Leave it to Chirac...

Big_Z said:
I wonder who the first country Germany or France is gona call for support if WW3 breaks out? America, The sad/noble part about it is we would fight with them in a heartbeat.Im not sure the same could be said for them.

Themselves and the rest of europe, I bet we'd be on another front.
 
Doppleganger said:
I'm not gonna pretend that the US, UK or anyone else are holier than thou because they're not, far from it. But at least the US and UK back each other up.

How about during Vietnam where we betrayed the French and let women and children get slaughtered by savage communist at the battle of Dien Bien Phu? I bet you’re too young to remember that, so I will tell you about it. The NVA brought up mortars and heavy artillery and shelled the French city which had civilians in it. The city was completely surrounded by the communist forces. Now, the French flew in paratroopers and fought valiantly, but they were still vastly outnumbered and outgunned so they pleaded for our help. We even wrote up a plan to use tactical nuclear weapons, but we could not get Great Britain’s support so we didn’t follow through. We still had bombers and transports just a few miles away that had more than enough space to airlift the women and children off the battlefield. Heck, the commies even pulled back for a while, presumably to let us evacuate the civilians; some of the NVA went AWOL to get f—ked at a brothel some miles away. We had the opportunity to save French civilians, these innocent noncombatants, but we didn’t. While this was happening, Lyndon B. Johnson said, and I quote: “**** the frogs.” The savage commies overwhelmed the French army and went in raped, pillaged, and murdered throughout the city.

EDIT: Damn. It was LBJ, not FDR... :oops:
I dont know what I was thinking.

EDIT 2: Sorry about the foul language.
 
Pretty good point. Hadn't thought of it. Still, might as well call the kettle black. France is not a strong ally at best.

Indochina is quite the moral dilema. They fought the Japanese in WW2, yet were handed right back to the French rule that they didn't want at all. But a good ally ought to have lent a hand and at least helped get them out of Dien Bien Fu. Anybody know the background on why Johnston was so hostile toward the French?
 
Yes it's very odd that we didn't help. Perhaps he thought the French could take care of themselves? What's the worst a bunch of uneducated pajama boys can do?

How severely we would be punished for not intervening then....

We did give the French equipment and some finances though.
 
France and Germany should establish a New Europe I think.

Europe led by Germany and France can compete with USA as superpower.

dragonpic3.jpg
 
ravensword227 said:
Doppleganger said:
I'm not gonna pretend that the US, UK or anyone else are holier than thou because they're not, far from it. But at least the US and UK back each other up.

How about during Vietnam where we betrayed the French and let women and children get slaughtered by savage communist at the battle of Dien Bien Phu? I bet you’re too young to remember that, so I will tell you about it. The NVA brought up mortars and heavy artillery and shelled the French city which had civilians in it. The city was completely surrounded by the communist forces. Now, the French flew in paratroopers and fought valiantly, but they were still vastly outnumbered and outgunned so they pleaded for our help. We even wrote up a plan to use tactical nuclear weapons, but we could not get Great Britain’s support so we didn’t follow through. We still had bombers and transports just a few miles away that had more than enough space to airlift the women and children off the battlefield. Heck, the commies even pulled back for a while, presumably to let us evacuate the civilians; some of the NVA went AWOL to get f—ked at a brothel some miles away. We had the opportunity to save French civilians, these innocent noncombatants, but we didn’t. While this was happening, Lyndon B. Johnson said, and I quote: “f**k the frogs.” The savage commies overwhelmed the French army and went in raped, pillaged, and murdered throughout the city.

EDIT: Damn. It was LBJ, not FDR... :oops:
I dont know what I was thinking.

EDIT 2: Sorry about the foul language.

Look you're right and I never said that the US and UK were saints. But the fact of the matter is that generally there's an air of cooperation between the UK and US and the French generally do their own thing. There's plenty of things that the US has done that its citizens cannot be proud of and you can include the UK in that too. I for one am not proud of much of my nation's past. Anyway the point I originally made was that Chirac is in it for personal glory and I stand by that.

PS bringing my age into a debate shouldn't be considered. I don't see it as a factor and you're assuming I'm a certain age. You may be wrong.

BTW FlyingFrog there's no chance of just Germany and France being able to compete with the US alone. Germany has lost much of it's industrial and economic bite since unification and they'd need at least the UK alongside to have any chance.
 
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/dragonpic3.jpg

That is exactly what will happen if China becomes a superpower. Countries immediately around this "dragon" will be the first on the chopping block. Generally speaking, European countries have taken advantage of China in one way or another, and they know they need America to protect them. And despite how much they dislike America on the outside, they know we have been there for them in the past. I know Germany and France will pull through for us, it just may take some time (like the time it took us to enter WW2).
 
Please don't really talk like France and Europe were all the same thing.

My country is not anything like France, nor is Poland. It often happens that when the left comes to power in a European country it soon distances itself from the US. When the right is in power, it rather moves closer (Spain makes the case).

The point is French parties act all the same way and nothing much makes any difference.
That's why they are not allies in the proper sense.
 
Yup, France and Germany can't make a "new europe"

They uh... don't control it all, unless Frog was talking about conquest or hardcore political meddling. :shock:
 
Well, it is sad to see EU is a big mess.
Every EU member got a veto right, that makes things really nasty to happen, I don't know why with all the 25 members, they can't introduce a "democratic" voting system: majority wins the decision.

I have no confidence with EU at all, it is really a big mess there.
I think Germany and France should leave EU, and make up an Alliance of Germany and France, some other countries may join if they like, like Holland, Belgium, Austria, etc.
 
Europe is a bit of a mess.
First of all, it's hard to have a strong economy in the long run with such a socialistic economic model. Unfortunately that just simply is the case because the policies are harmful for local enterprises.
Basically someone's going to have to stand up and say that this model is preventing Europe from reaching its full potential. I mean, the Europeans have a high standard of education so certainly a good portion, if they read the text, would understand.

Here's a little example...
In France, the unemployment level is pretty high. 9.7% means almost 1 out of 10 people doesn't have work. My French professor explained this is probably because since the laws make it so hard for companies to fire people, they simply don't want to hire unless they absolutely have to. That law was made to "protect" workers from getting fired but it really backfired into putting prospective workers at a disadvantage.

Not to mention, France as a whole has this thing about the thorn in their allies' side and being the weakest link during a crisis situation (usually war). If you add France to any kind of organization, you may have some added resources, but chances are all they'll do is slow you down. Seriously, this is why the UK does not want to be a full member of the EU.
 
Most of you said is true.
But note: France is very good in almost all high tech and industry area's, including military stuff.

And for UK it is indeed better not to get into the mess of EU.
 
Yes I know France has advanced weaponary, but on the other hand, so does the USA, UK and not to mention a variety of high tech things are available from various European countires other than France. Meaning you can get whatever France has at an equal or better level without the hassle of putting up with them.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Meaning you can get whatever France has at an equal or better level without the hassle of putting up with them.

First I doubt many European countries got the same good stuff as France has. Second, I don't understand what "without the hassle of putting up with them" means.

Anyway.
 
FlyingFrog said:
First I doubt many European countries got the same good stuff as France has.
Very true. France has military and non-military self production in all areas. They may not have the very best gear, but they stay close tech-wise in both fields.

Second, I don't understand what "without the hassle of putting up with them" means.

Anyway.
In other words, not worrying about having a supposed agreement or understanding and having the French do something completely against it. So long as it pisses off lots of other nations, France will be just as friendly and can be with China or whoever else. The parallel of North Korea selling arms to Taiwan is pretty close to right.
 
What I'm saying is, technologywise, Sweden, Germany, the Netherlands, UK and the USA are pretty advanced too. I think that really is good enough.

As with hassle with putting up with the French, I mean their endless squabbling. Meaning you could safely ignore them at most levels. Yeah they have advanced tech but diplomatically a nightmare to work with.
 
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