Israel rightfully own the West Bank .

All these discussions brings me back to my first question . How far is one allowed to go back in time to prove he is right? - No one answered it yet.
I learned a lot about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict because of these discussions, and it is a fact that a lot of Palestinians were kicked out of their land, but it is also a fact that the jews were kicked out first some 2000 years ago. It is also a fact that there has been a Jewish state or kingdom in the past. The Palestinians never had that up until now. (It's not a real state yet, but they are coming closer to it). They were always part of another country. That does not mean they are not entitled to get one.
Another fact is that Israel exists. Whether you like it or not, Whether you find it legal or illegal. No mather what you think about it, it's there and it is listed as a souvereign state. Up until now, Palestine isn't.
Now, about the settlements. Fact is they are there and are illegal according to International law if the West Bank is considered occupied territory. Most do, some don't. Another problem is that Israel's eastern border never has been set. There's only the Green Line. So the legality of the settlements can change if the borders between Israel and the future state of Palestine are set.
 
VDKMS said:
All these discussions brings me back to my first question . How far is one allowed to go back in time to prove he is right? - No one answered it yet.
Click to expand...
If you have to go farther than 1000 years thats definitely too far and Israeli Jews would have to go nearly 1800 years back to back up the claim.
VDKMS said:
I learned a lot about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict because of these discussions, and it is a fact that a lot of Palestinians were kicked out of their land, but it is also a fact that the jews were kicked out first some 2000 years ago.
Click to expand...
You just made a disgusting suggestion, that because Romans expelled the Jews over 1800 years ago its OK for Jews to expell Palestinians, an entirely different peoples nearly two millennia later.

VDKMS said:
Another fact is that Israel exists. Whether you like it or not, Whether you find it legal or illegal. No mather what you think about it, it's there and it is listed as a souvereign state. Up until now, Palestine isn't.
Click to expand...
And the only ones who are to blame are Israeli Jews who murdered, opressed and expelled Palestinians with two express purposes, to build a state upon Palestinian property and to smother any Palestinian statehood that might oppose the jewish occupation of Palestine.

It is starkly clear that you both support and condone the terrorist methods of the Israeli state via your suggestions and the fact that you blatantly ignore facts that disprove your outrageous rants.
 
Code: 
If you have to go farther than 1000 years thats definitely too far and Israeli Jews would have to go nearly 1800 years back to back up the claim.
Who or what entitles you to decide that one can only go back 1000 years ????So, according to your view, the Pyramids are not Egyptian because they cannot prove that, they are build more than 4000 years ago.

Code: 
You just made a disgusting suggestion, that because Romans expelled the Jews over 1800 years ago its OK for Jews to expell Palestinians, an entirely different peoples nearly two millennia later.
No, what I mean is that if the Jews wouldn't have been expelled they would still be living in Palestine. And as a matter of fact , there allways have been Jewish people living in Palestine.
BTW. there were no Palestinians 1800 years ago.

Code: 
And the only ones who are to blame are Israeli Jews who murdered, opressed and expelled Palestinians with two express purposes, to build a state upon Palestinian property and to smother any Palestinian statehood that might oppose the jewish occupation of Palestine.
It is starkly clear that you both support and condone the terrorist methods of the Israeli state via your suggestions and the fact that you blatantly ignore facts that disprove your outrageous rants.
So, shooting a RPG at a schoolbus with jewish children is allowed???
Shooting unguided rockets at a civilian population is alllowed???

Code: 
you blatantly ignore facts that disprove your outrageous rants
Show me.
 
VDKMS, can you please quote normally? I'm not going to struggle with the silly sidescrollers.

So according to your logic Jews have the right to boot Palestinians because they lived in Palestine 2 milennia ago? Yes/No.
 
VDKMS said:
Who or what entitles you to decide that one can only go back 1000 years ????So, according to your view, the Pyramids are not Egyptian because they cannot prove that, they are build more than 4000 years ago.
Click to expand...
My Gt Grandparents left England in 1852 due to social pressures. They could have returned England as their home, but even if they did, unlike the Israelis they could not throw the people living in their old homes out and murder them is they resisted. I have no "Right of Return" only 160 years later.

VDKMS said:
So, shooting a RPG at a schoolbus with jewish children is allowed???
Shooting unguided rockets at a civilian population is alllowed???
Click to expand...
You should ask your question of the Jews in Palestine who have been terrorising the Palestinian people for over 100 years. Below is an record of Jewish terrorism 1937 - 1948. This list is by no means complete and it only documents from 1937 onwards.

1937, March
2 Arabs killed on Bat-Yam beach.
1937, November 14
10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday")
1938, April 12
2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa.
1938, April 17
1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa
1938, May 17
1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road.
1938, May 24
3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa.
1938, June 23
2 Arabs were killed near Tel-Aviv.
1938, June 26
7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa.
1938, June 27
1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa.
1938, June (late)
Unspecified number of Arabs killed by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Jerusalem.
1938, July 5
7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel-Aviv.
1938, July 5
3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem.
1938, July 5
1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem.
1938, July 6
18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa.
1938, July 8
4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.
1938, July 16
10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
1938, July 25
43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.
1938, August 26
24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa.
1938, February 27
33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.
1939, May 29
5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem.
1939, May 29
5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.
1939, June 2
5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.
1939, June 12
1 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing
1939, June 16
6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem.
1939, June 19
20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.
1939, June 29
13 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period.
1939, June 30
1 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem.
1939, June 30
2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta.
1939, July 3
1 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.
1939, July 4
2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem.
1939, July 20
1 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa.
1939, July 20
6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel-Aviv.
1939, July 20
3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot.
1939, August 27
2 British officers were killed by a mine in Jerusalem.
1944, September 27
Unknown number of casualties, around 150 Irgun members attacked four British police stations
1944, September 29
1 Senior British police officer of the Criminal Intelligence Department assassinated in Jerusalem.
1945, November 1
5 locomotives destroyed in Lydda station. Two staff, one soldier and one policeman killed.
1945, December 27
3 British policemen and 4 Basuto soldiers killed during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv
1946, February 22
Destroyed 14 aeroplanes at 5 RAF stations.
1946, July 22
91 people were killed at King David Hotel Bombing mostly civilians, staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
41 Palestinian Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian.
1946, October 30
2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station.
1946, October 31
Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.
1947, January 12
4 killed in bombing of British headquarters.
1947, March 1
17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion.
1947, March 12
1 British soldier killed during the attack on Schneller Camp.
1947, July 29
2 kidnapped British sergeants hanged.
1947, September 26
4 British policemen killed in Irgun bank robbery.
1947, September 29
13 killed, 53 wounded in attack on British police station.
1947, December 11
13 killed in attack on Tireh, near Haifa
1947, December 12
20 killed, 5 wounded by barrel bomb at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
6 killed, 25 wounded by bombs outside Alhambra Cinema.
1947, December 13
5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
7 killed, 10 seriously injured in attack on Yehudieh.
1947, December 16(ca)
10 killed by bomb at Noga Cinema in Jaffa.
1947, December 20
6 Arabs killed, dozens wounded by bomb at Haifa refinery, precipitating the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, which lead to the Balad al-Shaykh massacre.
1947, December 29
14 Arabs killed by bomb in Jerusalem.
1948, January 1
2 Arabs killed and 9 injured by shooting attack on cafe in Jaffa.
1948, January 5
14 Arabs killed and 19 injured by truck bomb outside the 3-storey 'Serrani', Jaffa's built Ottoman Town Hall
1948, January 7
20 Arabs killed by bomb at Jaffa Gate.
1948, February 10
7 Arabs killed near Ras el Ain after selling cows in Tel Aviv
1948, February 18
12 Arabs killed and 43 wounded at a marketplace in Ramla
1948, March 1
20 Britons killed and 30 wounded in the Bevingrad Officers Club bombing
1948, April 9-April 11
107-120 Palestinians killed and massacred (the estimate generally accepted by scholars, instead the first announced number of 254) during and after the battle at the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, by 132 Irgun and 60 Lehi fighters.
1948, April 6
7 British soldiers, including Commanding Officer, killed during an arms raid on Pardes Hanna Army camp.
 
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VDKMS said:
Who or what entitles you to decide that one can only go back 1000 years ????So, according to your view, the Pyramids are not Egyptian because they cannot prove that, they are build more than 4000 years ago.
Click to expand...

No offence but it is a silly question even though it keeps popping up in these discussions, (these are just rounded blocks of dates obviously they are not entirely accurate) 1000 years ago it was muslim, 2000 years ago it was Roman, 3000 years ago it was Jewish, 4000 years ago it was Egyptian, 5000 years ago Canaanite, 200,000 years ago more than likely Ethiopian where would you like to start, stop or pin the tail of justification?

The question I think most people should ask is not so much how far back do we go but rather who goes back the furtherest and my belief is you will find the middle eastern connection for modern Israeli DNA starts maybe 200 years ago while modern Palestinian Arab/Jew (if that is the right description) DNA goes back a whole lot further.
 
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Panzercracker said:
VDKMS, can you please quote normally? I'm not going to struggle with the silly sidescrollers.

So according to your logic Jews have the right to boot Palestinians because they lived in Palestine 2 milennia ago? Yes/No.
Click to expand...

No one is allowed to boot anyone, but the jews have the right to live in their country of origin.
 
senojekips said:
5 locomotives destroyed in Lydda station. Two staff, one soldier and one policeman killed.
1945, December 27
3 British policemen and 4 Basuto soldiers killed during the bombing of British CID headquarters in Jerusalem; 1 British soldier killed during attack of British army camp in north Tel Aviv
1946, February 22
Destroyed 14 aeroplanes at 5 RAF stations.
1946, July 22
91 people were killed at King David Hotel Bombing mostly civilians, staff of the hotel or Secretariat,
41 Palestinian Arabs, 15-28 British citizens, 17 Palestinian Jews, 2 Armenians, 1 Russian, 1 Greek and 1 Egyptian.
1946, October 30
2 British guards killed during Gunfire and explosion at Jerusalem Railway Station.
1946, October 31
Bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.
1947, January 12
4 killed in bombing of British headquarters.
1947, March 1
17 British officers killed, during raid and explosion.
1947, March 12
1 British soldier killed during the attack on Schneller Camp.
1947, July 29
2 kidnapped British sergeants hanged.
1947, September 26
4 British policemen killed in Irgun bank robbery.
1947, September 29
13 killed, 53 wounded in attack on British police station.
1947, December 11
13 killed in attack on Tireh, near Haifa
1947, December 12
20 killed, 5 wounded by barrel bomb at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
6 killed, 25 wounded by bombs outside Alhambra Cinema.
1947, December 13
5 killed, 47 wounded by two bombs at Damascus Gate.
1947, December 13
7 killed, 10 seriously injured in attack on Yehudieh.
1947, December 16(ca)
10 killed by bomb at Noga Cinema in Jaffa.
1947, December 20
6 Arabs killed, dozens wounded by bomb at Haifa refinery, precipitating the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, which lead to the Balad al-Shaykh massacre.
1947, December 29
14 Arabs killed by bomb in Jerusalem.
1948, January 1
2 Arabs killed and 9 injured by shooting attack on cafe in Jaffa.
1948, January 5
14 Arabs killed and 19 injured by truck bomb outside the 3-storey 'Serrani', Jaffa's built Ottoman Town Hall
1948, January 7
20 Arabs killed by bomb at Jaffa Gate.
1948, February 10
7 Arabs killed near Ras el Ain after selling cows in Tel Aviv
1948, February 18
12 Arabs killed and 43 wounded at a marketplace in Ramla
1948, March 1
20 Britons killed and 30 wounded in the Bevingrad Officers Club bombing
1948, April 9-April 11
107-120 Palestinians killed and massacred (the estimate generally accepted by scholars, instead the first announced number of 254) during and after the battle at the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, by 132 Irgun and 60 Lehi fighters.
1948, April 6
7 British soldiers, including Commanding Officer, killed during an arms raid on Pardes Hanna Army camp.
Click to expand...

I do not favor jews and I'm not against palestinians but if you only give a list of palestinian casualties then your list is incomplete. I found the website that has your list , I also found a website that lists the jewish casualties, allthough not as detailed as the one you posted. So, in order to give the reader a more complete picture of casualties I will list this list to supplement yours.

How many Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinians?
1919 – 1920: 49 Jews were murdered in pogroms and some hundreds were wounded.
1929; 123 Jews were murdered in pogroms and about 350 were wounded.
1936- 1939: 400 Jews were murdered and hundreds were wounded.
1947 – 1949: 2,000 civilians were killed / murdered by Palestinians and 4,000 soldiers were killed during the war against 7 Arab armies that invaded Israel immediately after Israel was formally announced by Ben Gurion.
Palestinian terror in Israel, 1950- 1967:465 Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinian terrorists.
1967 – 1988: Palestinian terror in Israel and abroad: 144 Jews were killed/ murdered and many wounded.
First Intifada, 1988 – 1991: 84 Jews were murdered.
Second Intifada, 2001 – 2006: 1,000 Jews were murdered and 6,000 were wounded.
Since 2006:177 were murdered
The list does not include Jews murdered between those dates.
2001 – 2007: 5,676 Israeli civilians were wounded in terrorist attacks
4,442 civilians – not soldiers, were killed/ murdered by Palestinians.

How many Jews Were Killed in Wars against Israel initiated by Arab states:
1948/9: 4,000 soldiers were killed and hundreds were wounded
1956:171 soldiers were killed and hundreds were wounded
1967:779 soldiers were killed and 2,593 were wounded
1971-3: The fighting on Suez Canal: 721 soldiers were killed, 705 were wounded.
1973:2,222 soldiers were killed and 5,596 were wounded
The total sum: 7,893 soldiers (mostly reserves) were killed and thousands were wounded because Arabs, Palestinians included, were determined to destroy the Jewish state.

These numbers are not the official numbers. The official number is more than 22,000. I collected the data from history books and the internet In short, this is not the full list.
Also, these numbers do not include the Lebanese wars.

PS - I had to shorten the list in the "Quote" because the text was to long (over 10000 characters). In order to see his complete list please go to his reply.
 
VDKMS said:
No one is allowed to boot anyone, but the jews have the right to live in their country of origin.
Click to expand...
Well if Jews are no allowed to boot anyone than they dont have a right to live in their own country since its NOT their country, its a palestinian country.
 
VDKMS said:
No one is allowed to boot anyone, but the jews have the right to live in their country of origin.
Click to expand...
Don't talk rubbish, even the Jews do not believe that, if they did they would allow the Palestinian people who were driven out in 1948 to regain their lands in Israel. Or is it that you feel that only Jews have a "Right of Return"?

If Jews have this mysterious "Right" to return to their place of origin, does that mean that all world's Lutherans have a "Right" to return to Germany and displace those living there now, or the Methodists to England, Bhuddists to India? The thought that any adult human being could ever support such a stupid concept is an insult to human intelligence.

VDKMS said:
I do not favor jews and I'm not against palestinians but if you only give a list of palestinian casualties then your list is incomplete. I found the website that has your list , I also found a website that lists the jewish casualties, allthough not as detailed as the one you posted. So, in order to give the reader a more complete picture of casualties I will list this list to supplement yours.

How many Jews were killed/murdered by Palestinians?
Click to expand...
Other than the fact that your rather "highly coloured" information* is garnered from a blatantly Zionist propaganda Blog,... you very conveniently missed the point didnt you? I posted this list to answer your rather inane question about the legitimacy of the Palestinians killing children on a bus, and your answer in no way explains or justifies the murder of members of the legitimate British Administration in Palestine, or even less the bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. The fact is, that the Zionist cause is no less a terrorist organisation than Al Quaeda is today.

*How convenient, that you see fit to list Israelis killed in a War started by them for no other reason than to drive Palestinians off their own lands into the adjoining Arab States. A bit like blaming the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto for the injuries and deaths of the troops trying to round them up for the camps. This, and similar distortions are so typical of the attempted defence of Israel's inexcusable ongoing policy of harassment and murder.
 
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Panzercracker said:
Well if Jews are no allowed to boot anyone than they dont have a right to live in their own country since its NOT their country, its a palestinian country.
Click to expand...

It never was palestinian country. All was part of the Ottoman Empire and after the British - who pushed back the Turks - left , the West Bank became a part of Jordan and Gaza was the responsibility of Egypt.
In 1988 Jordan renounced all claims to the territory occupied by Israel.
In 1993 Israel gave Gaza to the PLO and in 2005 the IDF and the jewish settlers left and the Israeli settlements were destroyed.
 
senojekips said:
Don't talk rubbish, even the Jews do not believe that, if they did they would allow the Palestinian people who were driven out in 1948 to regain their lands in Israel. Or is it that you feel that only Jews have a "Right of Return"?

If Jews have this mysterious "Right" to return to their place of origin, does that mean that all world's Lutherans have a "Right" to return to Germany and displace those living there now, or the Methodists to England, Bhuddists to India? The thought that any adult human being could ever support such a stupid concept is an insult to human intelligence.

Other than the fact that your rather "highly coloured" information* is garnered from a blatantly Zionist propaganda Blog,... you very conveniently missed the point didnt you? I posted this list to answer your rather inane question about the legitimacy of the Palestinians killing children on a bus, and your answer in no way explains or justifies the murder of members of the legitimate British Administration in Palestine, or even less the bombing of the British Embassy in Rome. The fact is, that the Zionist cause is no less a terrorist organisation than Al Quaeda is today.

*How convenient, that you see fit to list Israelis killed in a War started by them for no other reason than to drive Palestinians off their own lands into the adjoining Arab States. A bit like blaming the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto for the injuries and deaths of the troops trying to round them up for the camps. This, and similar distortions are so typical of the attempted defence of Israel's inexcusable ongoing policy of harassment and murder.
Click to expand...

You seem to mix or refuse to understand the difference between religion and statehood. It is not because the German Luther is the founder of Protestantism that al protestants are German.

About that list, yours comes from a anti-israeli web page but I accept them as facts (allthough I cannot verify that right now). Yes Israelis killed Palestinian militants and also innocent people. But the Paelstinians did the same. Do you agree with me that Palestinian militants have killed innocent people? If your answer is no, then please post a list with the casualties caused by the Abu Nidal Organization and Black September.
 
VDKMS said:
Then you must come back to Europe to:)
Click to expand...

But he isn't European so why does he have to go back to Europe, but he is right I suspect that most "modern" Israelis have more right to bits of Poland, Germany and Russia than the Middle East.

Lets be honest Israelis are not "settlers" they are colonists and as a Belgian you should understand how well that works.
 
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VDKMS said:
You seem to mix or refuse to understand the difference between religion and statehood.
Click to expand...
Not at all, your alleged confusion is purely as a result of your refusal to consider anything other than your own now obviously incorrect opinion, this leaves you with no alternative other than to claim that you don't understand my point. Germany is certainly a State and you claim that Israel is a State, You also claim or infer, that because Judaism was founded in Palestine, Jews should have the legal "Right" to invade Palestine and return 1000+ years later, killing the legitimate owners who resist having their land taken from them and driving most of the remainder into neighbouring countries.... So my point was to demonstrate that by your rather flaky reasoning, expatriate Lutherans should have a similar right to return to Germany and just push the present owners off their land and kill them if they resist. With the same applying to any religious group that were formed in a particular geographical area. Neither I nor the International community agree with you. http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil3.htm

VDKMS said:
About that list, yours comes from a anti-israeli web page
Click to expand...
No it doesn't,... it is from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks,... Wikipedia being a site where the Jewish pro Zionist group CAMERA are known to operate in an effort to "bend" information wherever possible, that may be construed as anti Israeli. So if anything at all, it would be far more realistic to say that it is generally pro-Israeli. The very fact that Zionists feel the need to do this is a good indication that they are aware how poorly their policies are viewed by the rest of the world.

VDKMS said:
Do you agree with me that Palestinian militants have killed innocent people? If your answer is no, then please post a list with the casualties caused by the Abu Nidal Organization and Black September.
Click to expand...
Maybe they have, but that was never the point of my answer. You asked if the killing of Israeli children on a bus was OK, I answered to show that your question was moot and only a diversion from the facts, as Israelis have been using terror tactics on Palestinian women and children for over 100 years, unfortunately I could only find a source that listed actual details from 1937. I listed it all to demonstrate that these attacks have not been isolated incidents and that they deliberately targeted innocent civilians and British Administrators.

VDKMS said:
In 1993 Israel gave Gaza to the PLO and in 2005 the IDF and the jewish settlers left and the Israeli settlements were destroyed.
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No the Israelis didn't give it,... it was never theirs to give. It belonged to the people of Palestine, it was only occupied (illegally)* by Israel, and they returned it to it's rightful owners due to International pressure.

*The quote below is from the Israel Law resource Centre, based on findings of the ICJ and the UN as to the Illegality of Israel's occupation.
Israel Law Resource Centre said:
#8. ILLEGAL MILITARY OCCUPATION: The current Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal. Military actions and occupations are considered legal only if they are based on self-defense (as Israel claims) or are designed to benefit the native population of the occupied areas, but it is now clear that Israel's occupation is illegalbecause Israeli implementation of it clearly is about:
  • (1) Acquisition of land into Israel by force, and
  • (2) Economic exploitation of the occupied areas via building up de facto Annexation on occupied lands --
    • (A) Extensive modification of local laws, and
    • (B) Building Israeli settlements on occupied lands (illegal population transfer),
    • (C) Building separation barrier not on border but through Palestinian communities displacing over 200,000 Palestinian civilians separating them from their families, work, schools, hospitals, etc.
  • (3) Inhumane suppression of rebellion is implemented through --
    • (A) Practice of Collective Punishment, and
    • (B) Extensive violations of Palestinian Human Rights.
All 7 of these policy actions are illegal according to international law (see details below), which thus makes the occupation itself illegal. Press HERE for more details and quotes from the law concerning the legality of Israel's occupation.
Click to expand...
 
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I once again try to explain my point of view (see also my post 2 days ago).
There is a difference between living somewhere and owning it. Palestinans (majority) and Jews (minority) lived in Palestine but the Turks (Ottoman Empire) owned (governed) it. Before that it were different rulers but it was never ruled by the Palestinians. After the Turks came the British with a mandate. Because of what was happening in Europe (Germany) some Jews were allowed to go to Palestine. Some came legal others illegal, but more and more came to Palestine. Anyway, after WWII the state of Israel was created. It became a sovereign state. The Arabs refused their part which was understandable. Then they made 2 big mistakes. They attacked a sovereign state and they underestimated the strength of the Israeli defences. They lost. Then the West Bank was given to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt. So the Palestinians were governed by three nations. Some by Israel (the ones who stayed, not everyone left or was kicked out) , the others by Jordan and Egypt. More info here . Then in 1967 Israel attacked the Arabs (who were ready to attack Israel but waited to long) and won. This time the Arabs lost territory. The West Bank , Gaza , Golan Heights and the Sinai were occupied by the Israelis. So, the West Bank was Jordanian land occupied by Israel. Then in 1988 something very important happenend, Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank. And this is the sticky point. Who owns the West Bank? Not the Palestinians , the never owned it. Not Jordan , they renounced it. Not Israel , they didn't annexed it (and had no right to do so). Not all international lawyers are unanimous in this. So we can argue forever.
So, are the Palestinians allowed to have a sovereign country of their own? YES. Do they have one? NO. What the Palestinians are doing now is like an investor who has stocks in decline and does not want to sell. He will end up with nothing. As long as the Palestinians don't have a sovereign country the Israelis will build and expand settlements. After WWII Poland lost a big chunk of its territory to the Russians. They had two choices. Attack , like the Palestinians did and are still doing, or take their losses. They choose the latter, rolled up their sleeves and started rebuilding their country. It's booming now. Germany the same. It was flattened, they took their losse rolled up their sleeves and started building their country. It's now a big economic player in the world. So the Palestinians should take their losses roll up their sleeves and start building their country. Once they have a souverein state new and expanding Israeli settlements are stopped. Then they can try to get control of the settlements. Remember, not all laywers are unanimous in this. But toghether with a growing international support (if they stop shooting rockets at Israeli towns) they have a high chance of winning.
I'd like to say one more thing. When a Palestinian militant kills a Jew he is welcomed in his town as a hero. A few hours later comes the Israeli retaliation. And they hit back hard. Maybe killing 10 Palestinians. So, in my point of view, the "hero" is responsible for the death of 1 israeli and 10 palestinians because if he didn't kill the jew the 10 palestinians would still be alive. But it is worse. The killed jew propably is just a farmer or worker at the wrong place at the wrong time. But chances are high that among the 10 palestinians there were important people. The ones with brains. The ones needed in a Palestinian state.
 
MontyB said:
But he isn't European so why does he have to go back to Europe, but he is right I suspect that most "modern" Israelis have more right to bits of Poland, Germany and Russia than the Middle East.

Lets be honest Israelis are not "settlers" they are colonists and as a Belgian you should understand how well that works.
Click to expand...

The situation is different. I'm not going to argue if its wright or wrong. But the Jews always believed that Palestine is the land promised by god to them. I think it is in the bible (I'm not religious so I'm not 100% sure), so they went to their "promised land".
The first "settlers" of America went over there because they were persecuted because of their religion. Thereafter came the ones that colonised it and fought the native indians. Most Americans have european ancesters. Custer's troops at the battle of the Little Bighorn were most Germans.
Congo was "found" by Stanley on a mission from King Leopold II. So the king "owned" the congo before giving it to Belgium. The Belgians then send missionaries to convert the "savages" and bussinessmen to colonise (plunder) the land. As did the French , Germans and English in Africa. The Dutch in Indonesia and so on.
 
VDKMS said:
But the Jews always believed that Palestine is the land promised by god to them.
Click to expand...
And Germans believed that Jews need to be gassed so? And i believe i need to earn more money and that my seargant is a fag, your point being?
VDKMS said:
I think it is in the bible (I'm not religious so I'm not 100% sure), so they went to their "promised land".
Click to expand...
Bible is written by Jews, so Jews believed a book written by Jews, see how ****ed up your reasoning is yet?

The point is that You are attempting to defend some pretty messed up actions by Israeli Jews via lawyering and gibberish.
 
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