Could Germany have defeated Russia?

[BritinBritain]

Because Italy didn't immediately take Malta.....and yes, they should have done a Franco.

The Italians never took Malta, it was a close run thing, but Air Vice Marshall Keith Parks AOC husbanded what RAF Squadrons that were available as well as he did during the Battle of Britain.

At one time, Malta was the most heavily bombed place on earth.

 

[George]

The Italians never took Malta,.

yeah, I know, just saying that should have been the first thing they did.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

The Germans faced huge casualties when they invaded Crete and that might explain why they did not invade Malta. However, did the Italians have the capabilities of an amphibian assault and an airborne assault on Malta? I have never been to Malta and the few pictures and videos I have seen don't depict any beaches suited for an amphibian assault.

 

[BritinBritain]

The Germans faced huge casualties when they invaded Crete and that might explain why they did not invade Malta. However, did the Italians have the capabilities of an amphibian assault and an airborne assault on Malta? I have never been to Malta and the few pictures and videos I have seen don't depict any beaches suited for an amphibian assault.

You are quite correct. I was stationed on Malta at LUQA in1970. There are a few beaches on Mlta but non that I would suggest were suitable for an invasion, as far as I can remember it would have been a very narrow beachhead.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

You are quite correct. I was stationed on Malta at LUQA in1970. There are a few beaches on Mlta but non that I would suggest were suitable for an invasion, as far as I can remember it would have been a very narrow beachhead.

It must have been quite nice to be stationed on Malta. I can imagine worse places than Malta.

Do you know if the Italians military had enough of airplanes for an airborne operation of that size? It seems an amphibious operations wouldn't work. Even, though. airborne forces need to get support from other parts of their military (navy, air force, army)

 

[MontyB]

You are quite correct. I was stationed on Malta at LUQA in1970. There are a few beaches on Mlta but non that I would suggest were suitable for an invasion, as far as I can remember it would have been a very narrow beachhead.

That problem worked both ways though as there was only so many personnel that could be stationed on Malta due to supply capability.

It would have come down to who had the better capacity to resupply their forces, the Axis had the shorter more protected lines while the allies had the greater capacity.

Do you know if the Italians military had enough of airplanes for an airborne operation of that size? It seems an amphibious operations wouldn't work. Even, though. airborne forces need to get support from other parts of their military (navy, air force, army)

The answer is no they didn't, they may have been able to scrounge up 150 suitable aircraft and about 500 more smaller ones

 

[George]

The Japanese ran 4-5 transports ashore to land re-inforcements on Guadalcanal, there's some way they could have gotten troops ashore.

 

[MontyB]

On paper the Italian Navy was more than a match for the Royal Navy in the Mediteranean, the problem was that much like most of the Italian armed forces during WW2 they didn't want to fight.
Had the Italians actually gone to war things would have been vastly different for the Axis.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

This thread has turned into a "what if" speculations. I like it when there is not really a right or wrong answer to any of the pondering that occur in threads like this. I am glad to see the forum is somewhat waking up.

One event that might have changed the course of history is the lack of coordination between Germany and Japan. If Japan had been able to "fix" the Soviet forces in the East. It might have "helped" the Germans to capture Moscow. However, I doubt the Russian has quit fighting with the fall of Moscow. The Russians had adopted to the new situation and acted on it

 

[MontyB]

This thread has turned into a "what if" speculations. I like it when there is not really a right or wrong answer to any of the pondering that occur in threads like this. I am glad to see the forum is somewhat waking up.

One event that might have changed the course of history is the lack of coordination between Germany and Japan. If Japan had been able to "fix" the Soviet forces in the East. It might have "helped" the Germans to capture Moscow. However, I doubt the Russian has quit fighting with the fall of Moscow. The Russians had adopted to the new situation and acted on it

The thing I have about the Japan/Russian scenarios is that few of them make any military sense from a Japanese point of view.

Lets ignore realities of previous Japanese/Russian skirmishes that ended in the Japanese getting their butts kicked and assume a Japanese assault on Russia was successful they would have multiple hundreds of kilometres of frozen tundra to get through just to capture anything useful, if you think the Russian Front was miserable from a German point of view I cant imagine how bad invading Siberia would have been from a Japanese perspective.

Now to jump back to some facts.

Of the 14 Eastern divisions transfered West between August and December 1941, two were under strength cavalry divisions, 3 were Tank/Mechanised divisions that had only been formed in April 1941, the rest were Rifle Divisions of which three arrived in August and September and were sent to 11th Army defending the southern approaches to Leningrad or 7th Army defending the far north against the Finns.
Only six rifle divisions arrived in October and only four of these went to any Army that could be even remotely linked to defending Moscow against Army Group Centre.

Over all their combat performance was regarded as "average".

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

The thing I have about the Japan/Russian scenarios is that few of them make any military sense from a Japanese point of view.

Lets ignore realities of previous Japanese/Russian skirmishes that ended in the Japanese getting their butts kicked and assume a Japanese assault on Russia was successful they would have multiple hundreds of kilometres of frozen tundra to get through just to capture anything useful, if you think the Russian Front was miserable from a German point of view I cant imagine how bad invading Siberia would have been from a Japanese perspective.

Now to jump back to some facts.

Of the 14 Eastern divisions transfered West between August and December 1941, two were under strength cavalry divisions, 3 were Tank/Mechanised divisions that had only been formed in April 1941, the rest were Rifle Divisions of which three arrived in August and September and were sent to 11th Army defending the southern approaches to Leningrad or 7th Army defending the far north against the Finns.
Only six rifle divisions arrived in October and only four of these went to any Army that could be even remotely linked to defending Moscow against Army Group Centre.

Over all their combat performance was regarded as "average".

The japs didn't need to attack Siberia to "fix" the Siberian forces. It's enough to have forces moving around on their side of the border. When the Russian realized the Japs wouldn't attack them there, they were able to move a huge number of divisions to the defense of Moscow.

 

[marcus melky]

I wish to jion foreign military

 

[marcus melky]

I love the military from when I was a kid we had a neighbour who was a military man so he inspired me .But in my country joining the military is through bribery and corruption .Just wish if any one could help me

 

[George]

I wish to jion foreign military

I love the military from when I was a kid we had a neighbour who was a military man so he inspired me .But in my country joining the military is through bribery and corruption .Just wish if any one could help me

Wrong section...

 

[lljadw]

From a defensive point of view the USSR was invincible in 1941 .

 

[MontyB]

The japs didn't need to attack Siberia to "fix" the Siberian forces. It's enough to have forces moving around on their side of the border. When the Russian realized the Japs wouldn't attack them there, they were able to move a huge number of divisions to the defense of Moscow.

I understand that however I would like to point out that the "huge" number of divisions was in fact a total of 14 divisions, mostly newly formed of which only 4 were anywhere near Moscow to take part in its defense.

The notion of Siberian divisions arriving to defend Moscow in the nick of time is just a myth albeit an enduring one.

As far as the war in the East goes we would be better off discussing the Lodzen decision than the influence of the "Siberian" divisions.

This thread has turned into a "what if" speculations. I like it when there is not really a right or wrong answer to any of the pondering that occur in threads like this. I am glad to see the forum is somewhat waking up.

I agree, I think I probably should have given it a better title, would be nice to encourage a few others to take part though.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

I understand that however I would like to point out that the "huge" number of divisions was in fact a total of 14 divisions, mostly newly formed of which only 4 were anywhere near Moscow to take part in its defense.

The notion of Siberian divisions arriving to defend Moscow in the nick of time is just a myth albeit an enduring one.

As far as the war in the East goes we would be better off discussing the Lodzen decision than the influence of the "Siberian" divisions.



I agree, I think I probably should have given it a better title, would be nice to encourage a few others to take part though.

We have new members, I hope they take part in the discussions. George mentioned Franco and I have a pondering about what if Spain had intervened on the Axis side. The British had most likely lost Gibraltar and that have changed things in the Mediterranean.

 

[MontyB]

We have new members, I hope they take part in the discussions. George mentioned Franco and I have a pondering about what if Spain had intervened on the Axis side. The British had most likely lost Gibraltar and that have changed things in the Mediterranean.

The question is what would control of the Mediterranean done for the Axis?

It would have made things slightly more difficult shipping materials from India to the UK but outside of that it would have had little affect however for the Germans it would have opened up yet another neverending frontline with the Allies falling back to massive supply bases in both India and South Africa.

I am inclined to agree with George that the best thing Italy could have done was emulate Franco and allow those who wanted to fight with Germany to do so but otherwise stay out of the war.

 

[lljadw]

For Germany the participation of Spain/Turkey,etc on the war would have been a disaster .

 

[MontyB]

I think I agree, as it was Spain provided a lot of tacit support without being at risk of attack.

Turkey's involvement could have been interesting had they entered in early 1942 or in support of Case Blue but outside that I really don't think Turkey could have helped the Axis cause significantly.