is taiwan a card in a U.S-China politic game?

[Sexybeast]

so why France bothers to take back lands Germans had taken away from them many years ago, in 19th century.......if, every body lives according to ur theory that IT IS TIME TO LET IT GO....

In that case, you had a German occupation of Allsace Lorraine - a coutry full of lots of French and lots of Germans, so both claimed it. Doesn't really fit for what you are talking about because the USA or UK or France or whoever else ... has not annexed Taiwan and made it their own. You hear mess of pure nonsense stating that, "any move toward independence for Taiwan is a move toward enslaving them to the USA". The USA has its influence over many things, but that is one helluva stretch. The USA has nothing to gain from Taiwanese Independence that they do not already have now, but they stand to lose a great deal if Southeast Asia is thrown into war by the matter.

What choice does the United States have but to favor the Status Quo?

the lands of taiwan has been taken by the acestors of chinese ppl
(including a 56-ehtic groups), and built by the off springs of chinese ppl, and live like chinese ppl, (completely same culture, same lauguage (local taiwanese laugugae is a local lauguage of Fujian province in china, most of taiwanese population come from Fujian province in Ming dynasty))

What has that got to do with drawing borders on the world map anyways? Doesn't seem to stop anyone else on this planet from doing their own thing. Examples are endless.

taiwanese ppl dont want to get back to china cuz they want democracy, but in the future, china and taiwan wil still be together someday, cuz they are just the same.......

Lets face it, right now Taiwan is doing just fine on their own. China needs to make it worth their while. Invasion isn't likely to endear PRC rule to the hearts of the people of Taiwan. The best end to the story would be peaceful reunification.

wut i am talking about is taht dont try to justify taiwan's independance or discredit china's move to take taiwan back......cuz there are just so many examples to back it up...if u say it is wrong...than i can tell u, not lots of thing in this world is right, ask indians if they can take their lands back from americans....it is those powerful nations shit on the little guys

and taiwan is doing fine not by itself....but with china's trading..

taiwan sold over 40 billion of products and imported 10 billion of products to china only last year...china now stands as taiwan's largest trading partner......u know how many taiwanese got jobs due to trading with china, u know how much tax taiwanese government recieves from those trading industry,

and half-milion taiwanese working and doing buisness and studying in china...

it is just too closely connected...trying to seperate will bring disaster to taiwan, not just from military, but also to economy,

if cuts tie with taiwan, china does not lose so much, as taiwan stands only 5-6% of china's total trading revenue...but china will lose lots of investment too (although taiwan's investment is really small compared to other western nations)

and in 1995-6, when china shoot 6 missiles over taiwan's sky, 20 billion U.S dollar escaped from taiwan, taiwan's stock market crushed 1/3....

now china has 706 missiles pointed at taiwan, if a war really breaks out, taiwan's eonomy will suffer more loss

so dont seperate, or suffer

 

[Zyca]

what i am talking about is taht dont try to justify taiwan's independance or discredit china's move to take taiwan back......cuz there are just so many examples to back it up...if u say it is wrong...than i can tell u, not lots of thing in this world is right, ask indians if they can take their lands back from americans....it is those powerful nations shit on the little guys

and taiwan is doing fine not by itself....but with china's trading..

taiwan sold over 40 billion of products and imported 10 billion of products to china only last year...china now stands as taiwan's largest trading partner......u know how many taiwanese got jobs due to trading with china, u know how much tax taiwanese government recieves from those trading industry,

and half-milion taiwanese working and doing buisness and studying in china...

it is just too closely connected...trying to seperate will bring disaster to taiwan, not just from military, but also to economy,

if cuts tie with taiwan, china does not lose so much, as taiwan stands only 5-6% of china's total trading revenue...but china will lose lots of investment too (although taiwan's investment is really small compared to other western nations)

Somehow I feel that a lock is coming soon and this topic is going to the Hall of Shame before I finish the reply...

I am sure China is benefitting from Taiwan... trading is only one way to look at economy. One of the problems the US is facing is unemployment. A lot of outsourcing positions opened up the floodgate for companies to ditch the local high-wage earning employees and favor the cheaper labors in other countries (India, China, etc.) due to difference in standards of living. I don't have a number of how many local jobs the Taiwanese companies created in China, but I'd say with the amount of investments those companies placed in China, it's got to be quite significant. Imagine one day all those jobs disappeared, would Taiwan be the only party that suffered from the loss?

A simple economy tells us that when a deal goes through, normally both parties get what they want. One might get more than the other but keep in mind both need to benefit in order for the deal to go through. I don't think many Chinese people complain about having jobs and getting paid...

and in 1995-6, when china shoot 6 missiles over taiwan's sky, 20 billion U.S dollar escaped from taiwan, taiwan's stock market crushed 1/3....

now china has 706 missiles pointed at taiwan, if a war really breaks out, taiwan's eonomy will suffer more loss

so dont seperate, or suffer

Don't threaten, nobody takes those well. Approach the problem with open mind and strike for win-win deals, then both can be happy and things will be that much easier.

 

[chewie_nz]

keep it up guys, this might be a very interesting discussion if it stays civil!

 

[Sexybeast]

Don't threaten, nobody takes those well. Approach the problem with open mind and strike for win-win deals, then both can be happy and things will be that much easier.

cuts the tie hurts taiwan more than china, right?

 

[godofthunder9010]

Somehow I feel that a lock is coming soon and this topic is going to the Hall of Shame before I finish the reply...

The key there is keeping the discussion nice and civil.

now china has 706 missiles pointed at taiwan, if a war really breaks out, taiwan's eonomy will suffer more loss

so dont seperate, or suffer

That is a great example of not keeping the discussion civil and is a strong move towards the Hall of Shame. Lets not go that direction and maybe the thread stays alive.

cuts the tie hurts taiwan more than china, right?

This remains to be seen, to tell you the truth. Taiwan has relatively high quality products that can be sold almost anywhere in the world. The loss of one enormous market that is so close hurts, but it doesn't cause Taiwan's economy to spontaneously collapse. Neither side profits from severing economic ties.

 

[Sexybeast]

Somehow I feel that a lock is coming soon and this topic is going to the Hall of Shame before I finish the reply...

The key there is keeping the discussion nice and civil.

now china has 706 missiles pointed at taiwan, if a war really breaks out, taiwan's eonomy will suffer more loss

so dont seperate, or suffer

That is a great example of not keeping the discussion civil and is a strong move towards the Hall of Shame. Lets not go that direction and maybe the thread stays alive.

i am just listing a fact, there are 706 missiles (fact,), war will make taiwan's economy suffer badly (fact), dont seperate (conclusion from facts) or die (conclusion from fact)

 

[Big_Z]

I dont think Tiawan needs China at all, they can support themselves easlly.

 

[godofthunder9010]

I dont think Tiawan needs China at all.

Mutually, neither ABSOLUTELY needs the other, but both benefit from each other. What I fail to see is how China plans to sell the idea of submitting to PRC governmental rule. If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule, then you may have saved millions of dollars, millions of lives and a whole lot of rebuilding costs.

 

[Big_Z]

I dont think Tiawan needs China at all.

Mutually, neither ABSOLUTELY needs the other, but both benefit from each other. What I fail to see is how China plans to sell the idea of submitting to PRC governmental rule. If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule, then you may have saved millions of dollars, millions of lives and a whole lot of rebuilding costs.

Yea but there is nothing that China could offer to improve their way of life

 

[Sexybeast]

I dont think Tiawan needs China at all.

Mutually, neither ABSOLUTELY needs the other, but both benefit from each other. What I fail to see is how China plans to sell the idea of submitting to PRC governmental rule. If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule, then you may have saved millions of dollars, millions of lives and a whole lot of rebuilding costs.

Yea but there is nothing that China could offer to improve their way of life

look at the trade number,

half of taiwan's importing and exporting are to china,

if the tie cuts, taiwan loses 40-50 billion of trade revenue over night,

for an island of GDP of around 300 billion....50 billion U.S is not a small number, it may bring an economic depression

 

[chewie_nz]

I dont think Tiawan needs China at all.

Mutually, neither ABSOLUTELY needs the other, but both benefit from each other. What I fail to see is how China plans to sell the idea of submitting to PRC governmental rule. If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule, then you may have saved millions of dollars, millions of lives and a whole lot of rebuilding costs.

Yea but there is nothing that China could offer to improve their way of life

look at the trade number,

half of taiwan's importing and exporting are to china,

if the tie cuts, taiwan loses 40-50 billion of trade revenue over night,

for an island of GDP of around 300 billion....50 billion U.S is not a small number, it may bring an economic depression

because china is their closest neibour, if china stops trading, taiwan will find another partner, such is the way of business

 

[Sexybeast]

I dont think Tiawan needs China at all.

Mutually, neither ABSOLUTELY needs the other, but both benefit from each other. What I fail to see is how China plans to sell the idea of submitting to PRC governmental rule. If you can tell me why Taiwan would be significantly better off under the PRC's rule, then you may have saved millions of dollars, millions of lives and a whole lot of rebuilding costs.

Yea but there is nothing that China could offer to improve their way of life

look at the trade number,

half of taiwan's importing and exporting are to china,

if the tie cuts, taiwan loses 40-50 billion of trade revenue over night,

for an island of GDP of around 300 billion....50 billion U.S is not a small number, it may bring an economic depression

because china is their closest neibour, if china stops trading, taiwan will find another partner, such is the way of business

tell me how u find another partner who buy 40 billion U.S of product overnight

and how do u reorgnize the economic structure to meet the standard of ur new custumers.....

economy is not that easy , it is very complicated and closely tied with politics

 

[godofthunder9010]

The economics of it is simple enough. If trade routes are cut off, everybody loses. Isn't that always the way of things?

But that doesn't amount to ABSOLUTE need. Both China and Taiwan can survive well enough without each other. They'd be better off without that happening of course.

 

[Sexybeast]

The economics of it is simple enough. If trade routes are cut off, everybody loses. Isn't that always the way of things?

But that doesn't amount to ABSOLUTE need. Both China and Taiwan can survive well enough without each other. They'd be better off without that happening of course.

if just looking at numbers,,.....

trading with taiwan is only 5-6% of china's total trading revenue, and investment is also just a small portion within the super large chinese economy,

however, the same amount of money is huge for Taiwan, counting nearly half of Taiwan's total trading revenue, supporting countless number of taiwanese ppl's jobs , and also government programs (taxing),

and those half-million taiwanese in china who work, study and earn money.....

for them, working in china is much easier than going to some where else with a distinctively different lauguage and culture...

 

[chewie_nz]

The economics of it is simple enough. If trade routes are cut off, everybody loses. Isn't that always the way of things?

But that doesn't amount to ABSOLUTE need. Both China and Taiwan can survive well enough without each other. They'd be better off without that happening of course.

if just looking at numbers,,.....

trading with taiwan is only 5-6% of china's total trading revenue, and investment is also just a small portion within the super large chinese economy,

however, the same amount of money is huge for Taiwan, counting nearly half of Taiwan's total trading revenue, supporting countless number of taiwanese ppl's jobs , and also government programs (taxing),

and those half-million taiwanese in china who work, study and earn money.....

for them, working in china is much easier than going to some where else with a distinctively different lauguage and culture...

you forget about the other major trading partner of both these countries...the US. can china do without trade from the US

 

[Sexybeast]

does that related to this issue?

like U.S will not trade with china anymore when taiwan declares independace?

i bet americans want to sacrafice 200 billion U.S dollar partner for taiwan's own foolish action of declaring independace (U.S warned many times to taiwan to not pick a fight and start a war for U.S)

specifc number
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2004

 

[godofthunder9010]

does that related to this issue?

like U.S will not trade with china anymore when taiwan declares independace?

i bet americans want to sacrafice 200 billion U.S dollar partner for taiwan's own foolish action of declaring independace (U.S warned many times to taiwan to not pick a fight and start a war for U.S)

That would be more likely to occur the moment that China lauches a pile of missiles or invades or whatever else they decide on to punish Taiwan. Economically, the only good outcomes is either maintaining the Status Quo, reunification, or (by some act of God) China allowing Taiwan to declare independence without retaliation.

 

[chewie_nz]

status quo definately

china quietly threatning, taiwan carrying on regardless. and the US trying to straddle the fence.

don't worry china, taiwan will come back at a time of their peoples choosing

 

[Sexybeast]

does that related to this issue?

like U.S will not trade with china anymore when taiwan declares independace?

i bet americans want to sacrafice 200 billion U.S dollar partner for taiwan's own foolish action of declaring independace (U.S warned many times to taiwan to not pick a fight and start a war for U.S)

That would be more likely to occur the moment that China lauches a pile of missiles or invades or whatever else they decide on to punish Taiwan. Economically, the only good outcomes is either maintaining the Status Quo, reunification, or (by some act of God) China allowing Taiwan to declare independence without retaliation.

i doubt that will happen if U.S believes it is taiwan who provokes this mess......i doubt ur congressmen will allow an embargo on china (and also on ur self) if it is taiwanese who tries to drag U.S into a terrible war

as ur own CIA director says a few days ago, "If Beijing decides that Taiwan is taking steps toward permanent separation that exceed Beijing's tolerance, we believe China is prepared to respond with various levels of force"

the war will last a few generation and no one will be the winner (said by the same guy)

is U.S ready to sacarfice itself for Taiwan?

 

[godofthunder9010]

Nobody doubts China's resolve to attack Taiwan the moment they declare independence. I just personally believe that China doesn't need to take such a hard line stance. China and its people have committed themselves to it, and because of their culture, the cannot back down. Doing so would mean losing face and that in a time when China is just getting past a giant list of embarrassments inflicted upon them by Europe first, then Japan. China has talked themselves into believing that Taiwan is where they prove that the West will not have it way with them ever again. The problem is, it isn't the West that is doing it. Its the Taiwanese themselves that are pushing for it.