Replacing the M-14, M-16, M-4, XM-8 et al

ONERING said:
First off, M16 isn't exactly "American Made" As you people know, it was first made in belgium. Even the beretta pistol is Italian. I've never seen a REAL ORIGINAL AMERICAN MADE assault rifle, but whats a REAL AMERICAN rifle is the M14.

Oh yah the m14, no better piece of crap to have. Mean recoil, one-hit kill.
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Sources?

Want to go down the list of US designed and manufactured weapons?
AR series
1911
1919
The infamous BAZOOKA
Ma Deuce

Want to continue?

Some calibres may be from foreign countries, but I can assure you that the M16 and AR series was designed by an American in America.

Why do people always pick on the US? They must be jealous of something...
 
ONERING said:
First off, M16 isn't exactly "American Made" As you people know, it was first made in belgium. Even the beretta pistol is Italian. I've never seen a REAL ORIGINAL AMERICAN MADE assault rifle, but whats a REAL AMERICAN rifle is the M14.

Oh yah the m14, no better piece of crap to have. Mean recoil, one-hit kill.
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What? The AR-15/M16 is All American. The M14 is the worlds best magazine fed, semi-auto rifle.

The AR-15 is the AirForce desigantion. Eugene Stoner and Armalite Arms Corp teamed up to create the AR-15 and CAR-15, a new family of 5.56mm assault rifles and carbines. After Stoners failed attempts with his Stoner Weapons Systems, he built the plans for the AR-15 and showed them to Armalite. Armalite made a deal with Stoner, they would produce his weapon but under their name. Armalite showed plans for the AR-15 (M16) to the US Army and the Army disliked the weapon, the AirForce was interested in the weapon, they where in need of a small caliber rifle for Secuirty Forces guarding airfeilds and after a quick test trial they accepted the rifle, buying 15,000. Keeping the original desination, AR-15. After hearing what the AirForce did the US Army rethought the idea and decided to test the weapon in theater, complaints of the weapons jamming and rusting too fast came from the front lines. Armalite decided to redo the weapon, this time croming the barrel and bolt and adding a foward assist, and remaking the bad powder which caused misfires, rounds would swell on humid days and a soldier would go to chamber around and it would stick, as he went to dislodge the round with the bolt, it would rip the catridge bottom off. Armalite also slowed the Rate Of Fire, because the weapon would empty a whole 15 round magizine before the first shell casing hit the ground. After much trial and error Aramlite and the US Army had a deal. The DoD order that all US Forces fighting in Vietnam be armed with the M16, but Armalite couldn't fill that order in two years, so the Army had Armalite Arms Corp sign a contract permiting other gun manufacters to produce the M16. The Army's biggest supplier of the M16 is Colt Firearms Division. The Private Sector adopted the US AirForce designation, now calling all variants and styles of the M16 and M4 the AR-15 or CAR-15.
 
As I believe someone already pointed out, the shape of the bullet matters almost as much as its mass when dealing with penetration. A smaller bullet with a smaller nose will apply more pressure at the point of impact then a rounder, larger round. So, in a way the 5.56mm round doesn't have the "knock down" power of the 7.62 round but can be more likely to be a kill shit. Look at it as being stabbed with a knife versus hit in the chest with a sledge hammer if you prefer.

That is my understanding of it anyways, pretty much the same reason as why a dull knife stab wound hurts more than a wound from a sharper knife.

Anybody want to take a pool on how long before Americans start referring to weapon rounds as its diameter in mm as opposed to caliber? I take 2028.
 
Well all the weapons are very good. the XM-8 is basically light and compact with 3 varients. But it sucks because the gun isn't long enough to use the bayonet to touch the enemy at a distance. The M-16 is long and strong so use can use it like a spear with the bayonet on.
 
Patel said:
Well all the weapons are very good. the XM-8 is basically light and compact with 3 varients. But it sucks because the gun isn't long enough to use the bayonet to touch the enemy at a distance. The M-16 is long and strong so use can use it like a spear with the bayonet on.
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The compactness is a virtue now that soldiers are having to fight from within HMMVWs. The M-16 is a weapon designed for an antiquated form of warfare.
 
Whispering Death said:
Patel said:
Well all the weapons are very good. the XM-8 is basically light and compact with 3 varients. But it sucks because the gun isn't long enough to use the bayonet to touch the enemy at a distance. The M-16 is long and strong so use can use it like a spear with the bayonet on.
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The compactness is a virtue now that soldiers are having to fight from within HMMVWs. The M-16 is a weapon designed for an antiquated form of warfare.
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That is why most soldiers are now armed with M4's.
 
I am sick and tired of hearing the Korean War stories of the M1 Carbine not taking out the enemy when they wore winter clothing. That is a crock of bull. Though the .30 Carbine cartridge isn't as powerful as the .30-06 Springfield. It's still plenty powerful to kill a human. The M1 carbine was a very popualr weapon system during WWII and Korea. Also it was used alot in Vietnam by SF and ARVN. But it was used in the m2 configeration. Which is nothing more than a full auto M1 carbine. The M1 carbine is till popular for police and military forces in the Dominican Republic and for the Police Forces in Israel last time I checked. The Israeli Police just developed a new rifle chambered in .30 carbine and it even uses the M1 carbine magazines still. It's called the Magal.

And as for the 7.62X25 cartridge being weak. That's also bull. It will defeat Level IIIA armour. Which can stop your hard hitting .45 ACP.

Also, I don't hate the bull-pup configeration for a rifle. But the changing of the magazines seem to wierd. I think the reason why the soldiers of Europe and Australia can adapt so quickly to that system is because they've never owned and fired guns.

The best militay rifle hands down is the AR-15 series rifle. Last time I heard, British SAS special forces use the M16, Australia dropped the Styer AUg and went to the M4, and most of our allies use it. Oh, the H&K XM-8 and G-36 are pieces of crap. I shoot both, and I'll galdly keep my M4 carbine. Also, the US Army dropped the XM-8 from it's next generation rifle project. The rifle just oculdn't take a licking and keep on ticking. But if there is one Weapon system that i would love to own. It's the FN-P90 in 5.7X28mm. It's a great PDW. It's even better than my Colt AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/magal/Magal.html
THat's the site with some info on the Israeli Mgagal.

http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp
That's my rifle. THank God that I live in America and not in New York, Chicago, LA, most of Europe, Australia, or Washington DC.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm
FN-P90 info
 
Australia dropped the Styer AUg and went to the M4
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???

No we didn't, nor do we plan to. The F88 Styer is still our primary weapon. And if your reffering to our special forces then thats still wrong, they use M4's as well as a large variety of weapons but generally don't prefer them, their weapon choice varies from what they're doing and where they are.

I've never minded the F88, i find reloading fast and comfortable.
The only thing that bugs me is that the rifle seems bigger then it needs to be if you know what i mean, they should make a smaller one.
 
5.56X45mm said:
THank God that I live in America and not in New York, Chicago, LA, most of Europe, Australia, or Washington DC.
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why would you feel the need to say that? if you feel the need to own something like that...good for you, but your misconceptions about the firearms laws of other countries are glaring.


if i wanted to own a MSSA (military style semi automatic) rifle like that i could, but i would have to go through a stricter firearms licence test.

as it stand now i'll thank god i live in a country where i dont feel the need to own a weapon such as that, with no other purpose than putting holes in other people...i'll stick with my lee enfield.
 
But I guess I have been proven wrong on the F88. I thought that you guys dropped it. My bad. And the Styer AUG is a cool looking rifle. I just doun't find it easy to use and reload. As a PDW, it would be a fine rifle. But as a battle rifle. I like the M4 better. My biggest seller is the M4 Style rifle. I've sold some Styer AUGs, CETMEs, H&K-91s, and FN FALs. But the reason why the M$ sells more is because it has no limit on how it can be modified. You can turn one into a Long Range shooter, CQC Weapon, PDW, Anti-Armour Rifle, and even a small game hunting rifle. The parts out on the market are sick. You can have it chambered in 7.62X39mm, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .22LR, 9mm Parabellum, .45ACP, .40S&W, .50 BMG, and .50 Beowulf just to name a few. I just don't see anything like that possible with the Styer Aug, AK series, FN FAL, CEMTE/G3, or the L85A1/A2. But if there is one rifle that I do love.

It's my Savage made Lee Enfield No 4 MKI in .303 British. That's one fine bolt action. Almost better than my Mausers.
 
They made it more compatable with the current ideas of combat rifles. They made it a "flat top" rifle. It has a removeable crayy handle/ sight system and also piccatiny rails on the side and bottom of the rifle. It looks spaceage, but I'll still take the AR-15 system of rifles. But for those police departments and national defense forces that use the Steyr AUG rifle. Upgrade to that. It works and it's better.
 
magal, tavor, .30 carbine...

I wonder who was first with the full handguard bullpup design---must be the best because everyone is copying it...the HEZI m1 conversion still hasn't come out, but I'd rather have the magal, which is available in scandinavia (and probably some other european countries) in a sporter version...it just needs a longer barrel like the m1 to extract properly....From the link, you can clearly see the Magal is an AK variant...a .30 carbine AK so to say, just as it's predecessors the micro Galil and the Galil.
Reports on the Tavor vs CAR are variable, but the basic tavor design looks way better...I wonder why we can't get the Israel weapons in Sporter versions here in the US? (Clinton's 96 bill banning import?)
.30 Carbine = .357 magnum, so's no joke at short range... those Korean reports were probably guys shooting at .223 or .308 ranges. That combloc 7.62x25 (90gr./1600fps) would have to be AP steel core to penetrate IIIA and even then I doubt it... :rambo:

http://www.advancedcombat.com/civilian/sm1.html
http://www.gun-world.net/old/isreal/imi/magal/magal.htm
http://www.gun-world.net/old/isreal/imi/tavor/SFT.htm
http://www.gun-world.net/old/isreal/imi/tavor/index.htm

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/tavor/Tavor.html
 
5.56X45mm said:
British SAS special forces use the M16
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THey just bought a bunch of Canadian Diemaco C8s for special forces to use such as the SAS. Of course it is a copy of the M16, thats been slightly modified and can do full automatic. Its no surprise that they been using the M16 before now however since its only in the past couple of years that they fixed the L85A2 so now it has the reliability its always missed before. Heck I'm happy with any British gun that fires. Some reports have come out saying its more reliable than the M4.

Britain wanted to adopt to the ar15 back in the early 50s but the US forced all nato countries to go to a 7.62mm round and pretty much ended that.

The M4 main problem is its range. The loss of barrel range has really effected its ability so in the jungle and so on it be a good rifle, though long distance shooting in the desert and cities is really being effected. Its one of the advantages that a bullpup does have is that its alot shorter than a traditional rifle.

The XM8 is a waste of money. Its a G36 which has had more money spent on it to make it less reliable. I doubt it be adopted and seems more a saving of grace from the failed OICW programme.
 
Limeyfellow said:
5.56X45mm said:
British SAS special forces use the M16
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THey just bought a bunch of Canadian Diemaco C8s for special forces to use such as the SAS. Of course it is a copy of the M16, thats been slightly modified and can do full automatic. Its no surprise that they been using the M16 before now however since its only in the past couple of years that they fixed the L85A2 so now it has the reliability its always missed before. Heck I'm happy with any British gun that fires. Some reports have come out saying its more reliable than the M4.

Britain wanted to adopt to the ar15 back in the early 50s but the US forced all nato countries to go to a 7.62mm round and pretty much ended that.

The M4 main problem is its range. The loss of barrel range has really effected its ability so in the jungle and so on it be a good rifle, though long distance shooting in the desert and cities is really being effected. Its one of the advantages that a bullpup does have is that its alot shorter than a traditional rifle.

The XM8 is a waste of money. Its a G36 which has had more money spent on it to make it less reliable. I doubt it be adopted and seems more a saving of grace from the failed OICW programme.
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Stoner made the AR-15 in the late 50's, and was in U.S. service from 1964-1968.
 
So what now chaps since the XM-8 failed to pass the Timex challenge?

Is it really possible to have ONE weapon that is fit for all missions? Looking at the array of weapons most of the modern militaries keep on hand for different missions I am disinclined to say it is possible.

What say ye?
 
Well, since we were considering buying German guns anyways, I'd say the HK416 makes the most sense. There would be no retraining, since it's externally identical to the pre-existing AR-15 series weapons, it solves almost all of the problems with the guns, and we'd only have to buy upper receivers since they can snap right on to Colt's components.

If the adoption of a new round is a prerequisite, we could so the same thing with the Barrett M468. Does the same thing as the HK416 and snaps onto Colt components, but it's chambered for 6.8 SPC and as a side benefit it's made in the USA. Again, no retraining required as it's externally very similar to the pre-existing AR-15 series weapons.

Ideally, I'd like to see F2000s chambered for 6.5mm Grendel, but that'd probably be expensive, if absolutely badass.
 
I think the reason why the soldiers of Europe and Australia can adapt so quickly to that system is because they've never owned and fired guns.
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Europe, I dunno. But Australia, mate, there are a lot of shooters here. We may have tougher gun laws here. But that just stops any old nut from walking into a Big-W and walking out with a firearm. Many of us, especially soldiers, are prior shooters.

I spent a greater portion of my life prior to the army living in the country, and then working as a boundry rider on a station. All there is to do is go roo shooting.
 
5.56 or any others

Have any of you guys had any experiance with the French FAMAS Clarion.
Its the standard issue of the French Military.

Thoughts?
 
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