laws. Oddly enough, though, the people who ignore the teachings about genocide under this theory are very angry when the equally discounted Ten Commandments, which should be ignored along with those genocide lines, where removed from the courthouse. Then, of course, you are left with the beatitudes, or Jesus' teachings. The main problem with this loveley scenario is that the Christianity of Jesus is far to hard a path for most people to accept, (give away all your money, fast in the desert etc.) and since you are speaking to me on a computer I assume you do not follow that lifestyle.

So we are left with mainstream Christianity which essentially seeks to ignore the parts of the bible they don't like (such as those ugly ugly genocide things, let me just turn my blind eye... oh there, gone!) and believe what they want to believe (god damned gays, let's send em' all to hell at shotgun point!)

Of course, a Christian ruler could just as easily interpret the bible to say that Jesus is the ideal citizen and that Yahweh is the ideal ruler. The ideal citizen should give up all he has for yahweh (in this instance the ruler) and the ruler (me) should be, as yahweh's holy representative on earth, able to bash babies against walls like in Jehrico.

But that is wrong! That's not my religion! Yes, and that's why we have a very firm line between church&state.
 
Whispering Death said:
staurofilakes said:
This is kind of offtopic, but I have to say that there are only two hemispheres: North and south.
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No, there are east and west hemispheres also seperated by the Prime Meridian
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I know this is VERY offtopic:

The Western Hemisphere contains The Americas and nearby islands. The terminology is meant to serve as an analogy with the natural geographic division of the world into a Northern and Southern Hemisphere. However, it is more a geopolitical rather than a geographical term, and refers mostly to the governments and nations that are located in the region; there is no physically-based boundary on the planet that actually separates the Western Hemisphere from the rest of the world, such as the equator which is defined by the rotation of the earth and which thus separates the Northern and Southern hemispheres. (Some suggest that the eastern and western hemispheres are divided by the Prime Meridian and the 180° line of Longitude. This would mean that parts of Europe, Africa, and Asia belong in the Western Hemisphere.) Neither is there a way to determine which of two hemispheres (wherever one draws the line between them) is the "western" one, since "western" is a relative direction. The area commonly called Western Hemisphere is western only relative to an observer in Europe or Africa, and so the term is considered eurocentric.
 
People would be alot better off if they lived under only one rule - The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Take that as a guiding principle in how to live your life and you won't have to worry about the seperation of church and state or whether or not your religious beliefs are being considered.

Unfortunately, it will never happen universally. Somebody will always want something for nothing and is willing to take advantage of others to get it. Still, it doesn't mean you can't try to be that way yourself.
 
Whispering Death said:
Irregardless, those are the commands of Yahweh who with jesus and the holy spirit is one god, one being.

Of course you probobly are trying to motion to the two-covenants theory of interperating the bible which states, essentially, that the old testament is merely a backstory for Jesus Christ's laws. Oddly enough, though, the people who ignore the teachings about genocide under this theory are very angry when the equally discounted Ten Commandments, which should be ignored along with those genocide lines, where removed from the courthouse. Then, of course, you are left with the beatitudes, or Jesus' teachings. The main problem with this loveley scenario is that the Christianity of Jesus is far to hard a path for most people to accept, (give away all your money, fast in the desert etc.) and since you are speaking to me on a computer I assume you do not follow that lifestyle.

So we are left with mainstream Christianity which essentially seeks to ignore the parts of the bible they don't like (such as those ugly ugly genocide things, let me just turn my blind eye... oh there, gone!) and believe what they want to believe (god damned gays, let's send em' all to h**l at shotgun point!)

Of course, a Christian ruler could just as easily interpret the bible to say that Jesus is the ideal citizen and that Yahweh is the ideal ruler. The ideal citizen should give up all he has for yahweh (in this instance the ruler) and the ruler (me) should be, as yahweh's holy representative on earth, able to bash babies against walls like in Jehrico.

But that is wrong! That's not my religion! Yes, and that's why we have a very firm line between church&state.
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Where do you get this stuff. This is even more out there than saying all the founding fathers were deists. This is a totally wrong concept of Christainity. Why do you think Christians are not killing gays or bashing babies like you say, there must be a reason for that. Here it is in a nutshell:

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Most of all the Old Testament was realized through Christ, and Christian must strive to live towards Christ truth and grace.

Thats why it wrong for Christains today to massacre populations, shoot gays with shotguns, and bash babbies. Most if not all Christians will be against anyone who tries to do this.

As far as the 10 commandments go, it is still relevant today because the Old Testament are spiritual methaphores for New Testament faith and struggles, ect.

Not only that, those commandments are some of the very few laws that come from the old testament that Jesus and also the Apostles mention for Christians to follow. The rest you don't have to follow because of Christ grace.

So NO, Christians arent ignoring one part to follow another. Far from it.

All parts are kept in mind. In fact the very examples you use is a very good example why the US should not forget its Christian roots.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.(Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
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As brutal as you think those commands were, it was necesary for the survival of the newly formed nation of Isralites during ancient times.

Because of the Biblical laws (not just the ones mentioned above) the Isralites became strong as a nation, and were at the height of power during king Solomon's reign. They were the wealthiest and one of the most powerful regional powers and possibly on the verge of empire within two or three more kings had they stayed the course. However towards the end of Solomon's reign some of those commands listed above were starting to be violated, some by Solomon himself.

They started to worship foreign idols, chief among them was Molech, which required people to sacrifice children into fire. The worship of these gods changed their individual attitudes and thus their whole national character. This set off a whole chain of events where the original Bibical laws were no longer followed. The laws which kept them strong as a people were soon disregarded. This resulted in a downhill slide for them. Within one or two generations they were a divided people with two kingdoms, until later they were eventually conquered by foriegn invader, and they all became slaves.

Of the two kingdoms Judah and Israel, the smaller one Judah lasted considerable longer only because of a series of kings who did away with idol worship and restored the Biblical laws which made them strong again for a time, until again another series of kings did away with it again and re-introduced idol worship, which weakened them again until eventual conquest.

As far as a New Testament metaphore, the Christain foundation of the founding fathers which brought us here has kept us strong. They knew the same lesson from the Old Testament. If we forget it then it will lead to our fall, if you want proof all you have to do is look at Europe, they wont last more than 50 to a 100 years or even less.
 
Whispering Death said:
behemoth79 said:
no where in the Bible does it say to burn and pillage a city and rape and kill its nonbelieving inhabitants. Rather it instructs to love nonbelievers and show them kindness and lead them back to God through love not violence.
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You might want to try reading the bible before you say that.

Commit Genocide

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
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you might want to read the whole story of the fall of Jericho and not take out the part that fits your argument and leave out the rest. This was not an example of God giving a law to all of Israel to kill all non belivers. This was one example of God punishing Jericho. Jericho had fallen from God's way and was punished for doing so. Trumpets did not bring down the walls of Jericho, God did.

" 2 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. " (Joshua 6:2 NIV)

Jericho sinned and was handed over to Israel. And to make sure Jericho would never exist again,Joshua swore:
" 26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: "Cursed before the LORD is the man who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho:
"At the cost of his firstborn son
will he lay its foundations;
at the cost of his youngest
will he set up its gates."

27 So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land.
(Joshua 6:26-27 NIV)
 
Gladius, Israel's power had much more to do with the geopolitics of their time instead of god. That is, of course, unless you think America's power was is because god likes us, and Britain's power in the 1800s was because god liked them best, and Prussia's power in the 1700s was because they where God's favorite and France's power in the 1600s was because god really liked them at that time and China's power before the 1600s was because god was so pleased with buddhism. And if god loved Israel enough to let her have almost 3 kings before she began to crumble, imagine how much god loved Persia and how extrordinarily much god loved Alexander the Great and his sexual trists with his young hopolites.

Israel came to its peak because of a power vaccum that they where able to fill. It only lasted for 2 kings and then the real powers of the time reconstituted themselves in that theater and proceded to bludgen the hell out of her. Actually in the 2nd civil war, Israel invaded Judea to force Judea to fight the Asyrians but Jerusalem asked the Asyrians to save them and that's how Israel was conquered by the Asyrians. That would essentially have been like the South getting Brittain to conquer the North during our civil war.

When you strip away the religion, Israel was a real :cen: state. It only came to power because the big powers where preocupied and then broke in 1/2 and proceeded to get the crap kicked out of her by everyone and their dog over the next few hundred years. Hardly the kind of nation we'd want to model ourselves after.
 
It isn't about who God likes or doesn't like.

Christian principles foster, honesty, hard work, and family values. All 3 necesary for building of a strong nation.

Look at Europe for example their liberal beliefs doesn't foster family values, thus they have a shrinking population, how is this shrinking population going to support a larger and larger old population, and a continuing economy in the future, it cant.

The reason Israel broke in half like I said is because they had forgeten those laws which made them strong in the first place. Had they remained united there would be no Judah to ask Assyria to help conquer Israel, instead they would probably been able to hold off Assyria, if not conquer them themselves, had they remained united and strong like they were supposed to.

The real reason Israel was a :cen: up state, like I said before, is because they had forgoten their Bilbical laws along with its values. Before that, when those laws were in place they were a strong nation.

You keep giving examples trying to illustrate why Israel was so messed up, when the very examples you give are the same reasons not to forget the Christian principles this nation was founded under. Israel forgot those Biblical laws thats why they got the crap beat out of them.

Besides, those Christian foundations are what took us here today, Atheism and Liberalism did not make this country. So far the only example Atheism has given us is the failed state of the Soviet Union.
 
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