Israel rightfully own the West Bank .

[moshe]

The issue is that your people (Jews) came into Palestine and kicked Palestinians out of their homes to live in them ... Panzer you never heard of WW1? tsk tsk tsk. The British defeated the non Arab Ottoman Turkish empire. Honestly you goyim need to read something more than newspapers! Turkish land law still applies today! Under the Turkish land laws the State owned all the lands. If a person wanted to acquire farm properties or residential housing that person had to lease the land from the Ottoman government based upon a 99 year lease.

The Arabs who share cropped on these leased properties did not consider themselves anything other than Sunni Arabs. Only after the Ottoman defeat and the British and French carving up the spoils of that empire did the British and French par down 'Greater Syria: which included all of Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and the Sinai desert ... into their 'spheres of influence'!!!!! France took Syria and Lebanon and Britain took Israel Jordan Syria, (the had control over Egypt under Disraeli in the 1880s), and Iraq!!!! Now Britain signed to agreements one with the future Hashemite dynasty of jordan and the other with Chaim Weizmann who successfully negotiated the Balfour Treaty.

The League of Nations awarded England a mandate to establish and fulfill these 2 binding treaty obligations. In the early 1920s the League of Nations designated these territories which Britain agreed to establish 2 states [2 states NOT 3 states] as """ Palestine""".

 

[moshe]

Shadow gray ... read a book and stop flattering yourself that new papers make you an expert. In the Presidential election between Jefferson and Adams, Jefferson held that giving aid to foreign governments violated the Constitution. [Ron Paul holds this same viewpoint. Jefferson beat Adams in that election]. The US gives a 4:1 ratio of aid to Arab nations than Israel. The US government operates its Pax American empire through this means!!! Governments who accept these loans [the money never leaves American soil!] have to agree to the establishment of US military bases station on the soil of those foreign nations! The establishment of a US military base in Saudi Arabia provoked the 9/11 attack!!! I live in Be'er Sheva and there a huge US Base close by. Had you listened to Netanyahu's recent speech before Congress he openly stated that he preferred the closure of US military bases in Israel. This means that the Prime Minister was telling Obozo to shove his military aid up where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[moshe]

senojekips your into Arab propaganda. Jordan nationalized Samaria!!! The Jordanians do NOT call themselves Palestinians. Black September brutally proved this truth.

 

[senojekips]

senojekips your into Arab propaganda. Jordan nationalized Samaria!!! The Jordanians do NOT call themselves Palestinians. Black September brutally proved this truth.

Please explain what that has to do with European Jews "right" to expel the owners of this land and beat, harass and murder those who resist.

Such a pity my "Arab propaganda" is recognised in International law, and you have nothing other than 2000 year old religious mumbo jumbo to support your claims. :lol:

 

[moshe]

Please explain what that has to do with European Jews "right" to expel the owners of this land and beat, harass and murder those who resist.

This do as i say but not as i do crap just doesn't work. Britain fought a war with the Ottoman Turks where it specifically expelled the owners of this land and beat, harassed and murder those who resist.

 

[senojekips]

This do as i say but not as i do crap just doesn't work. Britain fought a war with the Ottoman Turks where it specifically expelled the owners of this land and beat, harassed and murder those who resist.

Nobody said that, did they?

Have you a single credible source showing that the Brits physically beat and harrassed any Turks in Palestine. They certainly fought the Turkish army there, as part of WWI, but I've never read anywhere that they harrassed Turkish citizens unlike the Israelis who have followed a policy of denial, disenfranchisement, beatings, theft and gratuitous murder for over 60 years now?

I think you are talking out of your hat, grasping at straws, and you still haven't answered the question as to what your initial statement has to do with the present situation in Palestine.

Admit it, you are trying to derail the debate with totally unrelated issues, unfortunately for you, there have been far better exponents of this line of action here before, you will need a far better argument than this, and you still haven't provided a single verifiable point to support your argument that Israel "owns" the West Bank.

 

[RayManKiller3]

I disagree with the whole concept of "this was done in a time when it colonization was acceptable" so therefore Israel is in the wrong, but not any other nation that took part in colonization.

You do realize that people who do something that common sense suggest against still go to jail with made-up laws specifically for their wrongdoings. Meaning, if you did a something logic tells you is bad, they can make a law for it (after they catch you for it) and still bust you despite there having been no law before it. You can (note: can) still go to jail despite no law previously having been placed against the offense.

With your logic in mind, all those people should have been let go correct? With your logic we should tax Native Americans despite what we done to them in the past, simply because it was acceptable (or close to it, because genocide still occured during those times). Though because of your logic, the Native Americans shouldn't resist this move because it was acceptable then.

Too many hole in your logic, it excuses actions one did before because it was normal.

Whatever, I will just say this; I think foriegn nations should stay out of it and let the Palestinians and Israelis negotiate it.

As for Grey_Shadow. Instead of commenting on how American policy is towards Israel, why not fix the problems yourself with your people (if you are in Israel and an Israeli citizen). We are defending Israel mainly because of past events. Israel is one of the only stable countries in the Middle-East that is surrounded by enemies. Many U.S citizens and politicians don't like what Israel is doing, but we feel it might be a lesser evil than what could be right now. I would rather have an ally than an enemy, even if that ally fights like my enemies to a certain extent.. That is my logical take on it.

War is war and life is life, niether is pretty, we can only try to lessen the damage on it. Saying things like "Israeli soldiers are murderes" is kinda silly, and should then be used against everyone. technically, anyone who killed is a murderer (including soldiers and those who killed to protect their own lives or the lives of others), but many won't think of it like that when it comes to enemy combatants or certain circumstances (but truthfully it is what it is). The thing I think that seperates Israel from Palestine, is that the Palestinians AIM for civiillians and when they succeed, they are considered heroes or looked up upon.

Like I said in the other thread, until Palestinians as a whole denounce actions like these and stop holding anti-U.S sentiments then I think the U.S (with its interests)should stay away from supporting Palestine with strong direct action against Israel. Most U.S citizens at this very moment is not going to support bringing up an anti-U.S state while at the same time risking a deterrence in ally relations, safety, and influence.

With that said I am glad Obama took the stance he did. Israel is here and there is nothing the U.N can do about it (as long as the U.S is the power it is today).

 

[MontyB]

Ok where to start:

I disagree with the whole concept of "this was done in a time when it colonization was acceptable" so therefore Israel is in the wrong, but not any other nation that took part in colonization.

I think you are confused here, the argument is that this was done after the world abandoned colonisation and in fact had produced several international conventions to stop it.

You do realize that people who do something that common sense suggest against still go to jail with made-up laws specifically for their wrongdoings. Meaning, if you did a something logic tells you is bad, they can make a law for it (after they catch you for it) and still bust you despite there having been no law before it. You can (note: can) still go to jail despite no law previously having been placed against the offense.

Indeed however the Palestinian problem is that they do not have access to the international criminal courts and therefore can not bring criminal charges hence the current push for statehood or at least my interpretation of drive to statehood, but I guarantee that should you give them access to the ICC there wont an senior Israeli politician or soldier that isn't on a watch list within weeks.

With your logic in mind, all those people should have been let go correct? With your logic we should tax Native Americans despite what we done to them in the past, simply because it was acceptable (or close to it, because genocide still occured during those times). Though because of your logic, the Native Americans shouldn't resist this move because it was acceptable then.

Well hate to break it to you but Native Americans should be paying tax if they are working within the USA unless some other agreement has been negotiated with the government.

One thing that interests me is that you seem to be arguing that what you colonists did to Native Americans was bad things such as stripping them of their land, moving them to worth less chunks of land, killing those that resisted, making and breaking treaties based on the value of the land they were on (such as the discovery of gold) yet you are over looking that Israel is still doing this today.

Like I said in the other thread, until Palestinians as a whole denounce actions like these and stop holding anti-U.S sentiments then I think the U.S (with its interests)should stay away from supporting Palestine with strong direct action against Israel. Most U.S citizens at this very moment is not going to support bringing up an anti-U.S state while at the same time risking a deterrence in ally relations, safety, and influence.

If I was supplying the guy that had killed your family, kicked them off their land and shipped you and the remaining family to some s**thole refugee camp with bugger all food, water and medical supplies would you like me?

With that said I am glad Obama took the stance he did. Israel is here and there is nothing the U.N can do about it (as long as the U.S is the power it is today).

The question then becomes how much longer will the US have power to exert, my guess is that should China call in its loans the answer will be about 3.5 minutes before you join the ranks of the 3rd World so I am not sure you have a great case.

 

[RayManKiller3]

I think you are confused here, the argument is that this was done after the world abandoned colonisation and in fact had produced several international conventions to stop it.

Correct, that is what I am saying. With the logic Seno is saying, those that have done those crime BEFORE the international conventions stopped it are excused simply because it was "acceptable". I might have made that writing confusing.

Indeed however the Palestinian problem is that they do not have access to the international criminal courts and therefore can not bring criminal charges hence the current push for statehood or at least my interpretation of drive to statehood, but I guarantee that should you give them access to the ICC there wont an senior Israeli politician or soldier that isn't on a watch list within weeks.

See I agree that there should be a Palestinian state, but how can they expect support from a nation or nations that they attack. You can't gain support from majority of your enemies by making them more hostile with acts such as chanting anti-west statements and applauding terrorist actions.

Even if U.S did/do veto the Palestinian statehood bid, it is still said that it will not pass. Why should U.S alone be responsible for supporting the Israelis when other countries do as well?

I just disagree with the statehood bid because I believe Palestinians are just trying to make a state without negotiating with Israel (I am all for charging any person(s) for any war crime actions so long as its a fair trial). This is also why the U.S have said they will veto it and is also why it is believed it won't pass even if the U.S did support it.

Well hate to break it to you but Native Americans should be paying tax if they are working within the USA unless some other agreement has been negotiated with the government.

Try telling that to the Native Americans and see how they will react. The U.S government did it out of pity and responsibility for the crimes it has committed in the past, but if the government did not, what then for the Natives? That would be the excuse I was talking about.

One thing that interests me is that you seem to be arguing that what you colonists did to Native Americans was bad things such as stripping them of their land, moving them to worth less chunks of land, killing those that resisted, making and breaking treaties based on the value of the land they were on (such as the discovery of gold) yet you are over looking that Israel is still doing this today.

No, I am not ignoring Israeli actions and I do disagree with colonisation to an extent. I do not like Israel's actions, but I find what they are doing less of an evil because at least I don't see them boastful about it. I never seen Israeli's chearing in crowd when a civillian died due to a terrorist attack (or equivalent).

This is what I am saying specifically! I want the Palestinians as a whole (especially politically) to denounce any attacks like this. If they are able to do this then maybe terrorist attacks won't be supported. I will then be willing to support almost any resolution (except the abolishment of Israel) even if it means the U.N interfering or the U.S declining support for Israel if Israel refuse to negotiate fairly.

The terrorist attacks is one of the major issues keeping Palestinians from gaining enough support for a state of their own.

I don't call the land being "stolen" because from what I know, Jews have been buying up the land before they even came here. Not only that, but the British pretty much gave it to them. We can say Israel don't belong there, but to derail 5 million people (for basically no real reason except people believe it is stolen land) from their lives due to another country's mistake (Britain) is kind of being a douchebag and I won't support it. All we can do is support a 2 state solution and even that is difficult.

If I was supplying the guy that had killed your family, kicked them off their land and shipped you and the remaining family to some s**thole refugee camp with bugger all food, water and medical supplies would you like me?

If I have the same personailty that I have now while I am answering your question; no, I certainly would not like you. I however am not a vengeful person and will not cheer in the death of even my most greatest enemies especially when that enemy is an innocent bystander. This is the point of view that I want the Palestinians to take, however I know this is not any easy view to take, as people will usually lose sanity from those events.

I take a more logical standpoint on death than most of the people I know personally. I can only hope that in death there is true peace, therefore I will not hate anyone for killing anyone I know (extreme dislike I will have I am sure though). I would want justice though, but I don't believe in the death penalty as no one have the right to determine a person's life in that way.

That is my answer.

The question then becomes how much longer will the US have power to exert, my guess is that should China call in its loans the answer will be about 3.5 minutes before you join the ranks of the 3rd World so I am not sure you have a great case.

I would not say that if I were you. If China decided to do that, the U.S will take a good deal of countries down with it (economically). Depending on who is President, I do not believe U.S will stand by in an idle manner as China intentionally destroys it's economy. I am sure, U.S will consider this a threat and take action (not that I want this), but Israel will be the least of worry to anyone if something like that does happen.

 

[VDKMS]

The issue is that your people (Jews) came into Palestine and kicked Palestinians out of their homes to live in them, to this end it does not matter who acknowledged Israel, what conventions ratify its existence and no amount of lawyering on your part will change that fact.

Jews stole the property of people who already lived there and nothing changes this fact and based on this fact alone Israel has no moral right to continue in the shape it does.

Also yes this makes Israeli Jews thieves.

Post scriptum.

I never hid my hostility towards Israel, i'm not hostile because of some supposed ignorance though i'm hostile because when Jews came to Palestine and in the name of the bible and various foreign conventions started murdering locals out of their livelyhoods i decided its wrong, when the same people and their families started defending their actions like you, by lawyering instead of adressing the immorality of the issue i became an enemy of Israel, its people and all it stands for, its basically a media conscious Third Reich.

The nature of Israel is not a nature of conventions but rather basic morals, is it OK to build and maintain Israel on Arab property?

I have to admit that i dont really like Arabs for a variety of reasons mild racism among them but they're people, they had homes and lives and Jews took it all away because they could, so Moshe yes Israeli Jews are thieves, religious racists and occupants.

Of course there's a fair share of decent normal Jews who just want to live out their lives but it does not change the fact that Israel is built on stolen and occupied property and deeply rooted in religious mumbo jumbo and holocaust guilt trips both used as justifications for the theft.

Thanks for clarifying your point of view. This helps alot in the discussion. Your view is out of "moral" grounds while mine is out of "legal" grounds. The latter is easier to prove because of international laws. Israel is a legal country while the West Banks is a bit murky (Terra nullius does not apply here)
You're mostly right when you say it is not fair that the Jews kicked out the Palestinians. But then again, the Jews were kicked out of Germany and Russia.
It is also impossible to find out how may palestinians were kicked out and how many fled the conflict to come back later when the Arab armies were succesfull. Unfortunately they weren't. So many of them are still living in refugee camps. Do you find it "moral" how they are treated by their so called Arab friends? When people are kicked out and have to go to some place else aren't they both victims? And isn't it normal that when you arrive in another place and they attack you that you fight back?. Not all jews from Germany went to palestine (until 1939 : 95,000 to the United States, 60,000 to Palestine, 40,000 to Great Britain, and about 75,000 to Central and South America). Those from Russia (1880 -1928 : Australia 5,000, Canada 70,000, Europe 240,000, Palestine 45,000, South Africa 45,000, South America 111,000 and United States 1,749,000). Only in Palestine, the place where the jews originally came from, there were big problems.

PS
I'm not pro Israel and anti Arab. I consider myself more in favor of the Israelies than the Arabs. Antwerp in Belgium is a town close by where I used to live. As long as I can remember there were many jews living there. There were never problems. On the contrary , you could do good business with them (diamonds, gold). Then came the Arabs (we call them muslims). A lot of Antwerp shop owners had to close their business because of the Arab culture. Whole neighborhoods were abandoned by the Antwerp people because of the aggressiveness of the Arabs. They now even want sharia law! Unfortunately this happens in many bigger European cities. So in Europe we get more political parties who are more or less anti muslim. The Arabs never had any connection to europe while the jews have one with palestine.

 

[VDKMS]

The question then becomes how much longer will the US have power to exert, my guess is that should China call in its loans the answer will be about 3.5 minutes before you join the ranks of the 3rd World so I am not sure you have a great case.

US debt : $14.1 trillion
China owns : $1.164 trillion
8,25%. Not exactly an amount to drive the USA to the 3rd world.

 

[senojekips]

Thanks for clarifying your point of view. This helps alot in the discussion. Your view is out of "moral" grounds while mine is out of "legal" grounds. The latter is easier to prove because of international laws. Israel is a legal country while the West Banks is a bit murky (Terra nullius does not apply here)

Terra Nullius is applicable under international law and as such, applies on this earth, which planet are you talking about? Also it has been shown in earlier posts and sources quoted to demonstrate that being a "legal country" (you used the term Sovereign State at that time) has no bearing on the matter. Could you please supply a credible source for your "Legal" grounds.

You're mostly right when you say it is not fair that the Jews kicked out the Palestinians. But then again, the Jews were kicked out of Germany and Russia. And
It is also impossible to find out how may palestinians were kicked out---snip---.

You are fantasizing again aren't you?, the number of Palestinian refugees is well known and documented, see the quote below.

Descendants of Palestinian refugees under the authority of the UNRWA are, like “Nansen Passport” and “Certificate of Eligibility” holders (the documents issued those displaced by World War II) and UNHCR refugees [5] are granted the same refugee status as their parent. Based on the UNRWA definition, the number of Palestine refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950[2] to 4.7 million registered with the UN in 2010.

Do you find it "moral" how they are treated by their so called Arab friends?

How they are treated in another country is determined by that country, the main point being that this demonstrates very clearly that these countries are not their "friends". The Palestinians are illegal immigrants in these countries, just as almost all of the Israelis are in Palestine.

When people are kicked out and have to go to some place else aren't they both victims? And isn't it normal that when you arrive in another place and they attack you that you fight back?

If people arrive illegally they have no right to resist the land owners who have every right to defend their country, especially when those arriving already have active terrorist groups within the country encouraging them Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks In this case No,... they have no right to fight the land owners as they are illegal immigrants.

Not all jews from Germany went to palestine (until 1939 : 95,000 to the United States, 60,000 to Palestine, 40,000 to Great Britain, and about 75,000 to Central and South America). Those from Russia (1880 -1928 : Australia 5,000, Canada 70,000, Europe 240,000, Palestine 45,000, South Africa 45,000, South America 111,000 and United States 1,749,000). Only in Palestine, the place where the jews originally came from, there were big problems.

Because the Palestinians had indicated that the Jews were not welcome there, they already had enough trouble with Jewish terrorist groups within Palestine.

The Arabs never had any connection to europe while the jews have one with palestine.

I have "a connection" with England, but that does not give me any right to just go there and take whatever I claim is mine, murdering anyone who resists.

 

[VDKMS]

Terra Nullius is applicable under international law and as such, applies on this earth, which planet are you talking about? Also it has been shown in earlier posts and sources quoted to demonstrate that being a "legal country" (you used the term Sovereign State at that time) has no bearing on the matter. Could you please supply a credible source for your "Legal" grounds.

Terra nullius ( /ˈtɛrə nʌˈlaɪ.əs/) is a Latin expression deriving from Roman law meaning "land belonging to no one" (or "no man's land"), which is used in international law to describe territory which has never been subject to the sovereignty of any state, or over which any prior sovereign has expressly or implicitly relinquished sovereignty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius

You are fantasizing again aren't you?, the number of Palestinian refugees is well known and documented, see the quote below.

You better read again, no mention at all about how many were kicked out and how many just fled the violance (because the Arabs attacked btw). NO ONE has those exact figures.

How they are treated in another country is determined by that country, the main point being that this demonstrates very clearly that these countries are not their "friends". The Palestinians are illegal immigrants in these countries, just as almost all of the Israelis are in Palestine.

Explain to me why those palestinians are in your answer above "refugees" and now "illegal immigrants" ?

If people arrive illegally they have no right to resist the land owners who have every right to defend their country, especially when those arriving already have active terrorist groups within the country encouraging them Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks In this case No,... they have no right to fight the land owners as they are illegal immigrants.

Most of the first jews arriving in Palestine did so legally, and legally bought land. One of the first jewish settlements the Arabs attacked was Metula , the Jews founded it in 1896. The first terrorist groups in Palestine were Arab , not Jewish. The Jews began to organize and arm themselfs after the Arab attacks of 1920.

I have "a connection" with England, but that does not give me any right to just go there and take whatever I claim is mine, murdering anyone who resists.

But you can go back and buy land overthere. That's what the first Jews who came to Palestine after WWI did.

 

[moshe]

The Ottoman Empire ruled present day Syria, Israel, and Jordan for more than 450 years. What happened to all the Turkish national who had lived in these portions of the Ottoman empire? Duh they just up and left when the British took over?! The British sent them packing irregardless of their opinions on the matter.

 

[moshe]

Monty your logic stands upon pie in the sky. No such people as "Palestinians" exist. Its a propaganda myth. Prove me wrong on this premise and then we can discuss the lack of rights of Palestinians.

 

[moshe]

Senojekips: Your opinion of the arguments which i have to date presented is just that "your opinion". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

The Ottoman Turks who lived in the Middle East for over 450 years, these "natives" had no choice: it was either leave or die. If you can argue the points presented, your defense of attempting to negate me through your arrogant general over view observations ... this fools no one other than yourself.

 

[senojekips]

Senojekips: Your opinion of the arguments which i have to date presented is just that "your opinion". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitioning_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

The Ottoman Turks who lived in the Middle East for over 450 years, these "natives" had no choice: it was either leave or die. If you can argue the points presented, your defense of attempting to negate me through your arrogant general over view observations ... this fools no one other than yourself.

Well, obviously it fools you, because if you look, you will find that your quotation has absolutely no bearing on the subject of this thread. (Israel rightfully own the West Bank) As the Israelis had not occupied the West Bank in the time of the Ottoman occupation of Palestine.

 

[MontyB]

Monty your logic stands upon pie in the sky. No such people as "Palestinians" exist. Its a propaganda myth. Prove me wrong on this premise and then we can discuss the lack of rights of Palestinians.

I would suggest that your argument is deliberately misleading, but lets assume you are right what would you call people living in an area known as Palestine for well over 2000 years oh I know how about Palestinians?

But hey I am prepared to be open minded how about we call them Syrians after all the area was part of Southern Syria in antiquity now what if anything does this have with anything.

If you want to argue that Israel rightfully owns an area because of ancient history then you have to also have to accept that ancient Israel was not the original "owner" of the area either so neither Palestinians nor Israelis have a right to the area as it is Syrian.

Now as I understand it the Israelite domination of the region only spanned about 700 years from 1250BCE to 580BCE as prior to that was the Exodus which would indicate that ancient Israelites were Egyptian and after that they were marched off to Babylon so I am guessing there are Iraqi's with more claim to the region than modern Israelis.

Of course you could claim "Jews" have lived in the region for 3000 years and I wont argue with you but then so were polytheists and probably even longer so that is a weak argument, further to this other than "religion" what link is there between modern Israelis and ancient ones because I am betting there is no genetic link.

I am sorry but no matter how you bend it, twist it or ignore it modern Israelites are in my opinion (yes it is just my opinion) nothing more than European colonists.

 

[A Can of Man]

It doesn't matter whether there is a Palestinian nationality or not (and there is by the way).
Stealing people's land is wrong.
If you think it's okay, give me your address and I'll start living on your property.

 

[moshe]

(Israel rightfully own the West Bank) As the Israelis had not occupied the West Bank in the time of the Ottoman occupation of Palestine.

LOL your mixed metaphors make me laugh. What a total idiot. West Bank is a post 1967 term you newspaper Neanderthal. Following the death of king Shlomo the Davidic kingdom split into 2 kingdoms. Samaria was the Capital City of the kingdom of Israel.