Greatest military units of all time

Doppleganger said:
The best Waffen SS Divisions were Liebstandarte and Das Reich, along with Totenkopf. In other words the 3 divisions that made up the II SS Panzer Korps. Up until mid 1944 they could be considered as elite status divisions and were well regarded by German commanders as 'fire brigade' formations. In other words, formations that could be reliably used to plug holes and prevent Soviet breakthroughs.

The Totenkopf were certainly not just fancy concentration camp guards. As part of II SS Panzer Korps they formed the main offensive wedge of 4th Panzerarmee at Kursk, and along with the other two SS divisions achieved the furthest penetration of any German formation. This was mainly due to the tactics of Hausser but make no mistake, Totenkopf in 1943 were as good as any other Panzer Division in the German Army and better than a good many of them.

Many of the other Waffen SS units you mentioned were formed towards the end of the 3rd Reich and were not of the same quality as the big 3. Hitlerjugend for example was formed by transferring a core of veteran NCO's from Liebstandarte to look after largely green troops, most of them Hitler Youth, hence the name. The Hitlerjugend did actually fight very well, but it was no elite formation.
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Thanks Doppleganger,

Totenkopf fought very well at Kursk. Not bad for a "bunch of camp thugs".
 
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Points taken Doppelganger and Errol, I suppose my natural pejudice comes forth when trying to deal intellectually with the Totenkopf Division. They certainly did deserve the moniker Elite. But their early years were spent in the concentration camps. Hence, my prejudice. I suppose I will agree to disagree with you about Hitlerjugend. True, they were formed in 43 and their NCO's and officer's came from the Leibstandarte. I hope you didn't mean that to be a criticism? But even though they were crash-coursed, they did have some Ostfront experience and seemed to gel quite amazingly. They were also in my view, the most effective fighting force in Normandy. If they had been used properly they could even have been more effective. This is no criticism of Witt or Meyer. They were both excellent commanders. I also have a prejudice of Theodor Eicke who came from the same stock as Sepp Dietrich. They were both fanatical Nazi's and basically thugs with little tactical knowledge.
 
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Papashah41 said:
True, they were formed in 43 and their NCO's and officer's came from the Leibstandarte. I hope you didn't mean that to be a criticism?
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Not at all. Leibstandarte evolved into an excellent formation. What I'm saying is that the Hitlerjugend was basically a green formation augmented by battle-hardened veterans. It was never really an elite formation in terms of training, combat experience or equipment. Despite this, they fought very well in Normandy where the type of close-quarter combat suited their aggressiveness and idealism.

The German doctrine of a mission-based orders system also ensured that they fought very effectively, despite having very inexperienced troops. So long as there existed a well trained NCO/Officer core, almost every German formation in WW2 fought above what could be expected from them simply by looking at them on paper. This was especially true after 1943, when the quality of German combat replacements rapidly began to decline. Yet the Germans still fought very well and inflicted lop-sided casualties, especially in the East. Even on the Western Front, against the Allies with their overwhelming air supremacy and logistical structure, the UK/US Armies still had a 1.2:1 kill ratio against the Germans who faced them. In other words, the Allies generally lost 12 soldiers for every 10 German soldiers killed.
 
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Doppleganger said:
The best Waffen SS Divisions were Liebstandarte and Das Reich, along with Totenkopf. In other words the 3 divisions that made up the II SS Panzer Korps. Up until mid 1944 they could be considered as elite status divisions and were well regarded by German commanders as 'fire brigade' formations. In other words, formations that could be reliably used to plug holes and prevent Soviet breakthroughs.

The Totenkopf were certainly not just fancy concentration camp guards. As part of II SS Panzer Korps they formed the main offensive wedge of 4th Panzerarmee at Kursk, and along with the other two SS divisions achieved the furthest penetration of any German formation. This was mainly due to the tactics of Hausser but make no mistake, Totenkopf in 1943 were as good as any other Panzer Division in the German Army and better than a good many of them.

Many of the other Waffen SS units you mentioned were formed towards the end of the 3rd Reich and were not of the same quality as the big 3. Hitlerjugend for example was formed by transferring a core of veteran NCO's from Liebstandarte to look after largely green troops, most of them Hitler Youth, hence the name. The Hitlerjugend did actually fight very well, but it was no elite formation.
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As far as elite status goes I would consider the LSSAH, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking to the best of the bunch. clearly intended to be elite and outstanding formations.

Hitlerjugend fought very well and could be considered elite but probably not on par with the classic Waffen SS divisions, Großdeutschland or Panzer Lehr.

Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg may or may not be considered "elite" but they were good formations and I am still debating with myself about if or if not they can be considered "elite".

It is also amazing how many people think the Waffen SS as whole was elite. Most of the units were average and some were even sub-standard.
 
Easy-8 said:
As far as elite status goes I would consider the LSSAH, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking to the best of the bunch. clearly intended to be elite and outstanding formations.

Hitlerjugend fought very well and could be considered elite but probably not on par with the classic Waffen SS divisions, Großdeutschland or Panzer Lehr.

Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg may or may not be considered "elite" but they were good formations and I am still debating with myself about if or if not they can be considered "elite".

It is also amazing how many people think the Waffen SS as whole was elite. Most of the units were average and some were even sub-standard.
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I agree with the Divisions you mention as elite and if not elite, at least above average. I still think the Hitlerjugend was elite and no other division could have done better in Normandy.

And yes, many divisions were lousy, especially the Muslim Divisions and some of the other East European Divisions, which I can't name at the moment.

Note. I'm pretty sure GrossDeutchland was not an SS division.
 
ComsDown said:
The Finnish Army during the Winter War against the USSR in 1939-40. :pray:
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Very good benefit ratio..missing people are almost all dead too..

fdccax.jpg
 
Radar said:
Very good benefit ratio..missing people are almost all dead too..

fdccax.jpg
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Stats are fun and they do give us a better understanding of the calibre of troops involved.

You are speaking of the amazing military determination of the Finnish people to stop Stalin's armies in their tracks for a short while. Mannerheim was one of the most gifted commanders any country would want. The spirit of the Finns themselves was mythic and if I dont mind saying your use of what you had on hand was inspired. Did you know, the Molotov cocktail was a Finnish invention. When a country is up against a bully it's citizens will pull together and fight to the death.

The initial battles certainly showed what the quality was of each sides troops. The average Russian soldier at the time had no wish to be battling with a neighbor and their performance showed it.
The Finnish troops on the other hand were fighting for their existence, or so they thought. As I said earlier the Finn's fighting ability is now mythic.


The original question was who do you believe the best fighting units are.

All I believe is that only in the heart of a volunteer can we in the democracies defeat the thugs in this world. The best units are made up of men and women who volunteer their lives to the safe-keeping of others. If that sounds too sappy for some------To Bad..
 
for WW2 Germany
1st SS pz dv Leibstandarte
2nd SS pz dz Das Reich
3rd SS pz Totenkopf
5th SS pz dz Wiking
9th SS pz Hohenstauffen
10th SS pz Frundsberg
12th SS pz Hitlerjugend
Grossdeutchland

Napoleon's Imperial guard
Napoleon's Grande Armee (while in camp at boulogne- post austerlitz, before heavy losses at Eylau)

Romans (many eras)

Greek-Spartan-Macedonian hoplites (up though Alexander the great) perhaps the "toughest" infantry of all time

Mongols - perhaps the most "effective" or "successful" armies of all time

Underrated - unmentioned
Swedes before-under Charles XII , tremendous in the charge utilizing steel weapons after firing muskets

-RG
 
WWI:
3rd Division(American) at the Battle of the Marne(The second battle)

Pre Middle Ages:
The Byzantine army under Justiane I
 
Legion XIX under julius caeser, served the whole gaullic campaign invasion of britain, 2nd and 3rd civil war. Deadliest and favorite of caeser, they won his battles for him
 
Out of the top of my head, when I read the title, I thought "The 75th Rangers".

If they have one thing, then its the best damned motto out there [Rangers lead the way!]
 
Easy-8 said:
Pre Middle Ages

- Persians under Cyrus the Great
- Spartans at Thermopylae
- Macedonians Army under Alexander the Great
- Romans in almost every war/battle they fought
- Carthaginian Army under Hannibal
- Visigothic heavy Cavalry at Adrianople in 378 and Chalons in 451
- The slave rebellion in Rome under Spartacus
- Germanic tribial fighters at Teutoburg Forest
- Huns under Attila

Middle Ages

- Vikings from 793 to 1066
- Koreans during the First Goryeo-Khitan War
- Normans under William the Conqueror
- Samurai in Japan
- Muslims under Saladin during the 1st crusade
- Knight Templar during the 1st crusade
- Mongols under Genghis Khan
- Scottish Army during their war for independence
- Welsh Longbowmen
- Teutonic Knights and Poles/Lithuanians in their various wars with each other

Post Middle Ages

- Samurai in Japan (again)
- Polish Hussars at Kircholm
- Russians under Peter the Great
- Prussians under Frederick the Great

Colonal/Napoleonic/WWI/other era

- The British (built the worlds largest oversea’s empire enough said)
- Roger’s Rangers during The French and Indian War
- Continental Army during the American Revolution
- South African Boers during the wars with Britian
- French Grand Armee under Napoleon
- Napoleon’s Imperial Guard
- Russian Winter (during Napoleon’s invasion :))
- Texans at the Alamo
- Americans during the Mexican-American War
- Confederate Army of Northern Virginia during US Civil War
- Confederate Horsemen during US Civil War
- Stonewall Brigade during US Civil War
- Union XIV Corps at Chickamauga
- Union V Corps during the Seven Days Battle
- Prussians during Bismarck’s reign
- Japanese Navy during the Russo-Japanese War
- Serbs during WWI
- German 8th Army
- German Sturmtruppen
- French in WWI
- The US “Lost Battalion” in Argonne Forest
- Marines at Belleau Wood
- Poles during the Soviet/Polish War

WWII

- Finns in Winter/Continuation/Lapland War
- Wehrmacht in France and low countries during the 1940 invasion
- RAF during the Battle of Britian
- Afrika Korps and Desert Rats in the African theater
- Soviet Snipers at Stalingrad
- 62nd Army at Stalingrad (and later on as 8th Tank Army)
- II SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov, Prochorovka and Market Garden
- 82nd Airborne in Italian and Normandy Campiagns
- FallshirmJaeger at Mount Cassino
- Großdeutschland on the Eastern Front
- 12th SS Panzer Division at Caen
- British Paras during Market Garden
- US Marines in Pacific Theater
- US Navy at Midway
- Japanese in Malaysia and Philippines
- 1st Special Service Force in Italy
- US Army Rangers at Normandy
- 101st Airborne at Bastogne
- Tuskegee Airmen in the air war over Europe
- 6th Ranger Battalion in the Pacific War

Post WWII

- 1st Marine Division at Inch’on and Chosin
- Chinese PVA during the first phase offensive in the Korean War
- US 2nd Infantry Division during the May Massacre
- 5th Special Forces Group in Vietnam
- Aussie/NZ SASR during the Vietnam War
- IDF in the Six Day War and Yom Kippur War
- SAS/Paras in the Falkland War
- Spetsnaz in Afghanistan
- Iraqi Republican Guard in Iraq/Iran War (although they didn’t do to well later on…)
- Task Force Ranger in Somilia
- Chechens in the First Chechen War
- Task Force 121 in GWOT

Various gullrilia movements threwout the ages

- Scotish in early part of the war to free Scotland from the English
- Spainish fighting against Napoleon
- Minutemen during the American revolution
- South African Boers during the wars with Britian
- Cubans fighting alongside Castro
- PAVN/VC/Viet Minh in the Vietnam conflict
- Hezbollah during the Civil War in Lebenon
- Afghan tribial fighters (during the Soviet invasion)
- Chechens in the second war with Russia
- Iraqi insurgents (well some of them at least)
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I saw by all the posts that many where added, Great! From all that needless sacrifice of many, if you do a count of all lives lost it would be mind bottling.
A Gunnery SGT told me once there's no Glory in War, just needless Horrific devastation and human Carnage.

Spanish fighting against Napoleon. Just a headsup Spanish is a language. Spaniards is the people from Spain.


Lets no forget the Conquistadors 300 Vs 600,000 Indian Warriors.


Lets not forget the Canadian Black Watch in WWI or the infamous 13th Battalion and WW II, Korea.



Or the American Civil War! I was reading In one day of Battle 15,000 casualties! A waste of Live. In "Gettysburg" a total of over 51,000 casualties. Wow!
 
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