EagleHammer
Active member
How About the Swedish karoliner, in the great northern war.
Greatest military units of all time
Supostat
Active member
I think in the First War Chechens were more successful and effective than in Second one.
ray:
LeEnfield
Active member
I think that various units on the British side in the North Africa Campaign of WW2 are worth a thought. Popskis Private Army, LRDG & the SAS. They roamed far and wide behind enemy lines and drive down the runways of the German airfields shooting up all the aircraft there. Also the intelligence reports that they sent back of troops movements hundreds to rear of the German lines.
84RFK
Active member
For some reason I have always carried great admiration for the Polish and French troops who fought at Narvik april-may 1940, they performed and achieved very well under climate and conditions they never had never experienced before.
Not to mention the feelings old Norwegian people up there still have for the crews of the ORP Blyskawica and the ORP Grom, of wich the latter was nicknamed "Die Menschjäger" (manhunter) due to the fact the crew always had some few grenades to spare when a single German appeared in their sights.
Not to mention the feelings old Norwegian people up there still have for the crews of the ORP Blyskawica and the ORP Grom, of wich the latter was nicknamed "Die Menschjäger" (manhunter) due to the fact the crew always had some few grenades to spare when a single German appeared in their sights.
other great military units (so as to offset the predominantly Western slant):
Mughal Army under Emperor Akbar
Mughal Army under Babur
Delhi Sultante's Pashtun/Turkish army under General Zafar Khan that defeated the Mongol invasion attempt of North India.
Mirwais Khan Hotak who invaded and defeated the Safavid Persians thus ending their reign.
Nadir Shah of Persia led one of the most successful military campaigns in Asia.
The Jezail and other Pashtun militia, guerillas, and gunmen who gave the British a black eye and the worst Victorian military defeat on record during the First Anglo-Afghan war.
And the Sikhs under Maharaja Ranjit Singh who carved a huge chunk of land out for their own empire.
Mughal Army under Emperor Akbar
Mughal Army under Babur
Delhi Sultante's Pashtun/Turkish army under General Zafar Khan that defeated the Mongol invasion attempt of North India.
Mirwais Khan Hotak who invaded and defeated the Safavid Persians thus ending their reign.
Nadir Shah of Persia led one of the most successful military campaigns in Asia.
The Jezail and other Pashtun militia, guerillas, and gunmen who gave the British a black eye and the worst Victorian military defeat on record during the First Anglo-Afghan war.
And the Sikhs under Maharaja Ranjit Singh who carved a huge chunk of land out for their own empire.
mocco
Active member
There were more NZ troops in Vietnam, don't forget 161 arty which fired in support of 6RAR were a kiwi mob..........
New Zealand's commitment:
Washington pressured New Zealand to expand its commitment. It finally sent two infantry companies (V and W Companies, RNZIR), an SAS detachment (4 Troop, NZSAS), and a tri-service medical team (1st New Zealand Services Medical Team). About 60 personnel were made available for service in 1st Australian Logistic Support Group, including two nurses who served in 1st Australian Field Hospital. The peak strength of V Force was 543 men and women. From 1966 New Zealand units were integrated within the 1st Australian Task Force, the gunners joining an Australian field regiment, the infantrymen forming part of an Anzac battalion and the SAS serving in an Australian SAS squadron. Most were based at Nui Dat in Phuoc Tuy province. A small number of RNZAF personnel also served as helicopter pilots or forward air controllers.
Alongside its military effort, New Zealand also tried to alleviate suffering among the civilian population caused by the war. A surgical team served at the provincial hospital in Qui Nhon in Binh Dinh province from 1963 to 1975. The New Zealand Red Cross also sent teams to South Vietnam to assist refugees between 1968 and 1975. (taken from vietnamwar.govt.nz)
Aussies being forgotten by the rest of the world, well I think history has shown a bias towards lumping all Commonwealth forces, (of every nation) as British, maybe they couldn't be bothered with the extra typing.... ;-)
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AussieNick
Forum Digger
Ah good work on that one. I wasn't aware of a troop of NZSAS getting in there. Truth be told I wasn't thinking about gunners or medics, I'm kinda infantry biased in my thinking.
Ah the good old Commonwealth forces panacea. It covers nearly everybody when you think about it. GBR, AUS, NZ, RSA, CAN, IND etc etc
3rd SS Division Totenkopf. They did some terrible things but a great fighting division of WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_Division_Totenkopf
Doppleganger
Active member
No more terrible than many regular German, Soviet and even Western Allied armies on occasion did.
Sniper6221
New Member
1st MARDIV, Guadalcanal, Suicide Creek, Battle of Peleliu, Inchon, Seoul, Chosin......
True, it has always interested me how people forget how bad the Soviets and regular forces were. I think the western allies could generally be considered and fairly so to be the good guys - although nothing can be seen in black and white.
Bacara
Active member
you must also look at it this way, many russians saw their homes and entire cities leveled by the germans, and their mother and sisters raped and their fathers sent to death camps. So they were acting like that because the germans did it to them, but i not saying they were right to do that.
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Well the Soviets commited a ton of nasty crimes against people other than Germans so that kinda undermines your whole arguement.
Yes Doppleganger,they certainly weren't on their own as far as war crimes were concerned.They were certainly fanatical in their fighting and were always used to plug holes and launch "rescue" attacks. I read a book about them called "Deaths Head". It was a real eye opener.
Totenkopf War Crimes
The division's original cadre was drawn from the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards), as opposed to the other Germanic SS Divisions which were formed from the SS-Verfügungstruppe.
The members of this unit were trained and led by Nazi commanders such as Theodor Eicke, Max Simon and Helmut Becker. Eicke instilled ruthlessness as a necessity in his men, and during the original training at Dachau, the troops commonly spent time guarding inmates at the nearby concentration camp. The three SS-TV Standartes which were to form the Totenkopf division saw action in Poland, where some say its soldiers were involved in war crimes[citation needed].
Civilians killed on the spot after their capture during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The Training and Replacement Battalion of the 3rd SS Division was involved in the suppression of the 1943 Uprising.
The only documented example of war crimes against the division came under Friedrich Jeckeln where, several days into the Fall Gelb campaign, Totenkopf men committed a war crime. 14./III.Bat/Totenkopf Infanterie Regiment-2 executed 97 British troops of the Norfolk Regiment at the town of Le Paradis. The commander, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein (Hauptsturmführer at the time of the massacre), had accused the Norfolk Regiment of using dum-dum ammunition and therefore being in violation of the Hague Convention of 1899. However, this allegation seems unlikely because all small arms ammunition used by British and German armed forces during the conflict was fully metal jacketed. Fully metal jacketed bullets are, though highly effective and deadly, legal according to international laws. After the war, Knöchlein himself was found guilty of war crimes and was hanged.
The Jürgen Stroop Report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lists the "Training and Replacement Battalion" of the 3rd SS as involved in the suppression of the uprising of April-May 1943. See [3]
However, by the end of 1942 the division had experienced virtually a complete turnover in personnel. The high casualty rates meant by late 1943 virtually none of the original cadre were left. However, while the division's record in the brutal Eastern Front fighting to follow is quite clean, its reputation lingered. In 1945 the members of the division were turned over by the Americans to the Soviets after their surrender at Linz. This implied a virtual death sentence: its members were sent to their deaths in camps of the Gulag with extreme hard living conditions, or instantly shot without trial. Only few of them surviv
Totenkopf War Crimes
The division's original cadre was drawn from the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards), as opposed to the other Germanic SS Divisions which were formed from the SS-Verfügungstruppe.
The members of this unit were trained and led by Nazi commanders such as Theodor Eicke, Max Simon and Helmut Becker. Eicke instilled ruthlessness as a necessity in his men, and during the original training at Dachau, the troops commonly spent time guarding inmates at the nearby concentration camp. The three SS-TV Standartes which were to form the Totenkopf division saw action in Poland, where some say its soldiers were involved in war crimes[citation needed].
Civilians killed on the spot after their capture during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The Training and Replacement Battalion of the 3rd SS Division was involved in the suppression of the 1943 Uprising.
The only documented example of war crimes against the division came under Friedrich Jeckeln where, several days into the Fall Gelb campaign, Totenkopf men committed a war crime. 14./III.Bat/Totenkopf Infanterie Regiment-2 executed 97 British troops of the Norfolk Regiment at the town of Le Paradis. The commander, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein (Hauptsturmführer at the time of the massacre), had accused the Norfolk Regiment of using dum-dum ammunition and therefore being in violation of the Hague Convention of 1899. However, this allegation seems unlikely because all small arms ammunition used by British and German armed forces during the conflict was fully metal jacketed. Fully metal jacketed bullets are, though highly effective and deadly, legal according to international laws. After the war, Knöchlein himself was found guilty of war crimes and was hanged.
The Jürgen Stroop Report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lists the "Training and Replacement Battalion" of the 3rd SS as involved in the suppression of the uprising of April-May 1943. See [3]
However, by the end of 1942 the division had experienced virtually a complete turnover in personnel. The high casualty rates meant by late 1943 virtually none of the original cadre were left. However, while the division's record in the brutal Eastern Front fighting to follow is quite clean, its reputation lingered. In 1945 the members of the division were turned over by the Americans to the Soviets after their surrender at Linz. This implied a virtual death sentence: its members were sent to their deaths in camps of the Gulag with extreme hard living conditions, or instantly shot without trial. Only few of them surviv
Papashah41
Active member
Yes Doppleganger,they certainly weren't on their own as far as war crimes were concerned.They were certainly fanatical in their fighting and were always used to plug holes and launch "rescue" attacks. I read a book about them called "Deaths Head". It was a real eye opener.
Totenkopf War Crimes
The division's original cadre was drawn from the SS-Totenkopfverbände (concentration camp guards), as opposed to the other Germanic SS Divisions which were formed from the SS-Verfügungstruppe.
The members of this unit were trained and led by Nazi commanders such as Theodor Eicke, Max Simon and Helmut Becker. Eicke instilled ruthlessness as a necessity in his men, and during the original training at Dachau, the troops commonly spent time guarding inmates at the nearby concentration camp. The three SS-TV Standartes which were to form the Totenkopf division saw action in Poland, where some say its soldiers were involved in war crimes[citation needed].
Civilians killed on the spot after their capture during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The Training and Replacement Battalion of the 3rd SS Division was involved in the suppression of the 1943 Uprising.
The only documented example of war crimes against the division came under Friedrich Jeckeln where, several days into the Fall Gelb campaign, Totenkopf men committed a war crime. 14./III.Bat/Totenkopf Infanterie Regiment-2 executed 97 British troops of the Norfolk Regiment at the town of Le Paradis. The commander, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein (Hauptsturmführer at the time of the massacre), had accused the Norfolk Regiment of using dum-dum ammunition and therefore being in violation of the Hague Convention of 1899. However, this allegation seems unlikely because all small arms ammunition used by British and German armed forces during the conflict was fully metal jacketed. Fully metal jacketed bullets are, though highly effective and deadly, legal according to international laws. After the war, Knöchlein himself was found guilty of war crimes and was hanged.
The Jürgen Stroop Report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising lists the "Training and Replacement Battalion" of the 3rd SS as involved in the suppression of the uprising of April-May 1943. See [3]
However, by the end of 1942 the division had experienced virtually a complete turnover in personnel. The high casualty rates meant by late 1943 virtually none of the original cadre were left. However, while the division's record in the brutal Eastern Front fighting to follow is quite clean, its reputation lingered. In 1945 the members of the division were turned over by the Americans to the Soviets after their surrender at Linz. This implied a virtual death sentence: its members were sent to their deaths in camps of the Gulag with extreme hard living conditions, or instantly shot without trial. Only few of them surviv
The Totenkopf were just fancy concentration camp guards. And Theodor Eike was a stupid anti-semitic thug. There were better SS units. Leibstandarte, Hitlerjugend, Viking, Hohenstauffen, Frundsberg and Gotz Von Berlichingen to name a few. Not every Waffen SS commander or officer was a fanatical Nazi. Paul Hausser and Wilhelm Bittrich were honorable gentlemen, who would never have dreamt of commiting war crimes.
Doppleganger
Active member
The best Waffen SS Divisions were Liebstandarte and Das Reich, along with Totenkopf. In other words the 3 divisions that made up the II SS Panzer Korps. Up until mid 1944 they could be considered as elite status divisions and were well regarded by German commanders as 'fire brigade' formations. In other words, formations that could be reliably used to plug holes and prevent Soviet breakthroughs.
The Totenkopf were certainly not just fancy concentration camp guards. As part of II SS Panzer Korps they formed the main offensive wedge of 4th Panzerarmee at Kursk, and along with the other two SS divisions achieved the furthest penetration of any German formation. This was mainly due to the tactics of Hausser but make no mistake, Totenkopf in 1943 were as good as any other Panzer Division in the German Army and better than a good many of them.
Many of the other Waffen SS units you mentioned were formed towards the end of the 3rd Reich and were not of the same quality as the big 3. Hitlerjugend for example was formed by transferring a core of veteran NCO's from Liebstandarte to look after largely green troops, most of them Hitler Youth, hence the name. The Hitlerjugend did actually fight very well, but it was no elite formation.