is taiwan a card in a U.S-China politic game?

[Zyca]

I think we are going off topic, it was whether Taiwan is a card in the US-China political game, now it's heading towards whether Taiwan should declare TI or China should invade Taiwan, or who would suffer more. Why don't we try and not get this topic locked for a while

The US is committed to provide Taiwan with weapons to defend itself (basically against China), while the US also publicly supports the One-China policy. Are these policies contradicting themselves? The one-China policy holds that there is but one China and that Taiwan is part of China, but the Taiwan Relations Act puts the US in a position to help defend Taiwan if the PRC does invade (PRC is recognized internationally as the only government of China, so in this case, if would be China invading "part of China" according to the One-China policy). I still think that this is a strategy to keep China busy, because obvsiously the US can tilt the balance either way at its will (dropping either policy promptly). Both China and Taiwan need to be friendly with the US in order to gain support, and that is the best scenario for the US right now. This is also why TI or unification (by any mean), resulting in the end of the Taiwan-China conflict, would sound an alarm for the US. The question really is, for how long can this "card" be played? When will the US be forced to face the determination of the Chinese in the wake of the Taiwanese identity?

My guess is early 2006. It's really the best time. China's military superiority over Taiwan would be greater in 2006 than it is now, and the US will still be busy with the postwar Iraq and have limited ability to help, while people in Taiwan still have some identity issues (the longer you wait, the less doubt there is that everyone on the island calls himself or herself Taiwanese), and 2006 is 2 years before the Olympics, giving Beijing enough time to recover from the invasion. If 2006 goes by without conflict, China would most likely devote time and effort to prepare for the Olympics in 2007 and 2008. By then the US would most likely have regained its commanding power, Taiwanese people would also have grown significantly in support of having their own identity, things would just be tougher and the cost would be much higer.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Sorry, getting back on topic.

I can see the point being made that Taiwan is a card being played by the USA, but I don't know that the USA truly wants to keep the Taiwan question unanswered indefinitely. It is better for US economic interests to have the greatest possible stability in Southeast Asia and the Status Quo leaves the door wide open for all hell to break loose. Yes, the USA sells arms to Taiwan and many others in the region, but anything gained there cannot begin to compensate for what could be lost if SE Asia explodes into any degree of war.

Taiwan and China must ultimately decide that matter. China may say, "You should not encourage Taiwan to declare itself independent. You should be encouraging them to reunite." Americans aren't used to thinking of Taiwan as a part of China simply because we have had open relations with them all along and they act like an independent nation, so American public opinion cannot be faulted. The Government of the US is more aware and has the dubious honor of trying to keep both sides happy. The only way to do that is to encourage the Status Quo and try to keep the peace. It is a tense balancing act that the USA would rather not have to play.

 

[Boobies]

Hehhhe...

Sexybeast, we all appreciate your points. However, we don't want this topic becoming "I will and can beat you up, and you will suffer" topic.

Zyca, very good points you made. I am enjoying some good points from a Taiwanese.

Thunder, I don't think it was Chiang's arrogance not to declare TW's independence. Deep down, he felt he was a Chinese. It was one of the reasons that he followed Dr Sun's crusade of unification of China.

I am heading to work, will check back in a bit.

 

[Regisvo]

Colin Powell went to beijing and say taiwan belongs to china in the first time for many years

For amusingly thinking.

Taiwan is a lil part of body of China. You know that means LP. LOL. The US are grasping at the LP, China is painful from that.

Long ago, several lil part or big part of body of China had been grasped. Such as Mongolia, Viet Nam, Korea. Then other told us if China quitclaimed these parts of body, China would get better. Because according to Western tradition and concept of polity, Nation-State is better than our United-People tradition and concept of polity. OR said that because traditional China wasn't Nation-State, so she was a EMPIRE. But how about the United Kingdom and the United States?

Many parts of body had quitclaimed. Nowadays she likes a handicapped. China have suffered enough pain. But yet thing is continuing. Today some people are presuming, if the mainland-ese of China quitclaimed the island of Taiwan (the LP), it could be better. I'd say: Oh, Are the people torturing us? or are the people regarding us like GOD?

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As long as China doesn't start expanding, then I'm not really sure what strategic value Taiwan has, for both sides

expanding? I can't understand what you mean. But I will attempt to explain something to you. Taiwan is the territory of China. Note that territory and dominion is different word (concept). If people used incorrect word (concept) for consequence, people would get wrong conclusion, right?

Dominion: A territory or sphere of influence or control; a realm.

Territory: The land and waters under the jurisdiction of a government.

Jurisdiction: The right and power to interpret and apply the law.

Foreigner can act as a OBSERVER, but no right to act as a moderator or a judge. An OBSERVER can't do this: twist, spin, twist, right. (ooops sorry I meant Jurisdiction, haha, I'm citing 03USMC's quotability wisdom)

I thought that act with unilateral agreement and no warranty and disclaimer of consequential damages is lawless. Is the Taiwan Relations Act a twist-spin-twist-right action?

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Its a bone of contention and a silly excuse for justifying confrontation between China and the USA

You know that US courts haven't jurisdiction in Taiwan special district of China.

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it's a free and independant country. with it's own laws, economy and political system. and has been independant of china since the Nationalist left the mainland

Independent: Not governed by a foreign power; self-governing.

I know that you are not meaning self-rule, so you are not willing to challenge the law of China. You are welcome.

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Personally, I don't understand why tiny scrap of land triggers so much anger and hostility

Thomas Hobbes had already expatiated the circumstance of no-law. No doubt, a challenge to the law of China must be defeated. Whatever open mind resort would be employed. I wish you comprehend this.

The point at which the entire free world takes exception to the PRC's stance is simple

You must be familiar with jurisprudence because US is a country that rule by law. The fact is that US consider the role of the OBSERVER is inartistic. As for other country, don't you watch news?

the people of Taiwan have no right to decide the matter for themselves

This is an unfair call by biased people. The mainland-ese of China admit autonomy. It means that self-government is OK, but can not bear Taiwan-island-ese's claim - self-rule.

If we are talking about a circumstances of insurrection and rebellion similar to the Amercian Civil War, such a stand would seem valid. But in this case, you have a land and an people who have been a separate country in everthing but name since the PRC took control of the mainland. You have a land and people that has never bound itself to a government (the PRC) and agreed to submit to their authority. And the PRC has never established their control of Taiwan. They never were under the PRC's control, so we have a completely different situation from the American Civil War

If you considered that government is only thing. That means rule by person - such as authority, dictator, and so on - not rule by law.

And US is under Anglo-American law system. The AA law system belongs to the category of common-law. I consider people should respect Han-ese tradition. The word tradition have a meaning: Transfer of property to another. How about the territory of China? But don't consider "Genghis Khan ruled it is no free pass for China to do so now". None Qin-ese claim the land Genghis Khan once occuped.

One bit of nonsense is that any move by Taiwan away from the Mainland is somehow a move towards them being dominated by the USA

It's a pity that US gave the Taiwan-island-ese option that don't comply our common-law. Too bad.

The PRC is crying out for reunification and reconciliation, so isn't that suggestion doing exactly the opposite thing

You know that sometimes law might not be executed peaceably. Sad, US weapon will cause many Qin-ese lawman to be injured. Perhaps someone might tell me why.

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But how do you claim Taiwan? I mean it's been under nationalist control since the beginning

Control do not means rule.

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That is what I have come to expect from the Chinese perspective. "Attack it!!! Killl it!!! Punish the traitors!!!" That is precisely why it is a pointless discussion

Offender is not refugee; Criminal is not refugee. To pretending offender or criminal as refugee is interesting, but it will cause serious response. So don't kid other, please.

Why? Because of China's level of determination on the issue. Because they have no intention of ever allowing Taiwan and its people to decide for themselves --- unless it is a decision to reunite --- the Independence Movement in Taiwan is extremely dangerous. So who is at fault for that danger? The danger wouldn't even exist without China stance on the Taiwan question. Frankly, it is an extremely reckless and stubborn stand to take. Taiwan Independence is stupid because it gains them absolutely nothing and has a strong chance of losing them everything

Autonomy meaning nothing? Self-rule is whole? Hell! It seems that some people don't know Free-Will is very dangerous sometimes.

"Only you, can make this world seem right,
Only you, can make the darkness bright,
Only you and you alone, can thrill me like you do"

Okay, fair enough, but there isn't anybody from Taiwan to take the opposite view, so the discussion then consists of a tiresome series of Chinamen reaffirming to each other how absolutely right and righteous their cause is and how evil Taiwan independence is

When you were qualified as an OBSERVER, do not act as a MODERATOR.

Naturally, we all hope for the best

If we all hoped for the best, we should be convinced of that Free-Will was not the only thing. Sometimes open mind means crazy mind.

has not annexed Taiwan and made it their own. You hear mess of pure nonsense stating that, "any move toward independence for Taiwan is a move toward enslaving them to the USA"

Nobody considered the Taiwan island is US's dominion or territory. The question is that pretending as moderator, even judge, is undesirable. Define this, define that...

but they stand to lose a great deal if Southeast Asia is thrown into war by the matter

Are Southeast Asia relative to Taiwan-Separateness? Or it sounds like a thunder? Maybe you need to being played with an accompaniment - Our country's big man had said that if the calamity triggered, entire Asia and the Pacific region would be involved. Not merely East Asia, it means that the North America is in the Pacific region. Apparently the media did not tell people the serious fact. For what? To challenge the law is very amusing? unfortunately. But we have a good news that you are not the decision-maker of the US. So people will happy. LOL

What has that got to do with drawing borders on the world map anyways? Doesn't seem to stop anyone else on this planet from doing their own thing. Examples are endless

I have said that there was some persons who drawing borders with legal way and lawless way selectively - "Law in one hand, propaganda of Darwinism in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming ~ WOO HOO what a liberty!" Are you happy with this? pointlessly. Apparently, you want fool Qin-ese according to old-time modes. But you have mentioned that Confucius, Sun Tzu was wise enough fellow. Was it a bad idea to fool them?

I thought that the part reason is that China (Zhou, Qin, Han, Tang, Ming, Qing, etc, it's same thing, whatever above name is correct) is a secular country traditionally, so to employ propaganda to affect China is very difficult

Lets face it, right now Taiwan is doing just fine on their own

Offending our Common-Law is doing just fine? Doing Nazi-salute just fine? You are always mixing things up. Oh, yea, US prefer cocktail.

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it won't be politic that bring china and taiwan together (if that ever happens) it will be business

Oh, chewie, you can't get our LP off. It's our precious that can not for deal indeed. How about we get your LP off? LOL

keep it up guys, this might be a very interesting discussion if it stays civil!

Apparently, you don't hear thunder.

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The key there is keeping the discussion nice and civil

Interesting enough. Somehow seems that you have Chinese nationality.

That is a great example of not keeping the discussion civil and is a strong move towards the Hall of Shame. Lets not go that direction and maybe the thread stays alive.

To talk about missiles is a strong move towards the Hall of Shame? To encourage to defy the law of China is a strong move towards the Hall of Proud? Ironically. If so, we need more missiles, it is emblematizing the reverence of the law of China in this case. Because some people don't reverence the country's laws, we need more and more reverences till to be sufficient. It's reasonable, right?

The loss of one enormous market that is so close hurts, but it doesn't cause Taiwan's economy to spontaneously collapse. Neither side profits from severing economic ties

We wishfully want directly civil traffic across the straits. But somehow somebody deny it and prefer choose un-peaceful traffic.

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I dont think Tiawan needs China at all, they can support themselves easlly

Sad, do we have wishful thinking about directly civil traffic between the straits?

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What I fail to see is how China plans to sell the idea of submitting to PRC governmental rule. If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule

I have to correct that government is about governing, not ruling. Is the US ruling by the government or ruling by the law?

If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule, then you may have saved millions of dollars, millions of lives and a whole lot of rebuilding costs

Autonomy means self-government, not self-rule. Millions, millions, how about yours? If you prefered a defiant choice, you should tell the people what it will cause.

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Yea but there is nothing that China could offer to improve their way of life

Nice people, indeed we need law for improving life. If not so, we'll get mess. Thanks.

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Wow! I haven't ever typed so many English, tough work.

Now come to summing-up. Perhaps the US's administration are playing card of the joker, because the joker mighy be conveniently define - If you want a Q, that's a Q; If you want a A, that's a A. The US always plays card by this way. They do not prefer to play with thunder, that is God' job. Those wise enough fellows, President Bush, Secretary of State Lady-Hawk Rice, Minister of Offence (?) Gentleman-Hawk Rumsfeld, know that although they have magic cards, but they are not the God.

.-""-.--.
( God )
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Cheers

 

[CABAL]

I'm impressed.

I myself don't know much about China's Law System as well it's importance through historical contexts but I do understand the basic workings from Historical texts, which I often read when I was in College. So again, I'm impressed with your post.

 

[Zyca]

An interesting post. I understand your opinion that Taiwan is part of China, so anything Taiwan does needs to comply with PRC's laws, and others should not interfere. Not new, but consistent.

My opinion, throughout the past, has been that Taiwan is self-ruled (self-governed, self-entertained, self-fed, self-taught, self-toilet-trained, etc.) and independent from China. We got a ruling government that runs business with our own rules, or laws. Not new, but also consistent. 8)

 

[Regisvo]

I myself don't know much about China's Law System as well it's importance through historical contexts but I do understand the basic workings from Historical texts

As far as I knew, our courtry are evolving a new Post-Modern Law System which comprise the Case Law and the Statute Law. It's very difficult to find a certain Statute Law which be applicable for all cases. But if we found the Statute Law, the Case Law should be invalid. So it might avoid double standard.

Plus David Hume's oppugning to the induction was partially incorrect.

self-governed, self-entertained, self-fed, self-taught, self-toilet-trained, etc

Why are there so many SELF? How about to do change a bit of perspective? The game isn't always FPS style.

 

[k19]

It’s a card for the Americans alright; I don't think china has the time and energy to play such card game with the Americans, its deadly serious matter to the Chinese.

An interesting post. I understand your opinion that Taiwan is part of China, so anything Taiwan does needs to comply with PRC's laws, and others should not interfere. Not new, but consistent.

My opinion, throughout the past, has been that Taiwan is self-ruled (self-governed, self-entertained, self-fed, self-taught, self-toilet-trained, etc.) and independent from China. We got a ruling government that runs business with our own rules, or laws. Not new, but also consistent.

Well, Mr. Zyca, I put some words under another topic for you, but been accused "off topic". Anyways, I will paste it here. (People care about off topic more than reading some interesting thought here)

So, exactly how I, as a Chinese, understand the Taiwan issue? Here it is:
A simple way of understanding it:

You know what? 23 million people decide to take the shame to disband their country's 92% of the land does not means 1.3 billion others have to take the same shame to lose that 8 percent. That is the problem and that is the reality. Taiwan’s constitutions do include mainland as part of their territory even now isn't it?! Willing to cut their own land, own history for “freedom”? What a guts move!

You can argue about two different systems and me too, I do agree, and you can take it as an excuse to keep the way it is for now, but this is not the excuse to go independence. Separatists attend to paint china as a threat to Taiwan, but, ignore the fact that china does not demand an immediately uniting of the Taiwan region by force or other, but they can’t hide their attempts to separate the land, which is the key point of why china keeps their military option open. Decades of not firing a single shot at the region is a great achievement because Taiwan does not go free, simple as that. Both sides can even sat down and talk peacefully because of that, so who is really responsible for the worsened situation? What can really benefit both sides and even the Americans? Keep the way it is, help the mainland change to a more free society, and keep the nation united, no independence, no invasion, and no worry. Isn’t it what a real Chinese should do? China’s worry is not some contradiction without prove, the separatists movement is a clear threat to the peace of the region.

I even more than happy to see Taiwanese come to the mainland and liberate us one day! It is not impossible; you know what is so great about Chinese society? They can adopt communism, but not follow the rules, make their own modification, and they can adopt market economy as well, they sure can adopt democracy one day in the future, the Chinese way. I always respect the S/N Koreans, because they can point guns to each other but not denying their root and blood, Germans also. Have the guts to go independents, but don't have the willing to help out their own kind?

To the worst, what if china lost Taiwan?? Diaoyu Island goes to the Japanese next? Give up the east Chinese sea to Japanese as well? Lose South China Sea to others? Will china have to live the shame again like the 1840's to get the whole Chinese civilization to unite once more???!!! Seriously, my Taiwanese friends, what is so great about defending those separatist anyways? They brought fire to the region, they brought uncertainty, they brought war to us, they cost both sides taxpayer’s money to build up weapons to against each other, and they should not live in this land!

You know what? When the Japanese announced that officially taken over the light house on the Diaoyu Island, what is Taiwan’s reaction? It’s hard to have a reaction to the "friendly Japanese" when your former president is a 1/4 Japanese and agree with them isn't it? Or seeking protection from them in exchange??!! Look at the map man, it is an island only one step away from Taiwan and big as* way to the Japanese! Compare to the South Korean took their island back from the Japanese years ago, that wasn't impressed Chinese people at all!

What exactly is the card role Taiwan play here to the Chinese? None, Chinese needs it to survive! Well, I hope Chinese from both sides can one day finally realize the overall outcome, unite once more, this is the only way that the Chinese will not being played with by others to against each other for their entertainment and interests. It’s time to think ourselves!

 

[Zyca]

This is really going off topic even in this thread. I think I'll just simply sum up my points and not get into any serious debates here.

Well, Mr. Zyca, I put some words under another topic for you, but been accused "off topic". Anyways, I will paste it here. (People care about off topic more than reading some interesting thought here)

So, exactly how I, as a Chinese, understand the Taiwan issue? Here it is:
A simple way of understanding it:

You know what? 23 million people decide to take the shame to disband their country's 92% of the land does not means 1.3 billion others have to take the same shame to lose that 8 percent. That is the problem and that is the reality. Taiwan’s constitutions do include mainland as part of their territory even now isn't it?! Willing to cut their own land, own history for “freedom”? What a guts move!

I'll once again state that I respect your opinion that Taiwan is but a part of China. I have had the same discussions here with other Chinese folks and we failed to reach a conclusion and all threads resulted in locks by the mods.

You can argue about two different systems and me too, I do agree, and you can take it as an excuse to keep the way it is for now, but this is not the excuse to go independence. Separatists attend to paint china as a threat to Taiwan, but, ignore the fact that china does not demand an immediately uniting of the Taiwan region by force or other, but they can’t hide their attempts to separate the land, which is the key point of why china keeps their military option open. Decades of not firing a single shot at the region is a great achievement because Taiwan does not go free, simple as that. Both sides can even sat down and talk peacefully because of that, so who is really responsible for the worsened situation? What can really benefit both sides and even the Americans? Keep the way it is, help the mainland change to a more free society, and keep the nation united, no independence, no invasion, and no worry. Isn’t it what a real Chinese should do? China’s worry is not some contradiction without prove, the separatists movement is a clear threat to the peace of the region.

I even more than happy to see Taiwanese come to the mainland and liberate us one day! It is not impossible; you know what is so great about Chinese society? They can adopt communism, but not follow the rules, make their own modification, and they can adopt market economy as well, they sure can adopt democracy one day in the future, the Chinese way. I always respect the S/N Koreans, because they can point guns to each other but not denying their root and blood, Germans also. Have the guts to go independents, but don't have the willing to help out their own kind?

To the worst, what if china lost Taiwan?? Diaoyu Island goes to the Japanese next? Give up the east Chinese sea to Japanese as well? Lose South China Sea to others? Will china have to live the shame again like the 1840's to get the whole Chinese civilization to unite once more???!!! Seriously, my Taiwanese friends, what is so great about defending those separatist anyways? They brought fire to the region, they brought uncertainty, they brought war to us, they cost both sides taxpayer’s money to build up weapons to against each other, and they should not live in this land!

You know what? When the Japanese announced that officially taken over the light house on the Diaoyu Island, what is Taiwan’s reaction? It’s hard to have a reaction to the "friendly Japanese" when your former president is a 1/4 Japanese and agree with them isn't it? Or seeking protection from them in exchange??!! Look at the map man, it is an island only one step away from Taiwan and big as* way to the Japanese! Compare to the South Korean took their island back from the Japanese years ago, that wasn't impressed Chinese people at all!

What exactly is the card role Taiwan play here to the Chinese? None, Chinese needs it to survive! Well, I hope Chinese from both sides can one day finally realize the overall outcome, unite once more, this is the only way that the Chinese will not being played with by others to against each other for their entertainment and interests. It’s time to think ourselves!

All I can say at the end is that we Taiwanese are rarely understood but often judged. We are not doing things because we want to create problems and we certainly don't need excuses to do things that we want to do. I understand that Chinese claim us as part of them and don't want to let us go, but being on the other side I'd just like to say I disagree with that approach, especially with the disrespect I see from both their people and their government.

 

[lumberjack]

An interesting post. I understand your opinion that Taiwan is part of China, so anything Taiwan does needs to comply with PRC's laws, and others should not interfere. Not new, but consistent.

My opinion, throughout the past, has been that Taiwan is self-ruled (self-governed, self-entertained, self-fed, self-taught, self-toilet-trained, etc.) and independent from China. We got a ruling government that runs business with our own rules, or laws. Not new, but also consistent. 8)

self-fed.....?

even canada has to be nice to china these days to try to get some scraps on the trading tables...

look at the trading numbers...taiwan needs china more than china needs taiwan

 

[Zyca]

An interesting post. I understand your opinion that Taiwan is part of China, so anything Taiwan does needs to comply with PRC's laws, and others should not interfere. Not new, but consistent.

My opinion, throughout the past, has been that Taiwan is self-ruled (self-governed, self-entertained, self-fed, self-taught, self-toilet-trained, etc.) and independent from China. We got a ruling government that runs business with our own rules, or laws. Not new, but also consistent. 8)

self-fed.....?

even canada has to be nice to china these days to try to get some scraps on the trading tables...

look at the trading numbers...taiwan needs china more than china needs taiwan

Define need.

 

[Boobies]

Lumberjack...

the need to trade, but not the need to survive.

 

[Zyca]

Re: Lumberjack...

the need to trade, but not the need to survive.

I myself prefer the term desire to trade... But if we are talking about the same thing, then yeah Taiwanese do need/desire to trade with Chinese. But keep in mind trading is mutually beneficial... Would you trade with me when you constantly get ripped off?

 

[Boobies]

LOL.

if in that case, Zyca, I will go after your sista. Muhahahha.

:lol:

 

[Zyca]

Re: LOL.

if in that case, Zyca, I will go after your sista. Muhahahha.

:lol:

No worries, I suck at trading...

 

[MadeInChina]

its all about economic my friends, and currently taiwan needs to rethink its strategy, because they are going down the hill if they start again on the independent movement

lol, the economy matters even more to the taiwanese, because thats basically all theyve got, they have little or no natural reousrces like japan, and can only become rich through trading

 

[Corocotta]

China has unveiled a controversial new law allowing it to use force against Taiwan if it protests at plans for reunification.

The Chinese government has said it will use the draft law to attack Taiwan if it tries to gain independence.

Taiwan issued a strong protest against the proposal, saying it ignores the island’s sovereignty and raises tension in the region by giving the Chinese military the freedom to attack.

Beijing views the self-ruled island as a breakaway province and has threatened to attack if it declares formal statehood.

Chiu Tai-shan, vice chairman of the policy-making Mainland Affairs Council, said: "Communist China tries to use this bill to deny the sovereignty of the Republic of China and unilaterally change the status quo of the Taiwan Strait. It has caused tension in the region. We voice our strongest protest."

The new anti-secession law sets out the "one-country, two-systems" formula - as employed in Hong Kong - as the basic approach to the island.

Over the weekend, thousands of Taiwanese protested over the introduction of the anti-secession legislation.

The controversial bill, which has been shrouded in secrecy for months, is expected to be approved by the Chinese parliament on March 14.

Wang Zhaoguo, deputy chairman of China’s National People’s Congress Standing Committee, said: "If possibilities for a peaceful reunification should be completely exhausted, the state shall employ non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China’s sovereignty and territorial integrity."

 

[k19]

the law is basicly sum up the points what china has said in 50 years. if US can make a law about Taiwan, china certainly have the same rights to make our own. it's not new, without the law, china would attack Taiwan if they go independentce as well. putting it in paper could be a step that china make his point more clear, we are serious. if you carefully read the statements that china made in the last 50 years, you could find that china have backed to the wall in this issue, even the one china policy, from 1 china-PRC to only china, no specific identity. it's time to get serious for both side, it's time to start talking.

 

[MadeInChina]

well card playing hu, now weve got the 4 ace and a single



believe me, a word of independence is on a rebel bill of the taiwanese government and the law will FORCE the chiense government to attack, we must obey our new law, or else will u call us a government tha break our own law?